Is the 400 legend stillborn

[wild willy]

You hear nothing about it most new cartridges introduced in the last 20 years the manufacturers would have guns out to test.Barrel makers would be making barrels.For a AR cartridge that use’s available bolts you’d think somebody would have barrels

[stagpanther]

Be patient--it takes at least a few days to become a legend.

[44caliberkid]

I just saw a YouTube video about it yesterday. The factory ammo chronoed at close to advertised velocity, even from a 16 inch barrel (Winchester test barrel was 20”.) It rang an armour steel silhouette like a sledge hammer. The reviewer handloaded some heavier slugs, including a huge 320 or 330 grain flat point hardcast. I think he was getting about 2650 fps out of those. He talked about doing some sub sonic loads with really heavy bullets.
Iowa deer hunters settled on 450 Bushmaster right away, because it was out a year earlier. And it’s accurate, and more than suitable to the task. Last hunting season every farm store was flush with 350 Legend ammo, but 450 was harder to find once the early season sales were over. I have 10mm hand guns and 38-40 rifles, so I’m a fan of the caliber. It might present some angry beast competition to my 458 SOCOM AR.

[GeauxTide]

Bought a 450 when Bushmaster brought it out. Hornady made dies and cases together with a 250gr FTX bullet made just for it. Shoots 5/8" in 5 shots at 2200fps.

[stagpanther]

Looking at the specs--it actually looks to me like maybe the 400 is what the 350 should have been. Starting at at the get-go with the 6.8 spc case as a parent--that's smart, a tough case which I'm guessing bypasses the unsupported case head/large rim groove silliness the 350 legend had when first rolled out. If they had a trade-in program 350 to 400 I'd do it.

[bamaranger]

I'm watching the .400 story closely. In a bull session a while back with a shooting pal, we theorized about the lack of a .40 cal rifle cartridge in today's line up and what parent cartridge and platform we would use. None of my ideas are close to the new .400 or it's AR launcher, but Winchester has indeed given us the cartridge.

[bamaranger]

I gotta tell ya though, the labels attached to these new cartridges....Buckhammer.......Legend, .......... really???????????

[ligonierbill]

How about Swift, Ultra Magnum, and Nitro Express?

[stagpanther]

I gotta tell ya though, the labels attached to these new cartridges....Buckhammer.......Legend, .......... really???????????

I have a name for a new cartridge--"instantaneous rigamortis"--I just haven't actually developed it yet.

[bamaranger]

The folks naming the new ctgs must have watched to many Marvel superhero movies. Nobody asked, but I would have much preferred .400 AR, .350 AR. For conversations sake, I expect one or the other to survive, but not both. I suppose if I simply abbreviate them to .400L and .350L I can tolerate them.

The industry provides products for profit, and the AR is wildly popular. Makes sense to introduce cartridges for the most popular rifle in the country (OK, one of the most popular). There are specific states that require their geometry, but beyond that, their practicality and nieed for both is debatable. As there is not a contemporary .40 factory "rifle cartridge" existent, the .400L may survive, but I dunno. It may depend on legislation bearing upon AR rifles.

The Swift broke 4000 fps first and is a classic. The Nitro Mag family was a product of the propellants of the day. The Ultra Mags, and their dwarf relatives the Short Ultras, were flops. So to were their alphabet soup cousins from Winchester, the WSM, WSSM's. I'm still thinking about the Bee and the Hornet, but I wish I had one of each! Will we be talking about the Legends and the Buckhammer near 100 years from now (age of the Swift) I dunno.

Renaming cartridges has been done before, and successfully. I suggest the Legends and the 'Hammer start the paperwork.

[MarkCO]

Don't know. Theortically, and based on a few actual use reports, the .400L is better overall than the 300Whisper, 350L, 360BH and .450BM. Recall that some states have a max length, as well as straight wall, that nixes the 300W and .450BM.

I have built and tried them all, including a bunch of others, except the 400L. When it came out... But I told myself NO. I've experimented enough with new, heavy bullet AR15 cartridges. Plus, I have 2 10mm DI AR15s, a Marlin 35Rem, a Henry .41Mag and a Henry .45-70 and I don't live in a straight wall state. I have literally no good reason to try a 400L except that I really like calibers that start with a .4.

IF, ballistics mattered more than marketing, we'd be devoid of about 30 modern cartridges, but we all know that is not the case.

[stagpanther]

I still think the 400L is simply Winchester's correction of what the 350L should of been--in other words they are killing off the 350L themselves.

[44 AMP]

While there is no reason you have to (they do get paid to make the call) on might have some sympathy for the gun company exec who has to decide WHICH of their products that do overlapping jobs gets the most support.

Knowing that pushing one will hurt or even kill off the other....

The only compromise possible is to allow the passage of time, to entrench one of them enough it will continue to have enough of a following to be commercially viable after the "new" thing comes out.

