.357 in a long barrel

[Uncle Rick]

I have paid for all my equipment and supplies, though they haven't all arrived. Here's my question:

In researching loads for the .357 magnum, I decided I want to duplicate Elmer Keith's original, including his SWC bullet, but in hollow point. I will use H110 rather than 2400, because that seems to be a good modern replacement, and I could get a pound of it locally.

However, Keith's passion was hunting four-legged mammals with a revolver, so his loads were developed to deliver maximum performance out of a 6" barrel. While the next gun on my purchase list is a Ruger GP100 with a 4.2" barrel, the gun I have now is a Marlin 1894 CB, which has a 20" barrel. It seems to me that a slower burning powder would push that lead out of the muzzle at higher speeds than the H110.

​​​​​​​Any thoughts? Recommendations?

[Unclenick]

Welcome to the forurm.

A slower powder would give you more velocity if you could fit enough into the case to reach the same peak pressure and still produce a greater total volume of gas, but that will be challenging. H110 is already pretty close to the best compromise between burn rate and energy density and bulk density in the 357. Just checking commercial loads for maximum velocities at the same barrel length will tell you which powders can produce the best velocities. Powders not in the tables don't usually work well enough for people to get excited about them, though you do need to check several sources of data to confirm that. Simply using a lower burn rate than is normal for the cartridge usually results in low peak pressures, even with the load compressed, and a lot of unburned powder thrown away at the muzzle.

[Jim Watson]

Right. I bet a maximum load of H110 is mighty near a case full, no room for anything slower. I got better accuracy with 4227 but velocity was less and the unburnt powder leaves some reloaders in tears.

For more velocity out of a 20" lever action the solution is .35 Remington.

[gwpercle]

I looked at the reloading data for both rifle and handgun in 357 Magnum , in a couple of loading manuals .
From what I see H110 is the best choice ... in both rifle and handgun and they usually show the same max. charges ... the 20" rifle barrel just develops more velocity than the 6"or 8" pistol barrel does .
I can't see a better powder than H110 for both .
I was thinking maybe Accurate #9 ... but I don't see any improvement over H110 .
Gary

[Uncle Rick]

Wow! Thank you all for the prompt and well-informed feedback. I have The Complete Reloading Manual for the .357 Magnum, in pdf format, and I'm looking at the Lyman 358429 since I am using this bullet:

http://www.gtbullets.com/index.php?m...products_id=23

which is the 358439, the HP version of that bullet. While the chapters for other bullet manufacturers show both pistol and rifle data, the Lyman chapter only has pistol data.

[Uncle Rick]

Originally Posted by gwpercle

I looked at the reloading data for both rifle and handgun in 357 Magnum , in a couple of loading manuals .
From what I see H110 is the best choice ... in both rifle and handgun and they usually show the same max. charges ... the 20" rifle barrel just develops more velocity than the 6"or 8" pistol barrel does .
I can't see a better powder than H110 for both .
I was thinking maybe Accurate #9 ... but I don't see any improvement over H110 .
Gary

I would love to know what the loading data are that you found. The manual I have does not include H110, though I recall seeing elsewhere that maximum loads are around 14 to 15 grains. Am I remembering that right?

[blackhawk44]

Unless crimped over the front shoulder of the bullet, the 358429 would be too long to feed through your Marlin carbine. For the Marlin, 38 special brass would be better with that bullet with powder reduced appropriately.
With plain base cast bullets 2400 will offer less leading and generally better accuracy over H110. With jacketed and gas checked loads H110 works well.

[TX Nimrod]

I would love to know what the loading data are that you found. The manual I have does not include H110, though I recall seeing elsewhere that maximum loads are around 14 to 15 grains. Am I remembering that right?

The H110 authority:

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/rel...c=true&type=54





.

[Unclenick]

One reason you are not finding H110 or 296 (same powder, different branding) loads is that you are looking at a cast bullet. These take less force to push into the forcing cone and to engrave with the rifling than a jacketed bullet does, so the start pressure is lower and H110/296 generally needs good start pressure to sustain burning. Without it, there is more danger of it squibbing out (extinguishing) and leaving a bullet stuck in the barrel that then acts as an obstruction to the next round. That combination can bulge or even burst a barrel. With cast bullets, instead of a powder that lives on the edge even with jacketed bullets, you would do much better to find some 2400.

[Uncle Rick]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

One reason you are not finding H110 or 296 (same powder, different branding) loads is that you are looking at a cast bullet. These take less force to push into the forcing cone and to engrave with the rifling than a jacketed bullet does, so the start pressure is lower and H110/296 generally needs good start pressure to sustain burning. Without it, there is more danger of it squibbing out (extinguishing) and leaving a bullet stuck in the barrel that then acts as an obstruction to the next round. That combination can bulge or even burst a barrel. With cast bullets, instead of a powder that lives on the edge even with jacketed bullets, you would do much better to find some 2400.

