Using a 22LR for Sniping

Jamie Young · January 20, 2002, 09:30 PM

I know the Soviets used them in WWII.
What kind of range were they using them at?
From what I've read about the Soviets They KILLED a lot of people with these things.

I know your not going to knock anyone over at 200yds.
I know your not going to penetrate threw 1/2 an inch of steel.
But your never going to run out of ammo, and its going to be hard as heck to tell where the shooting came from.

Do you think the 22LR can still be used for Sniping in Warfare?

Gewehr98 · January 20, 2002, 09:32 PM

Since they use modified, sound-suppressed Ruger 10/22's to take the fight out of the rock-throwers in the Golan Heights and West Bank.

Jamie Young · January 20, 2002, 09:35 PM

No Way!!!

Wow thats pretty amazing. If you used steel bullets does the 22LR have the energy to penetrate flak jackets?

Navy joe · January 20, 2002, 09:57 PM

I don't have anyone that I feel needs shooting...right now, but I would like to get the long range shooting experience on whats normally available to me. 200 yds. I really want to get a bolt gun built around aguila's 60gr load, just as soon as I can aquire a reliable source of the ammo. I have a hunch that with practice you could get to 300yds and still be lethal. Suppressed, if that were a legal, option I do believe one could disappear. Damn scary in an urban enviro.

ninenot · January 20, 2002, 10:00 PM

Whaddya mean, Flak Jackets? If you're good with a tuned .22LR, you shoot through the eyeball, just as does the Mossad with .22LR pistols (!!!!!) Up to 100 yards should be no sweat with a mid-grade target upgrade. Up to 200 with a REALLY good upgrade (if you happen to have about $2K to spend on a REALLY good upgrade....)

Jamie Young · January 20, 2002, 10:03 PM

www.wideners.com had 60gr 22LR ammo for sale a few months ago. If the bullet can travel a Mile I'm sure you could hit someone at 400yds if you were good enough. I think your talking about an 8ft bullet drop at that distance but with NO wind and Sub Sonic ammo You've got No worries. You could keep firing until you hit someone. And they'd all be standing around wondering why everyone is getting stung by bees

Jamie Young · January 20, 2002, 10:05 PM

Navy Joe,
If your ever up for a trip, we got a 500yd Rifle range up this way. Several of us from PA are getting together next Sunday with 22LR rifles and Pistols. I own a 22 Magnum bolt action and I am planning on seeing what kind of groups I can get with it at 400yds. Just bought a little Tasco Tactical scope for it too.

C.R.Sam · January 20, 2002, 10:53 PM

.22 LR at those extended ranges won't have much punch. Likely not enough to disable the target.

100 yds in, in the hands of a marksman would be lethal.

Sam

Jody Hudson · January 20, 2002, 10:59 PM

I will have plenty of Quik-Shok to bring to the shoot for long range folks, which is very fast and fragments on impact, even at long ranges from what I've found.

I've shot the long heavy bullets but don't care for the substantial bullet drop. I like it fast, light and "explosive" instead of slow, heavy and penetrating -- as I'm not that great at figuring distance and trajectory.

But, with a good trajectory guide pasted to your rifle and a good laser range-finder, the 60 grains could be very interesting!!!!

Jody Hudson · January 20, 2002, 11:01 PM

Perhaps we could bring some penetration targets. Would that be possible SodaPop?

If so, what sort would be acceptable? The only thing that comes to mind is newspaper folded to a substantial thickness and taped to the target.

dZ · January 20, 2002, 11:16 PM

22lr biathalon rifle meets sniper squad:
http://club.guns.ru/eng/sv99.html

orlando5 · January 21, 2002, 12:35 AM

Quote:

.22 LR at those extended ranges won't have much punch. Likely not enough to disable the target.

100 yds in, in the hands of a marksman would be lethal.