Look how long it took Remington to put out the .260. According to stories, it was intentionally delayed so as not to kill off the 7mm-08. I think it quite likely that had they come out together, or close together, the 7mm-08 would have failed. Remington had their big 7mm Mag (a resounding success) and also the 7mm Express (former .280 Rem) and I think the 260 (6.5mm) on the .308case would have beat out the 7mm-08 for most hunting. Those who felt 7mm was needed, had other (long action) choices.

So, the .400 beats the .350? imagine that! Bigger bullets tend to work better, more often than not, and particularly when the velocities are similar or close.

Personally, I don't have an interest in either one, as I'm not restricted to them by game laws, and I'm not a fan of any AR pattern rifle for hunting, but that's just me...

[Buckeye!]

Still no rifles produced for the 400 Legend cartridge ..

[44 AMP]

Aren't "legends" by definition, tales from the past???

"Legend" is not a name to be bestowed on anything when it first comes out.

It has to do something, or be something for some time before becoming a "legend".

Of course, I don't think they teach marketers proper English. Or, if they ever did, they chose not to use it.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by bamaranger

I gotta tell ya though, the labels attached to these new cartridges....Buckhammer.......Legend, .......... really???????????

Marketing to the younger screen addict generation.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by Buckeye!

Still no rifles produced for the 400 Legend cartridge ..

Savage and Mossberg, between them, have about a dozen models. There are several AR manufacturer's cataloging them as well.

[rc]

So states pass laws to allow straight walled calibers to harvest deer instead of just slugs and buckshot. Think
357 mag, 44 mag etc. Now these companies come out with all these "new calibers" to push the performance envelope to bottle neck speeds. This may actually cause a reversal of the trend where the use of these new calibers are a problem.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by rc

So states pass laws to allow straight walled calibers to harvest deer instead of just slugs and buckshot. Think
357 mag, 44 mag etc. Now these companies come out with all these "new calibers" to push the performance envelope to bottle neck speeds. This may actually cause a reversal of the trend where the use of these new calibers are a problem.

Yep. I've sat in Wildlife Commission meetings where they are wringing their hands about this, drones, trail cams, thermals, etc. There are a few old school, pro-hunting commissioners hoping they can retire, but scared to. The middle road folks and then the non-hunter, even anti-hunter commissioners crying how unfair it is to the deer. Mom's whining about the Coyotes eyeballing her babies, etc. We have created a mess in the US.

[sourdough44]

Yeah, an older thread, bumping it because things have changed since the 400 Legend was introduced. Nothing wrong with grousing about the regulations. I don’t see any problem just allowing the 243, 308 & the rest, but things are as they are.

I don’t jump on every new introduction, but I do a fair amount of IL deer hunting. My iron of choice over the years has been my tricked out Knight ‘Elite’, using Blackhorn 209 powder. To me, it’s almost like a single-shot 308, stacks up deer & coyotes as well as anything. I don’t mind the extra fiddling, but am ready to try something else. I do own the 444 Marlin, 45-70, & a few others that qualify with the IL regs.

There is much more available than when the 400 Legend was introduced. I was never smitten with the 350, more of a modest range youth round, in my opinion. I’ll pick up my Savage 110 ‘Trail Hunter’ today, cases, dies & bullets inbound. Factory ammo is easily available. I think the 400 will eclipse the 350 in sales, with what’s left of the market, once word gets out.

My plan is to meet or surpass the performance of my 45 cal muzzle-loader, accuracy also. I was never interested in an AR platform with the 400, plus IL regs call for a single-shot anyway. I will say, buying from ‘grab-a-gun’ is exceedingly easy, shipped to local FFL.

Again, just putting it out there, reloading components, ammo, and rifle choices are much more available now.

[stagpanther]

The Legends, the Ham'r, and many of the other "Instant Death from Above" new cartridges designed to be shoe-horned into an AR share many of the same problems--mostly due to the magazine limit of a COL of 2.3" or less. Then it becomes a war of attrition between case propellant capacity and inherent ballistic efficiency of the bullet's design. That limits the selection and performance of bullets to experiment with. That said, if the 400 was out at the same time as the 350 legend I would never have even given the slightest thought to the 350 and would have immediately chosen the 400. The new 300 Ham'r I put together may possibly be even more ridiculous than the 350 Legend--but at least I have less to worry about the cartridge blowing up with the Ham'r.

[Pumpkin]

Maybe we should wait for the 375 Mega Death
Back to reality, of the two the 400 sounds more appealing than the long 9mm.
But, if history means anything, why did the 351SL seem do better than the 401?
Had I been around back then, I would have chosen the 401 hands down.
I agree, some of these names are just silly.

[stagpanther]

Maybe we should wait for the 375 Mega Death

Or the .17 "SALT Violator."