Forced reset trigger settlement

[Aguila Blanca]

The federal government has announced a settlement of a case involving Rare Breed Triggers' forced reset triggers. This is essentially an out-of-court resolution, so it's far short of a Supreme Court ruling. That means a future ATF under a different administration could pursue any other maker of forced reset triggers. But ... it's better than nothing.

The ATF agreed to not consider Rare Breed's FRTs to be machine guns, and rare Breed agreed to not develop FRTs for handguns.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/depar...and-rare-breed

[Shoots Left]

I don't have any experience with FRTs but from what little I think I understand about them it seems like these triggers create an induced trigger slap/bite situation. Wouldn't they begin to hurt your trigger finger after a while?

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Shoots Left

I don't have any experience with FRTs but from what little I think I understand about them it seems like these triggers create an induced trigger slap/bite situation. Wouldn't they begin to hurt your trigger finger after a while?

I can imagine it will create some discomfort on the trigger finger. But, at least to me, the wallet will hurt sooner. Even 5.56 costs close to $1 a round nowadays.

But that's not the point. Not to infringe is.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Aguila Blanca]

I confess that I have no idea what a forced reset trigger is. According to Wikipedia,

The forced reset trigger works by mechanically resetting the trigger's position after a shot is fired. This allows for an increased rate of fire. However, the shooter must still manually pull the trigger each time it resets for any subsequent shot to be fired.

I guess maybe all my firearms have forced reset triggers, because I have never fired any firearm on which I had to manually move the trigger forward before I could fire another shot. I guess maybe you could say that a single action revolver doesn't reset the trigger -- but it also doesn't reset the hammer, and when you cock the hammer the trigger resets -- automatically.

So I really don't understand all the hoopla. But I know the BATFE under Biden got their knickers in a twist over these things and declared them to be "machine guns," and that's what the lawsuit is all about. The ATF under Biden took the attitude that because a FRT allows firing faster, it's a machine gun. But the definition of a machine gun has nothing to do with how fast you can pull the trigger. The definition says

... more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

So this is another iteration of the bump stock debate. A bump stock doesn't alter a firearm to fire more than one round with a single action of the trigger, it just helps to pull the trigger faster. If I'm understanding this correctly, that's also what a forced reset trigger does. And IMHO the BATFE should not be in the business of stretching classifications beyond what the legal definitions clearly say.

As tangolima wrote:

Originally Posted by tangolima

But that's not the point. Not to infringe is.

[JohnKSa]

I guess maybe all my firearms have forced reset triggers, because I have never fired any firearm on which I had to manually move the trigger forward before I could fire another shot. I guess maybe you could say that a single action revolver doesn't reset the trigger -- but it also doesn't reset the hammer, and when you cock the hammer the trigger resets -- automatically.

You have to release the trigger before it will reset to fire another round in a conventional design.

In a conventional design, you pull the trigger, the shot fires, the action cycles, loading another round and cocking the hammer/striker, but if the trigger is held to the rear, nothing happens. The shooter must release pressure on the trigger, allowing it to go forward under the pressure of the trigger return spring. Then, only then, will the trigger reset--and the shooter can pull it again, if desired.

In an FRT, the trigger is FORCED forward to reset. You don't have to release the trigger, in fact, even if you try to hold it to the rear, it will be driven forward anyway.

[44 AMP]

You don't have to release the trigger, in fact, even if you try to hold it to the rear, it will be driven forward anyway.

That is my understanding of the forced reset trigger also, though I admit to no expert personal knowledge specific to how it is done.

If the shooter keeps pressure on the trigger, then once it mechanically resets, pressure pulling it is instantly applied. This will be measurably faster than the shooter consciously releasing the trigger before reapplying pressure for the next shot, but it is not mechanically different under the law, the trigger is pulled separately for each shot.

What I wonder is, is measurably faster, in this case, practically faster? How much speed difference there is, and IF it matters.

Anyone know the actual rate difference between the FRT system(s) and a shooter determined to shoot as fast as possible?

IF it is something like being able to fire 10.3 rounds in the time it takes a standard system to shoot 10, is that something that really matters??