It might be lethal at 100 yards but I won’t bet my life on it. We shoot .22lr a lot at our outdoor range. At that range it won’t penetrate an alloy US penny. What it does it will push the penny through the cardboard that hold it or the penny will deflect the .22lr bullet. The penny does bend or crack when the bullet is deflected. Please note that we only use Federal and Remington .22lr lead hp. These loads are sold at Wal-Mart.

Jamie Young · January 21, 2002, 01:06 AM

Well I'm trying to find out what distance Soviet Snipers were taking shots at???????????????????????????????????

Hey, The box says "Lethal Up to a Mile" on it

I read 2yrs ago a Woman sun bathing in New York was shot in the stomach by a 22LR from an Unknown distance. She thought she was stung by a bee until she started bleeding really bad.

Jody Hudson- We could use news Paper at this range or even just a few pieces of Plywood. If you want to make something up feel free to bring it.

It might take awhile before we actually hit it though

Whats the velocity of the ammo your bringing? I can print out some Ballistics data as a Cheat Sheet and bring it to the range.

Jamie Young · January 21, 2002, 01:12 AM

Lets not forget with the Recoil of a 22LR, sending more than a few rounds into the same target with something like a Ruger 10/22, is extremely possible in a short period of time.

Someone with a kind of nack for tall tales told me the Military used the 22Magnum for sniping. Anyone know if thats true?

I'll have Mine with me next week if Jody and I do some penetration experiments.

Redlg155 · January 21, 2002, 01:20 AM

Just get a .300 whisper and quietly sing to em!

I'm not sure about sniping at long distances with a .22, but I hear they make great "Hush Puppies"

Good SHooting
RED

Deadman · January 21, 2002, 06:19 AM

From an article about the Soviet invasion of Chechnya during 2000 -

" 'They (Chechens) control the night here,' a junior officer, who only identified himself as Vitaly, told SOF. " I don't know any soldier who likes to be on the night patrol or manning a forward checkpoint at night. The bandits are deadly."

We'd heard from a number of grunts that a favourite tactic of Chechen snipers was to shoot Russian soldiers in the groin or hip. Russian body armour was notorious for not coming equipped with drop down groin protection and the Chechens probably reveled in that knowledge.

" If I got shot down there then I'd still be twice as big as you," one soldier joked with a friend, overhearing our conversation.

We all knew that in any other place such a comment would have been easily laughed off as just another episode of foxhole humour. In Chechnya, however, it just masked a sense of absolute terror that resided just below the surface in every grunt's mind. "

I later heard that the Chechen snipers also favoured suppressed .22 rifles making it very difficult for Russian troops to pinpoint there location.

So with a suppressed .22 rifle there is no need to try and get a head shot or try and punch threw body armour. Just aim for the groin.... OUCH !

After all, hands up how many of you would want to continue fighting a war after being almost castrated by a .22?

ReverendHobo · January 21, 2002, 06:25 AM

Quote:

After all, hands up how many of you would want to continue fighting a war after being almost castrated by a .22?

And what else would there be to do?

Jody Hudson · January 21, 2002, 08:08 AM

SodaPop, the published data for Quik-Shok is 32 grains at 1550 fps but another fellow claims that it is close to 1900 out of a long rifle barell. My son found it to be just under 1800 fps with his H&K .22 rifle, (which used to be mine).

Here is some published .22 data.
http://www.volny.cz/buchtik/Revo/bal...m#QUIK-SHOK%20(CCI)

Here is some more data:
http://www.22ammo.com/aguila.html

I will also try to scare up some Super Max Aquilla that is 30 grains at 1750 published.

Jody Hudson · January 21, 2002, 08:11 AM

And my BIG .22 is the 5.45 x 39 if that is allowable at the shoot...

Data on the Big .22 is below...

http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-October01.html

Ewok_Guy · January 21, 2002, 10:44 AM

For close range sniping, hell yes!

