Indoor lead testing around tumblers.

[LE-28]

We all know that our vibratory tumblers are supposed to be a hot spot for lead contamination due to the dust.

But what about Ultrasonics and wet tumblers.

If I understand correctly, using Citric Acid to chelate the lead left from the primers, in our Ultrasonics and wet tumblers, will form a new compound that our bodies can't absorb, but the lead is still present in the compound.

Soooo?

Does that mean if we use a home lead detecting kit it will still show positive because it is still picking up the lead in the new chelated compound?

I was just wondering if I would be wasting my time and money trying to check for lead around my cleaning area?

[44 AMP]

I was just wondering if I would be wasting my time and money trying to check for lead around my cleaning area?

This is a yes and no thing. Yes, because it IS THERE. Count on it. NO, not a waste, IF it satisfies your concern, otherwise it is a waste of your time and money.

First thing you need to be aware of is the difference between detectable levels of a hazardous material and the concentration level that actually produces harm.

You also need to understand that the exposure limits you can easily access are often occupational limits, which are (in the US, anyway) the limits for occupational exposure 8 hours a day, five days a week.

and with lead, the chemical form of the lead matters a great deal. Solid metallic lead is not a huge hazard, unless you get shot with it, or a large amount falls on you. Lead vapor,/dust or lead in a soluble chemical compound is a different matter.

You already know that lead is there. So, testing that only tells you it is there is a waste of money. Testing that tells you how much is there, and if it is in a form your body will absorb and react with is what you need to know, in order to accurately assess your risk.

[Metal god]

I’d like to know the amount differences . What’s the difference between the areas surrounding a dry tumbler vs a wet tumbler. To take that one step further would be to include different manufacturers of dry tumblers . I know my Frankford uses a sealed-ish lid while my buddies Lyman has a vented lid that lets dust out no problem.

I use both wet and dry . For wet I use entirely inside , dry I load and tumble inside only because it stays relatively sealed when in use but drain and separate outside . Point being not only does it matter what type and model you use . It matters how and where you use it as it relates to the lead surrounding said area/s .

[mehavey]

I assume that if brass is de-primed first,
the tumbler/lead/dust issue goes away?

[Metal god]

Goes away ??? Doesn’t the igniting primer blow residue everywhere inside the case and primer pocket . I’m not sure how much crap is left in the primer , maybe lots but would assume there’s still some transferred throughout the spent case .

Then consider how many cases are being tumbled , depending on size of case the tumbler only holds so many . Couple hundred 308 or 1k 9mm which will have more of that residue and be more “hazardous” ?

[Unclenick]

Unfortunately not, and depriming likeky makes it worse by removing the cup that is covering the primer residue. Deprimed brass still has exposed primer fouling caked in the bottoms of the primer pockets and a dry tumbler picks a portion of that up and puts it into the media dust. We had a board member some time ago who had a friend whose company did lead contamination testing and his friend tested all his loading areas. He found acceptable levels on almost everything, including the bullet casting area, but the one place the alarms went off were all around his tumbler.

Liquid tumbling actually captures that residue in water and prevents it from going airborne as the dust from a dry tumbler does, especially during media separation. If you wet tumble with simple soap and water as the liquid, you wind up with lead-contaminated water that is a potential sewer system hazard. Using citric acid chelates the lead, which renders it unable to bond to fats or other blood compounds, so it basically makes the lead into a non-toxic, relatively inert form. I've had two experts state the acid will dezincify brass and weaken it, and two experts say it is great for cleaning brass because it removes copper as fast as zinc it does not weaken the underlying alloy other than by gradually etching it thinner, something that won't happen fast enough to be a concern for normal reloading life. I have personally let a 5% solution etch a 30-06 case for two weeks in a jar without the brass turning pink (a sign of dezincification). And while it did lose a few grains of weight, it still loaded and fired fine and without splitting, so I am inclined to go with the latter two experts.

[mehavey]

Oh dear....

[LeverGunFan]

Checking for lead in your work area will tell you if lead is present, but won't tell you if you have lead in your system. You can have your blood tested for lead the next time you see your doctor and then you'll know what you have, and you can periodically check it to see if it changes.

