Safe primer storage

[Shadow9mm]

Ok trying to understand safe primer storage. Had a rather heated discussion recently and am trying to get a clear understanding of things should be and why they are that way. Also e-mailed CCI to see what they recommend, waiting on a response.

Primers are to be stored cool dry place, I think that is a given.

SAAMI recommends https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...oc-Primers.pdf on page 5

Storage cabinets containing only primers are recommended. These cabinets should be ruggedly constructed of lumber at least 1” nominal thickness to delay or minimize the
transmission of heat in the event of fire. SAAMI recommends
against storing primers in sealed or pressurized containers

My issue is trying to understand what they mean by "sealed container".
Depending on how you look at things a taped up cardboard box could be considered a sealed container. You could also consider a wooden cabinet with doors that stay closed, even with a magnetic latch to be a sealed container.

Later on in page 6 is states

11-5.1 Small arms primers shall be transported or stored in
containers approved by the US Department of Transportation.

I am having trouble finding the USDOT container types. however I did find a SAAMI link with some information https://saami.org/transportation-and...-carrier-only/ as near as I can tell they have packaging layers

inner, intermediate, and outer. Outer can be made out of metal among other materials, which to me seems like a sealed container.

My understanding is that the intent is to prevent someone inadvertently baking a bomb but putting it in a container that is pressurized or could become pressurized enough to detonate, rather than deforming and releasing the pressure. Does this sound correct?

By my understanding of things plastic ammo cans should be safe for primer storage, although not the ideal 1 inch thick wooden cabinet. The seal is intended to keep moisture out, however the seal and plastic box would deform under minimal pressure making it unable to detonate.

Is there something I am missing? Building a 1" thick wooden cabinet is not an option for me at this point, and is rather vague in all honesty.

[BJung]

Maybe some military surplus wooden box or a wooden crate from the local wine shop? You could probably even add a hinge and lock on the latter. I store my primers in a downstairs closet. I happens to be the coolest and driest place and is under a fire sprinkler head.

What could be worse? Maybe have primed brass in a 30 or 50 cal can. I have a photo of such a can from a fire that had live ammo in it. It looks like swiss cheese.

[sako2]

these work for me. https://www.macys.com/shop/product/l...hoCc24QAvD_BwE

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by sako2

these work for me. https://www.macys.com/shop/product/l...hoCc24QAvD_BwE

The things it, it could be considered a "sealed container". In my opinion I would say it is safe, same as a plastic ammo can, not enough there for any pressure to build up, the problem is, where do you draw the line on "not in a sealed container"?

[reddog81]

I keep most of mine on shelf in my basement. I added some fire resistant drywall above and below the shelf they sit on. Would that make a difference? I don’t know but I figured it can’t hurt...

A basic 1” thick cabinet would be easy to make. I imagine they keep it vague because the design is unimportant. It doesn’t need to be sturdy. You could make a cube with one side that has a hinge on it.

[hounddawg]

anyone that needs a safe place to store their primers feel free to drop them off at my house. I promise to take real good care of them

[sako2]

When they say sealed i don't think they mean air tight. If they do then a gun case like this should be fine. https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/cabe...ingle-gun-case

[jimbob86]

Pretty simple to make a box of 2x4's .... that's exceed the 1" thickness by 50% at least.

[ocharry]

I use 20mm ammo cans....been doing it this way for 40 yrs. Never a problem

Ocharry

[BJung]

Wow, a 20mm ammo can! How much primers do you have?

[jimbob86]

Wow, a 20mm ammo can! How much primers do you have?

Not enough.

[big al hunter]

The reason for recommending 1" of wood is to protect the primers from ignition from heat. 1 layer of drywall on the outside of the box will add more heat resistance than additional lumber, and for less $$. More layers of drywall add more time protected from heat.

"Not sealed" means that the door isn't held shut. I built a warehouse for storage of fireworks several years ago. The roof was designed with a weak area in the middle so an explosion could vent up and out. The idea was to prevent the walls and roof structure from collapsing immediately during a fire. The primer storage box needs a similar vent. Something that will stay closed if there is heat on the outside, but won't be held shut to develop pressure as the primers start to ignite. A simple design that uses screws to assemble the box on the sides and bottom. Then set the top on and only put a few nails in it, such that the nails can pull out of the sides during an explosive ignition inside. You can still lock the door to prevent little hands from getting inside, but not create a bomb in the process.

[ocharry]

Burbank....like jimbob said....not enough

When we were shooting all the time I bought them by the sleeve..5000 in a sleeve.....cowboy shooting...combat shooting...long range stuff...bpcg....yep I was using them.....the Dillons were always pumping

So yes I still have a few...and they reside in 20mm ammo cans

I also keep powder in separate 20mm ammo cans.....they work good...lol...military uses them...why not me...or you

Today.....can you say goldmine...lol.....and nope they ain't for sale

The old saying still holds true....." Buy it cheap and stack it deep "

Ocharry

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by big al hunter

The reason for recommending 1" of wood is to protect the primers from ignition from heat. 1 layer of drywall on the outside of the box will add more heat resistance than additional lumber, and for less $$. More layers of drywall add more time protected from heat.

