.460 Rowland

[Rob Pincus]

Hey, guess waht some people actually do all their homework before introducing a new calibre.

The .460 Rowland has been developed by Johnny rowland and Clark Custom Guns. The round has attempted to duplicate .44 mag performance out of a 1911, with controllability.
The conversion kit sells for $275 retail and includes copensated Barrel and a 24# spring. That's it... just make sure you have a dovetail front site... apparently many a post sight was blown off during testing.
complete autos are available (all makers from Clark (kimber, STI, Caspian, etc...)) as are revolvers.

the round will not chamber in a standard .45 barrel.

Best part:

Georgia Arms is already set to produce the ammo for the retail market, Starline is already proudcing the brass and dies are available for home reloading.. Note: this is not an exotic PIA Necked down cartridge for the home hobbyist reloader's comfort!


Stats:
185 Gr at 1550 FPS
200 Gr at 1450 FPS
230 Gr at 1340 FPS
185 Gr HP defense load @ 1350 FPS

[old biker]

Hello Rob. This sounds very similiar to the old .451 Detonics and .45 Super. What's the differance? Sell me!

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AFFA

[Rob Pincus]

Well, for one thing.. the .460 Rowland can't (unsafely) be chambered in just any .45. which is a big plus for the liability issues.
Next, reloading and finding ammo should be simpler than the .45 super. (which I have yet to see a box of in a store or at a gun show (SHOT aside).

Other than those two points, I don't know enough about the stats of the .45 super and/or the .451 detonics to really comment. Maybe someone can post the stats for those rounds and we can compare apples to apples.

I will, however, ask Johnny and the Clarks that question tommorrw, and tell you what they say.... since it is their job to sell everyone.

[Rob Pincus]

J.R. Says that the energy of the .460 is measurably higher than either of the other two offerings in equivalent weight bullets.

I am unfamiliar with the stats on the two calibres you mention, so the best I can do is tell you that I don't think John would lie to me.

[Rob Pincus]

According to the Data at Ace Custom (run, I understand, by the originator of the .45 Super), the .460 Rowland will provide an extra 140-150 FPS to the 230 gr and 185 gr bullets.

That means about an 11% increase in the 185 gr bullets and a 12% increase in the 230 gr bulets.

Also, the more I think about it, the less I like the idea of a round that will chamber in a gun which is not strong enough to support it. I realize that I own a 642 that should not be loaded with 38 +ps, but for some reason it bothers in the autopistol, where I might not conciously look at the headstamp of the rounds as I load them.

Don't get me wrong, I will be buying some .45 Super ammo for my HK the first time I see it somewhere, but I thik the .460 has been a very well-developed round as well.

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-Essayons

[old biker]

Thanks for the info, we did the .45super way back when Dean Grinnel wrote about it. Spent some serious time cutting .45 Win Mag cases. Identical velocitys. Still have some ammo on the shelf, lost interest because of the recoil. If ya comp one the prblem of recoil is solved but you introduce the new problem of a comp on a carry gun. I was at the indoor range last month with an old commander in .45 that's got all the bolt ons and a Wilson 3port bushing comp(gun show $10) We fired some of the old supers and had no muzzle climb, great accuracy, and a huge ball of flame from the comp. Gee whiz factor of 10, tactical factor? CRAP! Just realized that it was way more controlable than the 10mm! Gotta go to the range again to see how fast the supers were running in the short barrel..

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AFFA

[bald1]

Rob,

From the info you supplied (again my thanks), we're talking about beefed up 45ACP brass 1/16" overlength, yet when loaded measuring the same OAL to be able to use standard mags. Pressure is up an additional 15k psi over standard 45ACP fodder. Reminds me of the 9x21 bit which also used the same OAL and was a ruse to load a 9mm to major. No question that the 460 R will offer a quantum jump over the standard 45ACP. I noted your comment about blowing staked front sights off. Sounds like the old slabsides will take a pounding. Running it without a compensator, if memory serves from earlier e-mail exchanges, is not advised by Clark. No kidding <grin>! This has got to be a big smokepole.

The reason I like my 400 Cor-Bon over stuff like the 357 SIG is the lower pressures the round operates at.

