cast bullets in 44mag, need load data help

[Shadow9mm]

Not sure where to start. Looking to build up some full powder 44 mags for a 44mag henry lever gun. Casting my own using a lee 240g swc gas checked mold. bullets are around 13bhn as cast. was considering water dropping. bullets will be powder coated so I was not sure if water drop was needed. will be gas checked.

Goal is a full power 44 mag load.

I have been using h110 with my 240g jacketed bullets, but am finding little load data for h110 with lead bullets.

currently have
h110 (trouble finding load data)
power pistol (AA only lists up to 210g bullets in 44mag)
hp-38
cfe-pistol
AA #7
clays (too fast)

I checked several sources so far from Hodgdon for pistol with a 240g swc had the best data.

CFE Pistol start 9.9 at 1117, max 11.9 at 1299
HP-38 start 5.5 at 800, max 11.0 at 1344
#7 start 14.7 at 1180, max 6.3 at 1341

with PC/gas checked, will I be able to use jacketed data, presuming the base is seated similarly?

[TJB101]

IMG_3293.jpg
Try this … I’m seeing 22gr of H110 to start for lead 240gr SWC

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by TJB101

Attachment 114760
Try this … I’m seeing 22gr of H110 to start for lead 240gr SWC

very helpful! thank you!

[totaldla]

If you're going to powder coat and gas check them then I would run them the same as jacketed - Max of 24gr of H110 (Hodgdon load data). And use a magnum primer.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

[44 AMP]

2400 is what Elmer used with his cast bullets, developing the .44 Mag.

its still a fine choice. His load (which is now the classic load) was his 250gr Keith bullet over 22gr of 2400 and a standard primer.

Might not be the ultimate optimal rifle load, but it will for sure work.

I use 2400 for jacketed bullets in .44 Mag. I do load cast, but to lighter levels and use Unique for that. 10gr Unique puts you in the 1100fps+ range from a longer (6" or more) pistol barrel.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

2400 is what Elmer used with his cast bullets, developing the .44 Mag.

its still a fine choice. His load (which is now the classic load) was his 250gr Keith bullet over 22gr of 2400 and a standard primer.

Might not be the ultimate optimal rifle load, but it will for sure work.

I use 2400 for jacketed bullets in .44 Mag. I do load cast, but to lighter levels and use Unique for that. 10gr Unique puts you in the 1100fps+ range from a longer (6" or more) pistol barrel.

I plan on trying 2400 when I can find some locally. so far no luck, so working with h110, which i have about 4lb of for 357 and 44mag.

[totaldla]

Alliant 2400 44 magnum load data

Always best start with published load data.

[Shadow9mm]

so I loaded 5rnds with 22.0g of h110. having crimp problems though. I adjusted seating perfect. Mouth below the top of the crimp groove. I then added crimp until my fingernail did not catch. Went to load them and something looked off and it shaved off a little lead. I think its crimping too fast as the bullet is still being seated. any way to fix this other than seat and crimp separate?

[totaldla]

I assume you are crimping and seating with the same die. So back the crimp out, adjust the seating, and then adjust the crimp.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by totaldla

I assume you are crimping and seating with the same die. So back the crimp out, adjust the seating, and then adjust the crimp.

That's what I did. I backed the die out. adjusted the seating. then backed seating out, and set the crimp. then with the case up into crimp I adjusted seating down until it touched so seat and crimp were both alligned.

The setup bullet looked great. but when I ran the first one it looked like that.

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

That's what I did. I backed the die out. adjusted the seating. then backed seating out, and set the crimp. then with the case up into crimp I adjusted seating down until it touched so seat and crimp were both alligned.

The setup bullet looked great. but when I ran the first one it looked like that.

seat and crimp die adjustment

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by totaldla

I assume you are crimping and seating with the same die. So back the crimp out, adjust the seating, and then adjust the crimp.

I told you completely backwards - sorry about that.

[Shadow9mm]

I set it correctly. The round used during setup looked fine. However when I went to do the next round. With seating and crimp both already adjusted and locked down, is when it gave me problems.

[black mamba]

Seat and crimp in separate steps. Adjust your die so that it just takes most of the belling out of the case mouth at the end of the bullet seating stroke. This will let you set the seating depth accurately. You want the top of the case mouth even with the top of the crimp groove. Seat all your bullets, then back out the seating depth stem a full turn and turn your die down about a quarter turn and check the crimp. You'll probably need to tweak it a little to get just the right amount. With the "all in one" seating/crimping die it's a bit of a pain, that's why so many get a dedicated crimp die like the Lee Factory Crimp Die. Works great and you just have to set it once.

[reddog81]

I bet if you seat that bullet a smidgen deeper it'll be fine. It looks like the crimp is digging into the bullet a bit too much. Adjust the seating stem down 1/8 or 1/4 of a turn.

The dies and bullets are made to be crimped in one step.

[hammie]

@Shadow9mm: I can tell by your posts that you're an experienced and knowledgeable handloader. So no one needs to tell you to make sure the cases are all trimmed to the same length.