[zeke]

Am occasionally requesting a lead test (blood) when they take blood for annual physical. Otherwise might consider using a little water (tbsp or so) in walnut vibrating media to control dust, while increasing the media's effectiveness. Ten a covered media seperator.

Am also a sort who wears a facemask while sizing brass (depriming included) , and gloves while cleaning guns.

[cdoc42]

I agree with the pursuit of a lead-level blood test. If your lab test is normal, you may want to test the tumbler area as a guide to how often you should get a blood test. If the area is heavily contaminated, focus on prevention. You may want to use a mask while pouring the media in and out of the tumbler (NO connection to Covid!!). On a regular basis, I add a "Bounce" laundry anti-static sheet to the cases and media, replacing it when it is obviously full of accumulated dust.

But lead, although important, is not the only concern. Corn cob, walnut, or other finely ground media leaves a cloud of dust that may not be apparent but you breathe it in anyway. After years of inhalation, you may get a chest X-Ray reporting "benign granulomas" which themselves are not lethal but could be interpreted as possible lung metastases in the face of a known malignancy elsewhere. Knowing they were present in previous X-rays can revise that diagnostic impression. Smokers and others with chronic obstructive lung disease should also be aware of the need to protect the lungs from the media dust.

The other day I opened a new bottle of Lyman Tumbler Media with "Tufnut Plus" given to me by a friend, and it left a cloud in the garage as I have never to this day seen before when I simply poured it into the tumbler. The bounce sheet removed it after tumbling but I have to add another to the container of media itself and hope it does some pre-pour good. If not, I'll need to do the first pouring outside of the garage with the wind to my advantage.

[LE-28]

Thanks guys, very inlightening. 44 AMP, I hadn't thought about whether the lead was at a hazardous level or not. I guess like you said I know the lead is there, is there enough of it to hurt anything. I guess there's no point getting the lead testing kits.
I do deprime my cases before I clean them.
I deprime into a bottle so it should catch most of it.
I probably am getting more lead from the indoor range I shoot at then I get from my reloading operation anyways.

Uncle Nick, I wondered what the chelation process actually did to the lead to keep it from being absorbed.
Thanks again.

[rclark]

It is a non-issue (if using common sense) unless you like to chew on lead for some reason, or eat a sandwich while fishing cases out of the tumbler and such things. Normally just washing your hands when done is sufficient (lets say it works for me). No need to use gloves, masks, bunny suits, decontamination showers, etc..... Everyone has there own level of paranoia though.....

[Unclenick]

LE-28,

The word chelate comes from the Latin chela, meaning a crab or lobster claw. In chemistry it refers to certain organic molecules whose radical structures have an abstractly pincer-like shape. When lead forms a compound with these radicals, it is surrounded by the pincer such that it is no longer able to react with anything else very easily. It can be broken loose by some strong chemicals or heat, but not by water or the other stuff in your bloodstream. At least, not to a significant degree. I am simplifying greatly, but you can read more detail in the Wikipedia entry on chelation and on various educational institution websites. Chelating heavy metals is something of interest in environmental detoxification of soils and other things, so there's quite a bit of information available on it.

[Paul B.]

Has anyone besides me wondered just how much is lead a hazard or has the whole thing been blown out of proportion?

I'm most likely quite a bit older than most here and can only comment on my personal experience. I have been tested for lead in my body several time and the answer has always been the same. The level of lead in my body is slightly below normal for a person of my age. My birth year was 1938 which makes me 84 years old.

I started casting bullets at age 16 and at that time no one was fussing much about the hazards of lead. Fact is, I don't remember a hell of a lot of comment until the big fuss on lead shot killing water fowl and later the condor.

Back then I cast my bullets in an enclosed basement, no ventilation. Later on I had a part time job casting bullets for a local gun shop. Conditions there would have given OSHA fatal heart attack. An enclosed room about maybe 15'x15' with a bench and casting pots on the bench. Usually three to four of us working, each running two pots One to cast while the metal melted in the other. When pot #1 ran low I switched to pot #2 after filling pot #1 with fresh metal. When it was melted it got fluxed. We not only worked in that room but ate our lunch or drank a soda while working. Usually used two four cavity molded per bullet type. Wouldn't be considered a good idea today.

On chelation, I don't know much about that but I've since heard that orange juice was good for chelating lead from your system. I don't doubt strong lemonade might work as well. Back then I used to drink orange juice like it was water. I still drink OJ today , just nowhere in the quantity I did back then. Was that what kept my levels as low as they were? I dunno but I like to think it had a part in " getting the lead out."
Paul B.

[Metal god]

When I was growing up in the 70’s we fished a lot . How did I attach splitshots to my line ? By biting them closed . Did that well into the 90’s . Never been tested but would assume at different points of my life I was well above expectable levels . Same with asbestos and other breathable contaminants . Been in the construction field since the mid 80s and didn’t use decent masks until the mid-2000s . Worked on many old houses . Smoke cigarettes through my teens & 20s . Point being is I’m in for a world of hurt at some point snd not looking forward to it :-(

[Unclenick]

All citrus fruits have some citric acid in them, hence the chelating effect. I have no idea how much you would need to take in to matter.

I've tested fractionally high for lead in past decades when I was competing at indoor ranges before ventilation was required and before we knew any better. It has since gone away.

Where people get overexcited about lead is exposure to the metal form. I saw a guy on TV caution someone not to touch a piece of lead pipe he had on a bench without putting on disposable gloves. You'd have thought it was radioactive. That's nonsensical. The problem resides entirely in lead compounds that are water-soluble or that are broken down easily by stomach acid, like lead oxide used in old paint pigment. If you handle or shoot lead, wash your hands before you eat or contact things small children are likely to touch. If you walk out in front of a firing range, you will get it on the soles of your footwear, so you don't want to track it into a home where small children crawl around and touch the floor and then put their hands in their mouths because there will be lead oxide mixed in with the range dust. So keep your range shoes in a bag in the garage or something. Children's developing nervous systems are something like 20 times more sensitive to lead exposure than adult nervous systems are.

As far as casting goes, per the experience of the board member I mentioned in my previous post, it doesn't seem to be a source of lead in an absorbable form, so it doesn't need to be worried about as far as I can tell.

[rclark]

How did I attach splitshots to my line ? By biting them closed . Did that well into the 90’s .

I bet a lot of us did. Again we didn't grind to powder and ingest it... Just bit it closed. Lead in this state isn't going to hurt you.... You really really have to 'work' at it to get lead poisoning. Dad (and I) washed our hands in 'leaded' fuel to back then after working in the garage.... When I painted models I had a small bottle of gas to clean the brush in.... Still use lead solder for my electronic parts building and all.... So it goes.

[Aguila Blanca]

To further murkify the already murky topic, there are different levels for what's considered hazardous.

Some years back I used to shoot mini-combat shoots at an indoor range on Thursday evenings. It was a small, friendly group, and everyone generally pitched in to help run the events and to clean up. Like other folks, I often swept up brass (and lead!) between shooters so the next guy wouldn't be running around on a pile of roller bearings.

Surprise, surprise ... the blood test at my semi-annual physical at the VA hospital showed elevated blood lead levels. My doc at the VA was ready to send me out for some sort of specialized treatment because I was (she said) so critically above the "action level."

But something didn't feel right. At the time I was working in a municipal office, and the health department was right down the hall. This was a very small town, so the health department was two retired physicians, both excellent doctors. I took a copy of the report down the hall and button-holed one of the docs. To my relief, he told me I was nowhere near the action level -- for mature adult males. The number my doc at the VA was looking at was the action level for young children, under age 8 (IIRC).

So I didn't die of lead poisoning. I did stop sweeping up at the competitions, I moved my tumbler out of the basement to the garage so I can tumble outdoors, and my blood lead level came back to normal by the next physical.

[Unclenick]

...And doing anything that makes you sweat will help clear it out, too. Saunas are a standard heavy metal detoxification treatment.

[LE-28]

LE-28,

The word chelate comes from the Latin chela, meaning a crab or lobster claw. In chemistry it refers to certain organic molecules whose radical structures have an abstractly pincer-like shape. When lead forms a compound with these radicals, it is surrounded by the pincer such that it is no longer able to react with anything else very easily. It can be broken loose by some strong chemicals or heat, but not by water or the other stuff in your bloodstream. At least, not to a significant degree. I am simplifying greatly, but you can read more detail in the Wikipedia entry on chelation and on various educational institution websites. Chelating heavy metals is something of interest in environmental detoxification of soils and other things, so there's quite a bit of information available on it.
__________________

Maybe I missed it but what I'm looking for is I dry tumble my brass after it comes out of the US cleaner. It gets rinsed really well and set out to dry.
They usually have some degree of tarnish on the cases after they dry so I then, and only then, run them through the dry tumbler. I do not tumble dirty brass in the dry tumblers.

The lead that would be in the dry tumbling media should be chelated, so my question is will this chelated lead still show up as a lead contamination?

[Unclenick]

Ahh! Then you have no lead concern. The US cleaning solution has picked up the lead compounds, and if that is a citric-acid-based cleaner like the Hornady US cleaner, it should have chelated the lead carbonates and other water-soluble lead compounds. Mind you, I still wouldn't go drinking that stuff as any lead oxide present may or may not be completely done being broken down by the acid at that point, but it is safer to flush than would otherwise be the case, and you aren't in any danger of inhaling it at that point.

[Metal god]

I’m assuming lemishine works to chelate the lead in the water ???? Is that small amount we use in our wet tumblers enough or should I add a bunch more right before it finishes and tumble one more minute then rinse ?

[RoyceP]

Originally Posted by Paul B.

Has anyone besides me wondered just how much is lead a hazard or has the whole thing been blown out of proportion?

I'm most likely quite a bit older than most here and can only comment on my personal experience. I have been tested for lead in my body several time and the answer has always been the same. The level of lead in my body is slightly below normal for a person of my age. My birth year was 1938 which makes me 84 years old.

I started casting bullets at age 16 and at that time no one was fussing much about the hazards of lead. Fact is, I don't remember a hell of a lot of comment until the big fuss on lead shot killing water fowl and later the condor.

Back then I cast my bullets in an enclosed basement, no ventilation. Later on I had a part time job casting bullets for a local gun shop. Conditions there would have given OSHA fatal heart attack. An enclosed room about maybe 15'x15' with a bench and casting pots on the bench. Usually three to four of us working, each running two pots One to cast while the metal melted in the other. When pot #1 ran low I switched to pot #2 after filling pot #1 with fresh metal. When it was melted it got fluxed. We not only worked in that room but ate our lunch or drank a soda while working. Usually used two four cavity molded per bullet type. Wouldn't be considered a good idea today.

On chelation, I don't know much about that but I've since heard that orange juice was good for chelating lead from your system. I don't doubt strong lemonade might work as well. Back then I used to drink orange juice like it was water. I still drink OJ today , just nowhere in the quantity I did back then. Was that what kept my levels as low as they were? I dunno but I like to think it had a part in " getting the lead out."
Paul B.

Well said.

[Unclenick]

MG,

The Lemishine for dishwashers MSDS says 50-100% citric acid, but then says less than 2.5% fragrance, so it can't be 100% if the fragrance is in there. So the exact formulation is proprietary. But pure citric acid is cheaper than Lemishine on Amazon if you buy enough, so I just go with that. Don't really need to pay extra to get the special fragrance on my brass.

[Metal god]

But I like that Downy fresh sent as my cases eject

So how much pier citric acid neutralize is the lead or whatever it’s called and let’s say standard large Frankford arsenal rotary tumbler tumbling 800 9mm cases . Meaning does a 40S&W full of citric acid do the job on 800 deprimed 9mm case . I’m trying to figure out what needs to be down to dump it down my sink drain with no harm to the environment or dishes that may go in after .