Thanks for that information. I will surely try some 2400 in the future.

[Uncle Rick]

Originally Posted by blackhawk44

Unless crimped over the front shoulder of the bullet, the 358429 would be too long to feed through your Marlin carbine. For the Marlin, 38 special brass would be better with that bullet with powder reduced appropriately.
With plain base cast bullets 2400 will offer less leading and generally better accuracy over H110. With jacketed and gas checked loads H110 works well.

Yikes! I'll have to check that out before forging ahead. Thanks for that. I will post what I learn here.

I now have everything except the priming tool and the bullets. Oh, and the bench, which I will build from a Home Depot run. I was picking up the supplies today, but their panel saw is Tango-Uniform, so I came home empty-handed.

[Hammerhead]

Yup, true Keith 357 bullets have a long nose.
So you have to do what blackhawk44 suggests, or use a much more common SWC that will fit, like a MBC coated/cast SWC.
https://missouribullet.com/details.p...y=10&keywords=

[Hammerhead]

Didn't think Elmer hollow pointed them either.

[Jim Watson]

He did.
But feeding any SWC in a lever action is not assured.

Lyman thinks H110 is ok with cast bullets, look 'em up.

[Uncle Rick]

Originally Posted by Hammerhead

Yup, true Keith 357 bullets have a long nose.
So you have to do what blackhawk44 suggests, or use a much more common SWC that will fit, like a MBC coated/cast SWC.
https://missouribullet.com/details.p...y=10&keywords=

Those do look a lot like Elmer's bullets. Are they shorter?

[Jim Watson]

They look like it.

[mehavey]

Originally Posted by UncleNick

H110 is already pretty close to the best compromise between
burn rate and energy density and bulk density in the 357.

Quickload for a 20" barrel/158gr Jacketed maxes out near duplicatively w/ Lil'Gun/H110/296 & Norma 123 --- and totally-full cases/max pressure.

Get whichever you can, as all 4 (really only 3) powders give roughly the same performance.
(Lil'Gun has maybe a 1.5% advantage, but burns much hotter)

[44 AMP]

I use only 2400 in .357 magnum. And I load heavy, I'm sure SAAMI would not approve, but I don't give a rodent's posterior what SAAMI thinks, I load for my guns not national sales.

I don't have any .357s with barrels under 6" any more, and no K frames or lighter. S&W N frames, Ruger (new model) Blackhawk, T/C Contender, Marlin 1894 carbine and Desert Eagle and Coonan semi autos.

Lever guns are picky about swc bullets, and overall length. Unless the action is worked smoothly and at the speed it "likes" a SWC bullet's "edge" can hang up on the edge of the chamber. If the round bounces on the carrier this can happen.

In my carbine, I run jacketed .357 loads for serious use, and lead SWC .38 special loads for plinking. I use SWC .38s because that's what I have a lot of loaded. If I were concerned with consistent smooth feeding (for speed shooting) I wouldn't run SWC in a lever gun, I'd use a round nose profile bullet.

If I were looking to duplicate Keith's load I'd use 2400 powder, that's what he used, it works well and isn't as sensitive as H110.

[Uncle Rick]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I use only 2400 in .357 magnum. And I load heavy, I'm sure SAAMI would not approve, but I don't give a rodent's posterior what SAAMI thinks, I load for my guns not national sales.

I don't have any .357s with barrels under 6" any more, and no K frames or lighter. S&W N frames, Ruger (new model) Blackhawk, T/C Contender, Marlin 1894 carbine and Desert Eagle and Coonan semi autos.

Lever guns are picky about swc bullets, and overall length. Unless the action is worked smoothly and at the speed it "likes" a SWC bullet's "edge" can hang up on the edge of the chamber. If the round bounces on the carrier this can happen.

In my carbine, I run jacketed .357 loads for serious use, and lead SWC .38 special loads for plinking. I use SWC .38s because that's what I have a lot of loaded. If I were concerned with consistent smooth feeding (for speed shooting) I wouldn't run SWC in a lever gun, I'd use a round nose profile bullet.

If I were looking to duplicate Keith's load I'd use 2400 powder, that's what he used, it works well and isn't as sensitive as H110.

Thanks for that. Speaking of SAAMI, when looking for brass, I came across a site that claims its brass is "once-fire", which implies that it all started as factory loads, though it ain't necessarily so. Here's the photo on their site. Tell me if you don't think that four of these show signs of over-pressure. The one in the center doesn't, but how did those scrape marks on the primer get there? And the one to its left looks like it has been sand-blasted.

[Hammerhead]

Yes, those are the more common style of SWC that is a modified design for carbines and some revolvers. As noted above, some lever gun don't like SWC at all. Most of mine fed SWC in magnum brass, but were iffy when using special cases.
A cone shape flat point would be a safer bet in a lever gun.

[Nick_C_S]

I have .357's in 3", 4", 6", 8-3/8", and 16" bbls. The 16" being a Henry.