I know the dies allow for seating and crimping in one step, but that doesn't mean they do it well. You are pressing down with the seater, while resisting that compressive force with the roll crimp...simultaneously. I have to agree with "black mamba". After ruining many .44-40 and .32-20 cases, I changed my procedure to seating and crimping in two steps. And even then, I was still crumpling a very few of the thin .44-40 cases with the roll crimp. I bought a Lee factory crimp die, which applies forces from the side, and all the problems went away. I now seat and crimp in two steps for any cartridge which requires crimping. Admittedly, you're adjusting the dies a lot, but for me, it just makes things better in the long run.

By the way, if you're doing a lot of load development with cast bullets, the "Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook" is a good reference to have on your shelf.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by hammie

@Shadow9mm: I can tell by your posts that you're an experienced and knowledgeable handloader. So no one needs to tell you to make sure the cases are all trimmed to the same length.

I know the dies allow for seating and crimping in one step, but that doesn't mean they do it well. You are pressing down with the seater, while resisting that compressive force with the roll crimp...simultaneously. I have to agree with "black mamba". After ruining many .44-40 and .32-20 cases, I changed my procedure to seating and crimping in two steps. And even then, I was still crumpling a very few of the thin .44-40 cases with the roll crimp. I bought a Lee factory crimp die, which applies forces from the side, and all the problems went away. I now seat and crimp in two steps for any cartridge which requires crimping. Admittedly, you're adjusting the dies a lot, but for me, it just makes things better in the long run.

By the way, if you're doing a lot of load development with cast bullets, the "Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook" is a good reference to have on your shelf.

Yes brass all same length, been down that road before, blasted short Hornady brass....

are you referring to the collet crimp? lee has a factory crimp, taper crimp, and collet crimp for 44 mag. I had looked at the collet crimp, as I have them for my rifle dies, but was not sure if it applied a taper or a flat crimp. And I know it can be very case length specific they way it works so I was not sure, using mixed brass sometimes, if they would all crimp evenly. I have about 250pcs of starline I am using, and another 300 or so once fired mixed I bought.

[totaldla]

The collet is not case length specific. Take a look at the crimps shown in my sig line to see the differences. I went to separate crimp step a very long time ago.

[Unclenick]

Per Totaldla's first link, the Collet-style Crimp Die produces neither a taper nor a roll crimp. It's a form of ring crimp.

[hammie]

@Shadow9mm: I was using the collet crimp.

[44 AMP]

You are pressing down with the seater, ....

No, you're not pressing down, with anything, you are pushing UP...

The die body is stationary. The seating stem is stationary, The bullet setting in the case mouth moves up as the ram is raised and stops when it contacts the seating stem.

Then as the ram continues its upward travel, the case is pushed up over stationary bullet until it reaches its full travel.

If the cases are the same length, and the bullets are the same length (from the point where they contact the seating stem to the crimp groove) AND the ram is operated the same distance every time, your results will be the same, every time.

[Unclenick]

Certainly should be. I don't know how the seater die was set up, but years ago, before I went to a separate crimping operation, I always put a charged, expanded, and flared case in the press and ran the ram up and turned the die body down until I felt the die's crimp shoulder stop on the case mouth, at which point I penciled a registration mark on the die thread and press. Then I withdrew the ram and set a bullet on the case, and alternated between lowering it and holding the die body from turning while I turned the seating stem in and running the round back up to seat the bullet deeper. I did this until the case mouth was over the middle of the crimp groove. Then I turned the whole die body in until the crimp formed. Next, a second bullet was seated and crimped to see if any further seating adjustment was needed. It sometimes was because seating and crimping all at once puts a little more stretching force on the press and also because, with a tapered crimp groove, I wanted the crimp near the top of the taper to get as much brass holding on as I could get, so I expected it to need some fine-tuning.

[langenc]

I believe that H110 and 296 (same powder) are NOT to be downloaded..

[hammie]

@44AMP: You're right. You are pushing up with the ram. That's an important correction and distinction in my narrative. Thanks for the observation. However, it makes no difference if the seater is stationary and the ram is moving, OR if the ram is stationary and the seater is moving. The compressive force on the bullet is identical. At the same time the cartridge case is resisting that force through the crimp. I've crumpled a lot of .44-40 cases while trying to do a heavy roll crimp.

In any case, the take-away for me is that it is better to do seating and crimping in two operations. I suppose? Yes? You and uncle nick are the experts (truly). And as forum member Professor Young says, "talk to me".

@langenc: You're correct. Certain slow powders shouldn't be reduced below starting loads.

[Shadow9mm]

I understand you should not work h110 down. The question is, where is start. General wisdom is start 23, max 24. But these seat deeper than the 240g xtp I am used to using. And I have my 240g xtp loaded at 22g without issue based off hornady data....

I loaded up 5 at 22.0, hopefully I can test a bit saturday.Saturday. will push up more when I have time