"Not sealed" means that the door isn't held shut. I built a warehouse for storage of fireworks several years ago. The roof was designed with a weak area in the middle so an explosion could vent up and out. The idea was to prevent the walls and roof structure from collapsing immediately during a fire. The primer storage box needs a similar vent. Something that will stay closed if there is heat on the outside, but won't be held shut to develop pressure as the primers start to ignite. A simple design that uses screws to assemble the box on the sides and bottom. Then set the top on and only put a few nails in it, such that the nails can pull out of the sides during an explosive ignition inside. You can still lock the door to prevent little hands from getting inside, but not create a bomb in the process.

So in theory, a metal or wood liner in the base of a plastic ammo can, so the pressure would go up and pop the lid? or perhaps holes drilled in the lid covered with tape or taped in saran rap to break and vent in the event of any pressure buildup?

[big al hunter]

So in theory, a metal or wood liner in the base of a plastic ammo can, so the pressure would go up and pop the lid? or perhaps holes drilled in the lid covered with tape or taped in saran rap to break and vent in the event of any pressure buildup?

That would probably work. The issue I see with using ammo cans is that it is mobile. You are basically building a claymore. A little directional grenade. If the ammo can is always stored upright on a shelf that is fire resistant so firefighters would not be exposed to shrapnel from the lid while fighting the fire, then probably OK. If it is usually left on the floor under your loading bench, not so good.

Do you already have the ammo cans? Material to build a small cabinet out of lumber and drywall is not much more expensive than a metal and plastic can combined.

[rc]

I would store the primers in 30 cal cans if moisture is a concern. If you have a house fire, the can detonating in a storage area is the least of your worries. Ammo cans are designed to store ammo that can be explosive in a fire. I would think they are fine for primers too. If worried about pressure build up. duck tape a drilled hole and stop worrying about fire so much. Moisture would be my biggest concern for long term storage.

[Unclenick]

Ammo cans get their name from what they are designed to transport and move around in a combat zone. The latches that squeeze the rubber seal to make them waterproof are the problem for higher power explosive content. I would never store a can of black powder in one. I don't know that fast pistol powder would be dramatically safer. I would expect rifle powder to swell the container until it leaks gas, but haven't done the experiment.

Explosion-proof solvent storage lockers are metal, so that's not the issue, but rather it is how readily the doors or lids blow open and how long they can hold heat off in a fire. Break-away hinges and latches are often employed. The walls have the same materials a fire-proof safe has in its walls. But they aren't moisture-proof. You could build one from ceramic fiber board attached to the outside of a steel shelving set that serves as the frame.

For moisture-proof storage, you could get some of the 5-gallon paint buckets and lids from Home Depot or Lowe's. I would put what I was worried about inside and stick a humidity monitor in and check it periodically and add or remove desiccant as needed. But really, the best thing is probably have a dehumidifier working in your basement or storage area. Bringing it down to 60% RH greatly reduces rusting rates for steel or other content anyway.

I would not put a desiccant in with anything without first measuring the RH. The Norma manual has a section on powder and moisture content and it turns out powders are stored in the middle RH range and the resulting moisture content is what burn rates are tested at. Norma says taking a powder from 80% RH to near 0% RH causes about a 12% increase in burn rate, so if you don't want to obsolete your load data, you don't want your powder too dry anymore than you want it too wet. I assume primers like the same sort of environment.

The Norma manual also notes that non-military ammunition (not sealed) has its powder gradually equilibrate to the ambient RH over a period of about a year. So I wouldn't store ammo with a desiccant, either, or it will shoot hotter than it was when you loaded it.

[Shadow9mm]

I got a responce from CCI

Jonathan,

Storage in a plastic container should not be an issue. What they are trying to steer away from is primers being stored in metal cans as it can create a pipe bomp type of effect if something were to happen.

Thanks,

Cody B./Technical Service Rep.
CCI/Speer/Alliant
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
(866)286-7436

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Ammo cans get their name from what they are designed to transport and move around in a combat zone. The latches that squeeze the rubber seal to make them waterproof are the problem for higher power explosive content. I would never store a can of black powder in one. I don't know that fast pistol powder would be dramatically safer. I would expect rifle powder to swell the container until it leaks gas, but haven't done the experiment.

Explosion-proof solvent storage lockers are metal, so that's not the issue, but rather it is how readily the doors or lids blow open and how long they can hold heat off in a fire. Break-away hinges and latches are often employed. The walls have the same materials a fire-proof safe has in its walls. But they aren't moisture-proof. You could build one from ceramic fiber board attached to the outside of a steel shelving set that serves as the frame.