I'll be *very* interested at hearing how you fare once you get some ammo to shoot.

-=[Bob]=-

[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 02-11-99).]

[Rob Pincus]

Johnny's new round is mentioned on Page 36 of the latest G&A.

I am still waiting for my first loaded rounds to get here...

[cornered rat]

For all the attention that fast rounds get, how come no one would come out with a modern gun chambered for 7.62x25 Tokarev? Seens that it would be the ultimate for the fast & light crowd (88gr ball at 1500fps, bottlenecked round...would be pretty nice in a long-barreled revolver, too...same niche as 32 H&R Magnum, far less expensive ammo). Somebody would start loading HP rounds that actually open up as intended. Why not?

[Rob Pincus]

I bought a CZ-52 last year. It was my first gun bought, on the first day of, through the new Instant Check system here in TN.
Kinda Ironic that I bought a commie gun, eh? (honestly, it was the cheapest hting I had any interest in....).

What pistols, if any, would be elligible for a drop in barrel conversion to 7.62 TOK ??

Would a 1911 set up for .38 Super work with a new barrel and a lighter spring?

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited February 25, 1999).]

[cornered rat]

How loud is the CZ52 vs. a 357 mag out of a 6" barrel? Also, how bad is the recoil vs. sm-th like a Glock 17?

[Rob Pincus]

The recoil out of the 52 is less than the G17 with NATO loads, but the muzzle flash and report are harsher.. I would'nt put them as harsh as a .357.. but most of my .357 stuff has been shot out of 4" or shorter barrels.

[Daniel Watters]

The Red Chinese converted several M1911s to the Tokarev round, but they also modified the pistol to accept Tokarev magazines.

My first issue would be whether the average Tokarev round would even fit in a standard 1911 magazine. The max. OAL of the .38 Super is around 1/10th of an inch shorter than the max OAL of the Tokarev or .30 Mauser.

Of course, if the Tokarev round fits in the magazine, you could just as easily convert a pistol to take the 9x25mm Mauser Export cartridge with a barrel swap. I've know of at least one pistolsmith who tried this with a 9x19mm CZ52 conversion.

[Rob Pincus]

I got some loaded rounds in yesterday. Some 185 "defensive" loads rated at 1350 and some 185's loaded up to 1550.

It is raining pretty steadily here, but I just had to shoot some rounds. I went out on he porch, threw some cans about 7-10 yards out.

I had one 1911 with some standard .45 and a couple .45 +Ps. Then I had my .460 converted 1911 and two mags, one of Defensive and one full out. I wanted to see how noticable the progression was.

The difference between the +P .45 and the defenseive load was less noticable than the difference between Blaser 230 grn .45 and 185gr Rem +P.
That said, the jump between the def. load and the full .460 Rowland was like the difference between a 38 spcl and a full out 357 Magnum. Even with the Comp the full .460 was a serious round. The comp does a great job of keeping the muzzle from rising and you feel the gun come straight back when you fire.

I am really looking forward to trying this round out at some hunting ranges, I may have a new caliber of choice for deer. Also, I may break out the chronometer to see how fast these HPs are really going.

The rounds would not chamber in a standard .45 acp barrel and they functioned flawlessly in the appropriate firearm.

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-Essayons

[Thoth]

Are you able to use good ole regular .45 acp in the converted 1911. I'm assuming not. Or that reliability would be compromised by the heavy duty recoil spring. If you can use both types that would be a real bonus! Thanks

[Rob Pincus]

Although I wasn't sure that the round wound chamber properly, I loaded two rounds in a mag, racked the slide a couple times and the they seemed to function okay.

I put the two rounds back in the mag and walked out onto the porch. I was going to fire a couple of roundsin to the ground, but I only got one. The round wasn't powerful enough to get the spent case back to the eject, so the front of the case jammed on the top of the barrel as the slide starting moving forward. My guess is that there might be a happy ground where a lighter spring (this one is 24#s!) and a heavier load (perhaps even a .45 +P) might make the gun suitable for dual caliber use in a pinch.

I will ask Johnny about it next time I talk to him.