All depends on the numbers, to me, and so far I've seen no mention of the actual rate of fire possible, which makes me wonder, if the whole "if it lets you shoot faster its a machine gun" crowd isn't showing us how much faster it is, it can't be much.

[Sharkbite]

How does this effect AR “pistols”?

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

You have to release the trigger before it will reset to fire another round in a conventional design.

In a conventional design, you pull the trigger, the shot fires, the action cycles, loading another round and cocking the hammer/striker, but if the trigger is held to the rear, nothing happens. The shooter must release pressure on the trigger, allowing it to go forward under the pressure of the trigger return spring. Then, only then, will the trigger reset--and the shooter can pull it again, if desired.

In an FRT, the trigger is FORCED forward to reset. You don't have to release the trigger, in fact, even if you try to hold it to the rear, it will be driven forward anyway.

I get it -- I just don't get it. To me, it's another answer to a question nobody asked. (Except that someone obviously did ask, hence the invention.)

To me it seems dangerous and I want no part of it. That said, words are supposed to have meaning, so the BATFE shouldn't be allowed to call things "machine guns" if they don't fire multiple rounds with a single pull of the trigger.

[44 AMP]

You can blame the existence of the device(s), and bumpfire stocks directly on the NFA 1934 (and the 1986 Hughes amendment) and the ATF's system of enforcement of it.

Firing full auto, and firing simulated full auto are FUN. Since the law makes legal full auto ownership both costly and a hassle of forms fingerprints, police investigation and approval and waiting for usually months (sometimes more) to get approval, firing something that simulates a machine gun without having to go through the legal hoops is appealing, and in true American fashion, when people want something, and there is SOME legal way to do it, or feel like you're doing it, someone will build and sell something to provide the experience for profit.

[JohnKSa]

What I wonder is, is measurably faster, in this case, practically faster? How much speed difference there is, and IF it matters.

Anyone know the actual rate difference between the FRT system(s) and a shooter determined to shoot as fast as possible?

It's going to be essentially the same as firing full-auto. The shooter just maintains a constant pressure to the rear on the trigger, and the trigger is reset forward automatically after each shot, allowing the constant pressure to the rear to then actuate the trigger and fire the gun as soon as it is forced forward to reset.

To me it seems dangerous and I want no part of it.

It's no more dangerous than firing full auto. The gun fires as long as a constant pressure is maintained by the trigger finger and stops as soon as the pressure is released.

[Metal god]

What I wonder is, is measurably faster, in this case, practically faster? How much speed difference there is, and IF it matters.

What do you think ?

Standard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3gf_5MR4tE

FRT
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8u09cqzO7lg

[Aguila Blanca]

One article I read said that to use the rare Breed Triggers FRT you also have to install an auto bolt carrier group (I think that's what it said). I thought those weren't allowed in "civilian" AR-15s.

Or is it just the auto sear that we can't have?

[Jim Watson]

I think that rule was relaxed, there are a lot of M16 parts in AR15 home builts these days.

[Aguila Blanca]

I bought my only AR-15 during the federal AWB period, so it's fully neutered. I'm perfectly happy with that. I don't expect to get into any night firefights, so the lack of a flash hider isn't anything I worry about. I probably also don't have to worry about there being any other questionable parts in it.

[Metal god]

I don't expect to get into any night firefights

And here I thought the majority of bad things happen at night . It’s pretty cool how you know When you will need your Firarms . A buddy of mine is the same way. He only CCW’s when he goes more than a mile away from his house. It’s pretty impressive how some people know when bad things will happen to them.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

I bought my only AR-15 during the federal AWB period, so it's fully neutered. I'm perfectly happy with that. I don't expect to get into any night firefights, so the lack of a flash hider isn't anything I worry about. I probably also don't have to worry about there being any other questionable parts in it.

What? You know there have been new production rifles since the AWB, correct? Why would a new production rifle today have more questionable parts in it than rifles during the AWB? Or are you in a ban state and have to buy used?

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Metal god

And here I thought the majority of bad things happen at night . It’s pretty cool how you know When you will need your Firarms .