If all my shots were going to be under 100 yards, I would PREFER my model 60. Just take head shots.

dZ · January 21, 2002, 12:13 PM

from my above link:

Quote:

In fact, my recent research on sniper rifles developed by various companies around the globe reveals that the "sharps" industry has a strong tendency towards larger calibers: .338 Lapua Magnum, 12.7 mm and even 20 mm. SV-99 is probably the only true sniper rifle with the bore's diameter of 5.6 mm only. I would mislead readers if I'd say that sniper rifles in .22LR has never been in practice. I was told by Vietnam veterans that Viet Cong fighters used old TOZ 5.6 mm plinkers as weapons of close combat and sniper rifles successfully deployed in towns. Similar reports I had from the snipers who took part in the actions in Chechnya: Standard hunting .22LR "Sobol" rifles were used in the "snipers' war" in Grozniy. Smart guys, they used plastic bottles with tiny holes in the bottom and attached to rifle's muzzle as silencers! They said, such rifles were compact, accurate at close ranges. Fired from internal premises (a room, a hideout, etc.) small-caliber rifles produced very low sound blast that could hardly be heard at a distance of over 100 meters. Their "quietness" and accuracy was the important factor that made "fly killers" so effective as an anti-personnel weapon. I remember, one sniper was saying: - If a target is closer than 100 meters, You don't have to defeat a ballistic jacket. An exposed neck, face or head is just enough! And the gun is so "quiet"...

AC · January 21, 2002, 12:23 PM

Soda Pop, What is your source for the assertion that Russian snipers in WW II used .22s? The only sniper rifles that I'm aware of are their scoped Mosins and SVTs.

What battles? What conditions? What model rifles?

Where did you read that the Soviets "killed a lot of people with these things"? Sounds like interesting reading.

Gewehr98 · January 21, 2002, 02:17 PM

During the Intifada, the 10/22's were used, but ended up being more lethal than intended in their role.

http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/sws/ruger/ruger.htm

Here's a pic:

Snowdog · January 21, 2002, 02:48 PM

.22LR high velocity ammunition (we'll use Remington's 33gr Yellow Jacket for example) drops from 165 FPE to 85 FPE at 100 yards. This is roughly the power of a .25acp from a short barrel handgun.

The .25acp sometimes fails to penetrate the skull at point blank ranges, and this from a much harder copper-jacketed FMJ.

The .22LR will certainly take the fight out of someone at 100 yards, and can easily be lethal... but when you consider the velocity loss at advanced ranges such as 400 yards, you're looking at about 10-20 FPE , less than some magnum pellet rifles.

Though the .22LR will reach to an incredible distance, you'd want to be closer to 100 yards if people are the primary quarry, and even then, accuracy is key.

Bogie · January 21, 2002, 03:30 PM

What you'll really find out about the 60 grain rounds is that you're going to need a faster twist on the barrel - Most match barrels are around 15, and won't stabilize the larger bullet... I'm not sure who makes 10/22 barrels in a faster twist...

January 20, 2002, 09:30 PM	#1
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Using a 22LR for Sniping I know the Soviets used them in WWII. What kind of range were they using them at? From what I've read about the Soviets They KILLED a lot of people with these things. I know your not going to knock anyone over at 200yds. I know your not going to penetrate threw 1/2 an inch of steel. But your never going to run out of ammo, and its going to be hard as heck to tell where the shooting came from. Do you think the 22LR can still be used for Sniping in Warfare?

January 20, 2002, 09:32 PM	#2
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	Ask the Israelis Since they use modified, sound-suppressed Ruger 10/22's to take the fight out of the rock-throwers in the Golan Heights and West Bank.

January 21, 2002, 10:44 AM	#20
Ewok_Guy Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2001 Location: Endor Posts: 1,664	Do you think the 22LR can still be used for Sniping in Warfare? For close range sniping, hell yes! If all my shots were going to be under 100 yards, I would PREFER my model 60. Just take head shots.

January 21, 2002, 02:17 PM	#23
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	Turns out they penetrated a little bit better than they were supposed to... During the Intifada, the 10/22's were used, but ended up being more lethal than intended in their role. http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/sws/ruger/ruger.htm Here's a pic:

January 20, 2002, 09:35 PM	#3
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	No Way!!! Wow thats pretty amazing. If you used steel bullets does the 22LR have the energy to penetrate flak jackets?

January 20, 2002, 09:57 PM	#4
Navy joe Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2001 Location: VA, USA Posts: 1,804	I don't have anyone that I feel needs shooting...right now, but I would like to get the long range shooting experience on whats normally available to me. 200 yds. I really want to get a bolt gun built around aguila's 60gr load, just as soon as I can aquire a reliable source of the ammo. I have a hunch that with practice you could get to 300yds and still be lethal. Suppressed, if that were a legal, option I do believe one could disappear. Damn scary in an urban enviro.

January 20, 2002, 10:00 PM	#5
ninenot Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2000 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 217	Whaddya mean, Flak Jackets? If you're good with a tuned .22LR, you shoot through the eyeball, just as does the Mossad with .22LR pistols (!!!!!) Up to 100 yards should be no sweat with a mid-grade target upgrade. Up to 200 with a REALLY good upgrade (if you happen to have about $2K to spend on a REALLY good upgrade....)

January 20, 2002, 10:03 PM	#6
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	www.wideners.com had 60gr 22LR ammo for sale a few months ago. If the bullet can travel a Mile I'm sure you could hit someone at 400yds if you were good enough. I think your talking about an 8ft bullet drop at that distance but with NO wind and Sub Sonic ammo You've got No worries. You could keep firing until you hit someone. And they'd all be standing around wondering why everyone is getting stung by bees

January 20, 2002, 10:05 PM	#7
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Navy Joe, If your ever up for a trip, we got a 500yd Rifle range up this way. Several of us from PA are getting together next Sunday with 22LR rifles and Pistols. I own a 22 Magnum bolt action and I am planning on seeing what kind of groups I can get with it at 400yds. Just bought a little Tasco Tactical scope for it too.

January 20, 2002, 10:53 PM	#8
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	.22 LR at those extended ranges won't have much punch. Likely not enough to disable the target. 100 yds in, in the hands of a marksman would be lethal. Sam

January 20, 2002, 10:59 PM	#9
Jody Hudson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Near Rehoboth Beach Delaware Posts: 1,140	I will have plenty of Quik-Shok to bring to the shoot for long range folks, which is very fast and fragments on impact, even at long ranges from what I've found. I've shot the long heavy bullets but don't care for the substantial bullet drop. I like it fast, light and "explosive" instead of slow, heavy and penetrating -- as I'm not that great at figuring distance and trajectory. But, with a good trajectory guide pasted to your rifle and a good laser range-finder, the 60 grains could be very interesting!!!!

January 20, 2002, 11:01 PM	#10
Jody Hudson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Near Rehoboth Beach Delaware Posts: 1,140	Perhaps we could bring some penetration targets. Would that be possible SodaPop? If so, what sort would be acceptable? The only thing that comes to mind is newspaper folded to a substantial thickness and taped to the target.

January 20, 2002, 11:16 PM	#11
dZ Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	22lr biathalon rifle meets sniper squad: http://club.guns.ru/eng/sv99.html

January 21, 2002, 01:06 AM	#13
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Well I'm trying to find out what distance Soviet Snipers were taking shots at??????????????????????????????????? Hey, The box says "Lethal Up to a Mile" on it I read 2yrs ago a Woman sun bathing in New York was shot in the stomach by a 22LR from an Unknown distance. She thought she was stung by a bee until she started bleeding really bad. Jody Hudson- We could use news Paper at this range or even just a few pieces of Plywood. If you want to make something up feel free to bring it. It might take awhile before we actually hit it though Whats the velocity of the ammo your bringing? I can print out some Ballistics data as a Cheat Sheet and bring it to the range.

January 21, 2002, 01:12 AM	#14
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Lets not forget with the Recoil of a 22LR, sending more than a few rounds into the same target with something like a Ruger 10/22, is extremely possible in a short period of time. Someone with a kind of nack for tall tales told me the Military used the 22Magnum for sniping. Anyone know if thats true? I'll have Mine with me next week if Jody and I do some penetration experiments.

January 21, 2002, 01:20 AM	#15
Redlg155 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2001 Location: NW Florida Posts: 2,307	Just get a .300 whisper and quietly sing to em! I'm not sure about sniping at long distances with a .22, but I hear they make great "Hush Puppies" Good SHooting RED

January 21, 2002, 06:19 AM	#16
Deadman Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2000 Location: Sydney Posts: 538	From an article about the Soviet invasion of Chechnya during 2000 - " 'They (Chechens) control the night here,' a junior officer, who only identified himself as Vitaly, told SOF. " I don't know any soldier who likes to be on the night patrol or manning a forward checkpoint at night. The bandits are deadly." We'd heard from a number of grunts that a favourite tactic of Chechen snipers was to shoot Russian soldiers in the groin or hip. Russian body armour was notorious for not coming equipped with drop down groin protection and the Chechens probably reveled in that knowledge. " If I got shot down there then I'd still be twice as big as you," one soldier joked with a friend, overhearing our conversation. We all knew that in any other place such a comment would have been easily laughed off as just another episode of foxhole humour. In Chechnya, however, it just masked a sense of absolute terror that resided just below the surface in every grunt's mind. " I later heard that the Chechen snipers also favoured suppressed .22 rifles making it very difficult for Russian troops to pinpoint there location. So with a suppressed .22 rifle there is no need to try and get a head shot or try and punch threw body armour. Just aim for the groin.... OUCH ! After all, hands up how many of you would want to continue fighting a war after being almost castrated by a .22?

January 21, 2002, 08:08 AM	#18
Jody Hudson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Near Rehoboth Beach Delaware Posts: 1,140	SodaPop, the published data for Quik-Shok is 32 grains at 1550 fps but another fellow claims that it is close to 1900 out of a long rifle barell. My son found it to be just under 1800 fps with his H&K .22 rifle, (which used to be mine). Here is some published .22 data. http://www.volny.cz/buchtik/Revo/bal...m#QUIK-SHOK%20(CCI) Here is some more data: http://www.22ammo.com/aguila.html I will also try to scare up some Super Max Aquilla that is 30 grains at 1750 published.

January 21, 2002, 08:11 AM	#19
Jody Hudson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Near Rehoboth Beach Delaware Posts: 1,140	And my BIG .22 is the 5.45 x 39 if that is allowable at the shoot... Data on the Big .22 is below... http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-October01.html

January 21, 2002, 12:23 PM	#22
AC Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 1998 Posts: 268	Soda Pop, What is your source for the assertion that Russian snipers in WW II used .22s? The only sniper rifles that I'm aware of are their scoped Mosins and SVTs. What battles? What conditions? What model rifles? Where did you read that the Soviets "killed a lot of people with these things"? Sounds like interesting reading.

January 21, 2002, 02:48 PM	#24
Snowdog Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2001 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 1,074	.22LR high velocity ammunition (we'll use Remington's 33gr Yellow Jacket for example) drops from 165 FPE to 85 FPE at 100 yards. This is roughly the power of a .25acp from a short barrel handgun. The .25acp sometimes fails to penetrate the skull at point blank ranges, and this from a much harder copper-jacketed FMJ. The .22LR will certainly take the fight out of someone at 100 yards, and can easily be lethal... but when you consider the velocity loss at advanced ranges such as 400 yards, you're looking at about 10-20 FPE , less than some magnum pellet rifles. Though the .22LR will reach to an incredible distance, you'd want to be closer to 100 yards if people are the primary quarry, and even then, accuracy is key.

January 21, 2002, 03:30 PM	#25
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	What you'll really find out about the 60 grain rounds is that you're going to need a faster twist on the barrel - Most match barrels are around 15, and won't stabilize the larger bullet... I'm not sure who makes 10/22 barrels in a faster twist...