[Rob Pincus]

Found out today that this round is very accurate. The full house 185s patterned a full mag all touching one another offhand about 1 inch from the point of aim, I was shooting at about 13-15 yards. Thr group was about 2.5 inches or so, C-to-C.
I'm not one for too much "pattern shooting".. but even my cynical "combat accuracy" mind was impressed. Remember, this is a drop in kit, not a tuned gun.

I did a little pin shooting and the pins reacted significantly more than they do with standard .45s and noticably more than with 10mm hot loads. These things are running a little heavier and 400+ FPS faster than my regular 10mm stuff! Add to that the fact that they have a larger surface area and you can see the potential for a serious hunting round.

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-Essayons

[Mossyrock]

Rob,

What kind of a muzzle velocity are they advertising for the 230 grain load? have you had a chance to shoot any of that load yet? Do you think a comp is neccesary with this beast? Kind of eliminates standard holster carry, doesn't it?

Mossyrock

[Rob Pincus]

Clark/Rowland will not sell the conversion kits without the threaded comp. The custom 1911s and 625s that they are building are all going to be comped or ported, according to them. I would hate to consider rapid fire without the comp. Right now, with hot 185s, the kick is real close to my Model 29 with hunting loads. You feel it in your wrist, the comp allows the kick to come straight back.

As for the 230 loads, I haven't shot any yet, but they are claiming mid-1300's (see original post in this thread).

[Thoth]

So this conversion only involves the barrel and recoil spring? or did I miss something? Curious about that because if I remember right, the 45 super conversion for 1911s also required a change in the firing pin and a few other springs. I considered the 45 super but I was just going to get a 625 to handle it instead of fooling around with mods for not a lot more performance. But this 460 Rowland sounds like another beast entirely. Also, how do i change my password???

[Rob Pincus]

Do a search on "passwords" because I think it has been addresed, otherwise post a qeustion in the "feedback" area and someone will help ou.. I'm not even sure if you can.


Back to the .460-

The kit is a barrel with Comp, Wolf 24# spring, and a Wolf Firing pin spring. To be honest, I haven't replaced the firing pin spring, butI'm sure I'll get around to it. I'm trying to decide exactly which 1911 I am going to use the kit on.. I'm still floundering around on that one.

I forgot to address the carry issue.. I use open bottom holsters for most of my 1911's. In fact, I like the Yaqui Slide about as much as any holster for on the belt carry. Those types of holsters will work fine with the comp on the gun, but I am not considering the .460 for daily carry. I put this in the real of "fun to shoot" and "great for offense". Kinda like a .44 magnum, I have 3 .44s, none of which I would carry for self-defense. When I say "offense," I mean hunting.

[brass shower]

Will Clark be coming out with conversions for non-1911 style pistols? I'd like to try this out in my Glock 21...

[old biker]

I'm still waiting for actual chrono reading please. How about best group size at 25yds? Did you get a special deal on the .460 conversion and ammo???? Just want to check for an unbiased opinion. BTW, clocked my .45 Supers out of a commander Sunday and got 230s at 1200 fps 10ft from muzzle.

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AFFA

[Rob Pincus]

I am biased, regardless of what I paid for anything, because I like the Clark's work and they are all friends, as is Johnny Rowland.

I haven't bothered to get out my chrono and I am not likely to take the time/effort to give you a 25 yard rested group. I'm not into those kinds of measurements.

I bought the kit at dealer cost, which is about what I pay for anything. I was sent the about 80 rounds of the ammo as samples, because I have been harrassing Georgia Arms trying to buy some. They have told me that it would be ready by the end of the month. I will probably break out the Chrony when I get their production ammo, as it will be a more meaningful measurement than taking them off of Johnny's handloads.



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-Essayons

[Daniel Watters]

Georgia Arms brought several bags of .460 Rowland ammo to the local gunshow this past week. The labels claimed 1400fps for the 185gr JHP. Retail was under $20 for 50 rounds.

Ironicly at the very same show, I found a 1976 vintage book which gives passing mention to a wildcat called the .45 J-Mag. A M1911 conversion from Jeffredo Gunsight Company, the .45 J-Mag cases were made by trimming .30-06 or .308 brass to 1.025". The quoted ballistics...a 185gr JHP at >1400fps!

As they say, there is truly nothing new under the sun.