Bad things do happen at night, and I obviously can't predict what may happen or when. That doesn't mean that a flash hider would provide any significant advantage if I were to use my AR for home defense at night.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

What? You know there have been new production rifles since the AWB, correct? Why would a new production rifle today have more questionable parts in it than rifles during the AWB?

There are so many companies making AR-15 pattern firearms today that it's difficult to know what they may be using for internal parts. During the AWB period, I think the companies making AR-15s were being very careful to stay within the law rather than trying to push the envelope as many of them are doing today. But it's academic, because ...

Or are you in a ban state and have to buy used?

I can't even buy used. "Assault weapons" cannot be transferred in my state ... period. If I were to sell it, it would have to be sold out of state.

[Metal god]

That doesn't mean that a flash hider would provide any significant advantage if I were to use my AR for home defense at night.

Fair enough , and in all honesty I’ve never fired an AR in very low light conditions without some sort of flash suppresser so I don’t know how my eyes would compensate. That said Id hate to find out the hard way my eyes would not do well in that situation. My ears either, wouldn’t that be fun Blind and deaf in a self-defense situation haha .

[44 AMP]

While the term is used interchangeably by civilians, and even manufacturers, in the military there is a difference between flash hiders and flash suppressors.

Both do the same job, attenuate the dazzle effect of the muzzle flash, but they do it in slightly different ways.

The Army used flash hiders on certain guns in WWII. These are cone shaped with solid walls and often, but not always, fairly long.

The flash suppressor was developed later, is generally tubular, slightly larger than barrel diameter and has slots or holes (or both) in the sides.

NOTHING hides the flash from the people you are shooting at!

Barrel length, amount and type of powder, and the intensity of the pressure also play a part in how effective either type is.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

I bought my only AR-15 during the federal AWB period, so it's fully neutered.

I had an AWB Bushmaster I picked up after the AWB ended.

The non-fully automatic carrier just had a little bit of material missing at the back. Later people would market reduced mass carriers for different reasons.

The non-threaded heavy barrel on that Bushmaster was fairly accurate, and I've read that people who really know what they are doing can shoot improved groups because the last important inch of barrel hasn't been stretched with a muzzle device or made less stable by removing material.

I am fortunate that FRTs aren't interesting to me because they are expensive. Then there's the current price of ammunition. Someone wrote than an FRT is like a money printing machine, but in reverse.

[44 AMP]

A question for those who have used a forced reset trigger, is it an all or nothing set up?

Can you fire aimed single shots, or does the mechanism reset before the shooter can release the trigger? I understand that if you keep pulling, it keeps going, but can you fire single shots, or because it resets before you can let go will it only fire bursts if you try for single shots??

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

A question for those who have used a forced reset trigger, is it an all or nothing set up?



Can you fire aimed single shots, or does the mechanism reset before the shooter can release the trigger? I understand that if you keep pulling, it keeps going, but can you fire single shots, or because it resets before you can let go will it only fire bursts if you try for single shots??

Based on what I have read, it is "select fire", similar to binary trigger. Regular semi-auto is always available.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[44 AMP]

Based on what I have read, it is "select fire", similar to binary trigger. Regular semi-auto is always available.

Technically, it is mechanically semi auto fire. My question here is about the practicality and possibility of a reset before the shooter is aware of it and consequent continued trigger pull.

I have experience with numerous full auto and select fire weapons. When the cyclic rate is low enough it is possible to squeeze off single shots even when set to full auto fire. But, when the rate it higher, its not possible, short of exceptional reflexes and extensive training.

Weapon (and cartridge) size, weight and recoil plays a part, as well.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Technically, it is mechanically semi auto fire. My question here is about the practicality and possibility of a reset before the shooter is aware of it and consequent continued trigger pull.



I have experience with numerous full auto and select fire weapons. When the cyclic rate is low enough it is possible to squeeze off single shots even when set to full auto fire. But, when the rate it higher, its not possible, short of exceptional reflexes and extensive training.



Weapon (and cartridge) size, weight and recoil plays a part, as well.

Oh that. I'm sure you fire single with practice. Probably easier than the regular automatic. More feedback to the trigger finger.

I also heard it from a friend who served tours in Iraq. They took insurgents firing controlled semi auto more serious than full auto.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk