BP 12 ga. load.

[deerslayer303]

I have a Cimarron 1878 Coach on the way. I plan to feed it a diet of black powder loads. I know we have some CASS members in here and I figured you guys have shot plenty of that. The Cimarron is 20" barrel cyl choke as many of you may know. What is your favorite BP load and if you could explain the load column. Like shot cup or no shot cup. Thank you in advance.

[ligonierbill]

I never used a shot cup. To keep it simple, I used an old 3 1/2 dram measure for both #6 shot (about 1 1/4 oz) and powder. I loaded Alliant Black MZ, no longer available, and that was about 75 grains by weight. Holy black I'd do the same. I was loading brass shells, the ones that use a large pistol primer. Powder, fiber wad, shot, overshot card, sodium silicate to seal it. Quick and easy, which is important when you're running through ammo like they're giving it away.

With variations of volume and shot size, I still load these brass shells for old 16, 12, and 10 gauge shotguns for hunting.

[FrankenMauser]

I don't use shot cups or plastic wads or gas seals in BP loads. I don't want plastic anywhere near my BP bores.

I generally load BP shot shells with classic "square" loads - powder charge and shot charge are of the same volume. I use 1F or 2F Goex, Swiss, or home made BP.
Wad column (nitro card, fiber wads, and maybe cork on top) is adjusted to get the overshot card where I want it (or to get the fold crimp correct if I am doing one-time-use loads in plastic hulls).

Right now, I only have 16 ga loaded. So I don't have any specific data to share for 12 ga.
I do believe a common cowboy action load is 7/8 oz shot over 65 gr 2F. Wad column adjusted for the hulls being used.

[Hawg]

You need to use brass shells. You won't get but one or two reloads with plastic before they melt too much to use.

[44 Dave]

I use 50 gr FF, Winn. plastic shot cups about 1 1/2 reclaimed shot.
With 5 stages and 2 to six shots/stage the plastic that is in the barrel comes right out with very hot water.
I don't think it would clean up as well out of an "antique barrel".

[Hawg]

I use 80 grains of powder and an equal amount of shot. If I use a shot cup which I usually don't I make them out of paper.

[Hellgate]

I use any wad or combination that allows the designated powder and shot charge to be seperated and afford a decent crimp.

I am a dumpster diver and scrounge empty hulls that others have discarded. My favorites are the Remington STS and Gun Club hulls (both are green and tapered). I use these for my light loads. Most any other color (usually red) are for heavier loads. I typically get about 3 reloadings per hull before the mouth is too scorched.

My light load (green case) is 50 grains VOLUME of any powder that smokes: Real BP (2F & 3F), Pyrodex (all designations including "P"), APP, Black MZ, etc. The wad is any one-piece plastic with the dimensions of the standard Winchester AA 1 1/8oz wad. I only put 7/8oz shot in the cup and crimp. This is basically a 20 guage load and will take down any faller or plate at typical SASS distances. With the higher cost of components, this is an economical little load. Buckaroos take down their fallers with a .410 so there is little need to use excessive powder and shot. All this is done on a MEC 600Jr press.

My heavy load is 75-80 grs of anything that smokes (except 777 which costs more), the over powder seal cut from the bottom of a plastic wad and the shot cup cut from the top of a plastic wad in a straight walled case if possible (WW AA hulls work well) and 1 1/8oz shot. This is the traditional 3 dram 1 1/8 oz load that will go about 1200 FPS. It is LOUD and kicks significantly more than the light load.

As for cleanup: it's a cinch. I take the barrels off, wipe down the face of the recoil shield and oil it. Then I spray both bores with a moose milk or 20/10 windshield cleaner (any water based cleaner will do). I make sure all inner surfaces are wetted and let it sit for a minute to soak. I then wad up 1/2 to one paper towel and stuff it into each chamber and with a wooden dowel punch the wadding out the muzzles. 90% of the time you will get a "snake skin" of black snot (plastic residue) coming out to impress bystanders. Repeat if needed. I also have a "Tornado" coiled steel cleaning head if needed to scour out the bore.

If you load card over powder wads in tapered cases the card wad can get swaged down to a smaller diameter and it will not seal as well as the more flexible plastic wads. I like shot cups because the crimp can get ironed out and I've had hulls not want to shuck out as easily. Always pattern your loads. Staple or tape some butcher paper to a cardboard box, step back to CAS distances and blast it. Some will be even and others will be donut shaped. Donut patterns mean too much powder and the wad is blowing through the shot scattering it (I've been told).

Brass hulls, to me are too much work but very classy. A lot of people use 11 guage card/filler/over shot wads for a better seal in the thin walled brass cases. You can buy the wads from Ballistics Products. Paper hulls are very "period correct" but don't shuck out of SXSs.

[deerslayer303]

I appreciate all the info. I will put it to use for sure.

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by Hellgate

. I typically get about 3 reloadings per hull before the mouth is too scorched.

I roll crimp and they don't scorch at the mouth. They melt all down the inside and get thin right above the brass. After a couple of reloads you can tell they're stretched and sometimes have pinholes.

[deerslayer303]

Hawg, Is that with just low brass shells or does the same happen with high brass?

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

This is my CAS Black Powder shotgun load. Remington STS hull, Winchester 209 primer, 4.3 CC (about 65 grains) of Shuetzen FFg, 1/8" Circle Fly Over Powder card, 1/2" Circle Fly Cushion wad, 1 1/8 Ounce of #8 shot, and a 1/16" over shot card. I like the Remington STS hulls because they use the slipperiest plastic of any shotgun hull. We are not allowed to have ejectors in our CAS shotguns, so the slippery STS hulls fly out of the chambers of my shotgun with a quick backward jerk. I don't bother reusing my STS hulls after they have been fired once, I have a huge supply from the Trap fields at my club.






I load my CAS shotgun shells on my old MEC Jr single stage press. I dip the powder with the Lee 4.3 CC dipper seen in the photo. These are not actually 'square loads' they are a bit less. A Square Load is the same volume of powder and shot. Putting too much powder into a BP shotgun load can ruin the pattern. These work out to a bit less than 2 1/2 Drams, if I recall correctly.






Still, they knock down everything I point them at with my old Stevens hammered double with its 28" cylinder bore barrels.

[gwpercle]

Dixie Gun Works still sells brass shotgun shells and the fiber / card wads for easy reloading ... I'm away from my books but I think loading instructions are still in DGW Catalog .
www.dixiegunworks.com Take a look on their site
Gary

[44caliberkid]

I use paper hulls, they don’t melt. You can still find new shells loaded in paper hulls. Federal did a run some years back and I shot them up at my trap range and have saved the hulls. I also had a bunch of old 12 gauge paper hull shells that I accumulated in auction miscellaneous boxes that I shot through one of my guns just to get the empty hulls. Antique shotgun tools are inexpensive, so I obtained a roll crimper and an adjustable powder/ shot measure. My process is as follows. I size and deprime the hull in my Lee Loadall, then use the Lee to install the new primer. From there I put in the powder and a card wad, then a fiber cushion wad, shot charge, card wad, and then roll crimp. Another reason I use paper hulls is I have a 1882 Remington double barrel that has 2 1/2 inch chambers and I made a little tool to shorten paper hulls.

[FrankenMauser]

Just don't use Cheddite paper hulls.
For me, and anyone else that I've had try them, they split in almost any chamber in which they're fired - with a few exceptions for "tight" modern chambers.
That includes the "Peters Paper" hulls, as Remington contracted with Cheddite for that.
One-time use.

[4V50 Gary]

Had to look up Cheddite as I never heard of them before. Thanks for the warning.

[Ricklin]

Don't need any hulls. I've been loading Cheddite primers for years no issues at all.

[Jim Watson]

Seem the square load of equal volumes black powder and shot is a rather low velocity load. Probably close patterns

Greener warned about English field trials competitors bringing different shells for pattern and penetration. Which he wanted to remedy by putting the penetration card stack in the middle of the pattern board.

[FrankenMauser]

In the 1875 Field Trial (that Greener 'won'), several competitors were nearly disqualified (and several watched more closely), after wads were found on the ground that had been hollowed out on one side.
-Presumably to get more powder and/or shot in specific shells for specific tests.

All ammunition was loaded by the panel of 'judges', or trusted underlings, in the presence of the competitors and judges, to their specifications, using their prescribed hulls, powder, shot, cards, and wads - but purchased by The Field - and each shell was carefully marked per competitor, per gun, and per test (if more than one gun was entered). However, there were several hours a day, for each day of testing, that the ammunition was in possession of the competitors and their aides, with the possibility of being out of sight of the judges and 'referees'.

Did they cheat?
Obviously.

I consider this still on topic. But if you want justification:
A) I find it interesting and it follow's Jim's reply well.
B) Because some of their loads were unbelievably heavy.
One 12 ga entrant used 1-3/8 oz of shot over 120 gr of powder. I have never tried to see how that fits in a 2.5" (or 3") 12 ga paper hull, but it seems like it would be all shot and powder, heavy compression, and just a nitro card between.
Another wanted 1-3/4 oz of shot over 90 gr of powder. More reasonable, but still.
Several others wanted "soft" loads - a mere 1-1/4 oz of shot over 65-85 gr of their chosen powder, with a specific cork wad for cushion.
(I do not recall which brand, type, or granulation for any loads. This was in the days of dozens of variations being available from each manufacturer. And, separately, some loads could have been in 3" or longer shells. I do not recall if the trial had a shell length limit. I feel that it should have, but do not remember for certain. And, at the time of the trial, Kynoch was selling 8 bore to 12 bore paper and brass hulls up to 4" in length [up to at least 4.5" for 8 bore]. [14 bore and smaller, I have only see 3.5" or shorter in their period ads. The smaller the bore, the shorter the max length offered.])

Sidebar:
One entrant's 10 ga guns were all disqualified after one of his first rounds blew through the leg of pattern test stand and sent shrapnel into the markers (people that marked and removed the target after each shot, who were "safely" hiding behind the stand). His second gun was just as bad - some of the bad shots being shells that were extracted/ejected as just a head, presumably having separated and gone down range as "a solid mass, wrapped in the forward portion of the paper shell, akin to a slug." (What we call "cut shells" today, when done intentionally.)
If I remember correctly, one of Greener's own 10 ga guns was disqualified for having some dangerously errant pellets, as well as too many impacts on the target board. (Too many pellets for the size of shot loaded, but no proof of cheating.)