Just so you know, I tend to be a fast powder guy. I don't like big flashes and booms with tons of propellant burning in the air in front of my barrels. I've come of age where that just seems silly to me.

With 158 grain bullets (all jacketed for this discussion), I load almost entirely with 2400. Performance is great in all my guns. However, in my Henry rifle, I move to Winchester 296 (which is the same as H-110 under a different label). In the Henry, moving from 2400 to W296 gives me an extra 100 f/s; whereas, the W296 gives but a few extra f/s in the revolvers - with a ton of additional flash-boom-recoil.

IMHO YMMV

[44 AMP]

What happens with SWCs and my Marlin is that with the rifle in certain positions, or the lever not being worked at the "right" speed, the round on the carrier gets slightly misaligned with the chamber.

As the bolt pushes the round forward, the side of the bullet nose contacts the edge of the chamber. With any kind of RN or jacketed bullet this is no concern, the round just slides along into the chamber as the bolt closes.

But with a SWC, the edge of the chamber hits the "ledge" of the bullets front driving band and at that point the round STOPS! Continuing to apply pressure on the round, by trying to finish closing the lever simply jams the bullet against the chamber edge HARDER.

The trick to managing this is being aware of what's going on, first. And then do what needs doing. When cycling the lever and it just stops, the trick is not to try and force it closed, the solution is to open it just a tiny bit. Bumping the lever forward just a tiny bit, takes the pressure off the round, and then it falls back on to the carrier and is properly lined up for smooth chambering. SO, when a SWC jams during feeding, bump the lever forward just a bit, THEN close it and it will close smoothly ...usually...most of the time...

The other point about SWCs in lever guns is length. Specifically nose length and where the bullet is seated in the case. Some designs, when seated to the crimp groove have noses too long for the lever gun's feed mechanism, but work find in revolvers (where they were developed, generally).

Overlength rounds absolutly WILL go into the tube magazine just fine. What they won't do is feed out. Friend of mine once loaded some 210gr LRN slugs he got too long, without knowing they were too long. He put 2 rnds in the mag to test the feeding and the gun jammed up solid. He brought it to me and I had to disassemble the action to get the rounds out.

If whatever you load is at industry spec for length (or slightly below) it should feed fine, as far as length is concerned.

Using 2400 powder in my Marlin carbine, I can drive 158gr into the 1800fps range and I have driven 125gr at 2200fps. The 125gr JHP pistol bullet is seriously overdriven at that speed, and behaves quite differently than it does from a handgun barrel.

Cast bullets hard enough for good high speed performance are poor candidates for expansion. Even if they're hollow points.

[mehavey]

Cast bullets hard enough for good high speed performance are
poor candidates for expansion. Even if they're hollow points.

(You've seen this pic before. But at ~1,900fps, it's just so . . . useful. )
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...=1#post5001471

[Unclenick]

Yes. Powder coating has changed things. I look at it as a plastic approximation of paper patching, which has always let you shoot pure lead a lot faster. It also mitigates the bullet base powder blasting, so it is part of the way toward being a gas check alternative, like a thin version of the p-wads the late Roger Johnston developed and that are still sold by NECO.


Uncle Rick,

Lots of places sell fired brass. Many buy scrap brass from the military, who do not reload, so that stuff is truly "once-fired". The drawback is a lot of it will have been fired in full-auto weaponry which tends to stretch the brass and military brass is often hard and springy enough that the extra stretch will not allow a standard resizing die to fully return it to its original size. In that instance, a small-base die is then required the first time you size it yourself, while a standard sizing die is usually adequate after it has been fired in your gun. However, due to the high stretching some of it receives during military firing, it can be thinner or otherwise fail to last as many reloadings as new brass fired initially in your own chamber will. Some will last, some won't, and it can't be counted on to be consistent within a lot as it wasn't all fired in the same gun. So you have to look for incipient head separation and neck splits by inspecting after every firing.

There are a number of places, like Top Brass, that sell "conditioned" once-fired military brass. "Conditioned" means they have cleaned it, removed the spent primer, taken the military primer crimp out, and resized and trimmed it. They often use a roll-sizing rather than a convention resizing die. Roll sizers hydraulically roll the cases between two plates that have the new-brass case profile machined into them that forces the case exterior to have the correct profile. This brass is the easiest to use, as you can just load it as it comes and then reload normally thereafter until it is worn out.

There are some dealers, particularly smaller ones, who are not purchasing military scrap and who just sell range foundlings. A number of indoor ranges collect whatever falls out in front of the firing line and some don't allow brass pickup at all. These outfits are collecting brass with an unknown number of previous loadings and firings and it may or may not have much life left in it. These places are catch as catch can.


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[Uncle Rick]

Thanks for that. I just thought it funny that the site selling "fired once" brass would post a photo showing serious over-pressure evidence -- primer flattening and cratering.