For moisture-proof storage, you could get some of the 5-gallon paint buckets and lids from Home Depot or Lowe's. I would put what I was worried about inside and stick a humidity monitor in and check it periodically and add or remove desiccant as needed. But really, the best thing is probably have a dehumidifier working in your basement or storage area. Bringing it down to 60% RH greatly reduces rusting rates for steel or other content anyway.

I would not put a desiccant in with anything without first measuring the RH. The Norma manual has a section on powder and moisture content and it turns out powders are stored in the middle RH range and the resulting moisture content is what burn rates are tested at. Norma says taking a powder from 80% RH to near 0% RH causes about a 12% increase in burn rate, so if you don't want to obsolete your load data, you don't want your powder too dry anymore than you want it too wet. I assume primers like the same sort of environment.

The Norma manual also notes that non-military ammunition (not sealed) has its powder gradually equilibrate to the ambient RH over a period of about a year. So I wouldn't store ammo with a desiccant, either, or it will shoot hotter than it was when you loaded it.

Very interesting. I usually screw my powder lids down pretty good, humidity generally stays around 30% mark in the box, so lower but not crazy low. I was trying to use it as a buffer between the powder bottle and the outside. The sealed the powder should be good by itself, and keeping the box low will insulate it from humidity fluctuations in the house.

Are primers effected the same way? I would be more worried about them as they are not closed up in a bottle and more susceptible to absorbing moisture

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by burbank_jung

Wow, a 20mm ammo can! How much primers do you have?

ammo cans are amazing. and wicked cool. i try to avoid using them for primers, but they are great for tons of other things. Got a couple 30mm can in my shed for storage.

Sportsmans guide has tons of ammo cans.
https://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...-used?a=868496

[Shane Tuttle]

Can you clarify a few points for me? I want to make sure we're all on the same page, here:

Are you asking for specific parameters for storage of primers so you know EXACTLY how to store them to the letter of the law?

If so, is it for your own benefit/informational purposes in case you run into issues with, say, homeowners' insurance, etc.?

Also, are you asking in order to spec out a container to build to comply with said parameters? Or to find an approved container?

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by Shane Tuttle

Can you clarify a few points for me? I want to make sure we're all on the same page, here:

Are you asking for specific parameters for storage of primers so you know EXACTLY how to store them to the letter of the law?

If so, is it for your own benefit/informational purposes in case you run into issues with, say, homeowners' insurance, etc.?

Also, are you asking in order to spec out a container to build to comply with said parameters? Or to find an approved container?

I would like to understand what the proper parameters for storage are, in particular what is mean my "sealed container" as it is just as vague as "wooden cabinet". I am hoping by understanding what the recommendations the reasons they were put in place. With this information i can assess my current storage method and see what if any improvements I need to make, and or am able to make.

I would be curious to see what an "approved container" is for DOT.

For the specs for SAAMI for storage its just a "1 inch thick wooden cabinet" to slow down burn in the event of a fire as I understand it. It could be build to size as needed but keeping it closed and little hands out, without creating a "sealed container" is the trick.

[cdoc42]

I think Unclenick's reference to humidity is as far as I would go. Humidistats in my home target a range from 35-50%, year-round. In dry winter, I use humidifiers in various floor levels, augmented by a humidity device connected to my propane fired furnace. In humid summers, my air conditioning takes care of that with the help of dehumidifiers if needed.
I'm not particularly focused on keeping my powder or primers in any sort of ideal condition, just an environment that is ideal for the family. I load shotshells in the garage where I have NO humidity control, so all powder and primers are store in my real reloading room where there is control. I just cart the primers and powder to the garage when needed.

I store my reloading room powders and primers in standard wooden kitchen cabinets, away from each other, of course. If there is any reason get more focused than that, I'm all ears.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by cdoc42

I think Unclenick's reference to humidity is as far as I would go. Humidistats in my home target a range from 35-50%, year-round. In dry winter, I use humidifiers in various floor levels, augmented by a humidity device connected to my propane fired furnace. In humid summers, my air conditioning takes care of that with the help of dehumidifiers if needed.
I'm not particularly focused on keeping my powder or primers in any sort of ideal condition, just an environment that is ideal for the family. I load shotshells in the garage where I have NO humidity control, so all powder and primers are store in my real reloading room where there is control. I just cart the primers and powder to the garage when needed.

I store my reloading room powders and primers in standard wooden kitchen cabinets, away from each other, of course. If there is any reason get more focused than that, I'm all ears.

yeah, my house has some issues I am working on, humidity in the summers gets up into the 70% range if I am not careful and down into the 20% range in the winter. Not so much worries about the winter as the summer levels.

Kitchen cabinets are not a bad idea. I think the 1" thick was to slow down fire. You could add drywall as an extra layer, but that stuff really seems to hold moisture. I can never seem to get one of my safes to dry all the way out, and it has that stuff in it.

[Kevin Rohrer]

I throw mine on a shelf in a cool, dry location and don't worry about gov'mint regulations.

Don't overthink simple things.