Why is the 30-30 Win neck so long ?

[Metal god]

Hello everyone

Pretty straight forward I guess . I'm looking for the reason why if any . I have an old bolt action 30-30 that uses a magazine . Formost I believe is the name which I believe was made by ... shoot I don't remember -Savage maybe ???

Anyways I was thinking of loading some pointy bullets for it but even 150gr FMJ's seated to the crimp groove are way to long for the mag . If I were to trim about half the neck off which I believe would leave plenty of neck for bullet hold . I then think the 150gr pointy bullets would work ???

My only hesitation would be they are the wrong type of bullet for the cartridge and would hate for any mix up later by me or anyone else . I don't have any other 30-30 now but will likely end up with a lever action 30-30 at some point .

Your thoughts ?
MG

Side note , the 270 has a pretty long neck , why do these cartridges have such long necks , is there an actual reason/purpose ?

[big al hunter]

The neck is so long because it was born in a time when that was in fashion.

The recoil should be light enough to not require crimping into the groove. Just seat them to fit the magazine. If I were in your shoes, I would put a big,bright label on the box that states only for bolt action.

[mehavey]

30-30's parent case is the straightwall 38-55 (.375/.380" caliber), necked down for 308.
Original bullet was 160gr.

If you take a modern 165gr RN, the required shank seating depth is almost exactly the neck length of the case.

[44 AMP]

why do these cartridges have such long necks , is there an actual reason/purpose ?

I don't actually know, and the designers are generations dead, so we can't ask them, but I have a couple ideas you might consider...

First off, the "long neck" on the .270 Winchester might be simply because it is the 270. Meaning, you take a .30-06 case and squeeze the neck smaller in diameter, it gets longer.

The 270 kept the 17 degree 30 minute shoulder angle of the 06, and the case body length, (base to the bottom of the shoulder) is the same as the 06.

However the total overall length of the two cases is slightly different. The 06 =2.494" and the .270 = 2.540"

SO, keeping the same body length and shoulder angle and reducing the neck from .30 size to .270 size results in a slightly longer neck.

Now, my guess about the .30-30 is just conjecture, but seems reasonable to me...

The .30-30 was, in its day, a high pressure round. And, it was designed for use in Winchester's lever action model 94. The "long" sloping shape of the round aids extraction.

Remember that we're not dealing with the powerful camming action of modern bolt actions. And, that at the time, it was a high pressure round, compared to black powder cartridges.

Note that virtually all of the classic African "ivory hunter" cartridges are long, tapered rounds, (and not loaded to high pressure by today's standards). They were made for use in double rifles, and very hot places, so a moderate pressure round with a long taper to it aided in extraction, and therefore dependability.

This was known at the time the .30-30 was designed. so I THINK it was made that way so it would work better, both going in and coming out of the chamber. And, even if there was no measurable result, it certainly didn't hurt anything, so, why not?

[lordmorgul]

I would be concerned that a short neck and long pointy bullet will result in a very long jump to rifling lands, and possibly very poor accuracy. Should be no reason to be concerned with safety. The feeding could be unreliable with different bullet shape and further back.

The Hornady 160 FTX loads and shoots fine for my Dad’s Marlin with no games. I’d recommend just using that instead.


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!

[Metal god]

The Hornady 160 FTX loads and shoots fine for my Dad’s Marlin with no games. I’d recommend just using that instead.

I think those necks are cut shorter to allow for the longer ogive ??? I have some I should go look .

[lordmorgul]

Hmm maybe? The loaded LeverRevolution could be. We actually just loaded some into his mixed cases, some were Hornady cases others were not, trimmed them all to the Wilson case gauge.

* but that’s for use in a tube magazine so not sure if it was actually meeting box mag length, but they feed fine

Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!

[lordmorgul]

So I’m not an expert on 30-30 loading for sure, just a point of ref.

We loaded
140 gr Hornady Monoflex, 2.570” COAL, didn’t measure bullet length, monolithic copper alloy
160 gr Hornady FTX, 2.535” COAL, Bullet Length 1.135”

Both fed fine, needed to work on the loads for consistent accuracy and haven’t been back at it since first run. And necks were just barely trimmed from once fired factory stuff to fit in case gauge, 20-30mil taken off or so.


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!

[Geezerbiker]

We have 2 .30-30 Savage bolt guns in my family and I've loaded spitzer bullets in them. Like what was said before, load them as long as you can seat them in the mag and there's no need to crimp them since they're not bumping against each other in a tube mag.

One downside is that you won't be able to eject an unfired round unless you drop the mag. It's a minor inconvenience but something you should be aware of before you go hunting with it.

Tony

[Metal god]

I’ll have to take another look but me pointing out the crimp groove was not to suggest I needed to crimp them . Rather pointing out the general max seating depth . The ogive on these 150gr fmj starts shortly after the crimp groove . I need to measure a few things and see how far past the groove I can seat with out seating past the baring surface .

[Grant 14]

Would the deeper seating of a bullet, reduce the case/cartridge volume and raise chamber pressure? It is a thought that crossed my mind and I wonder? Grant.

[Metal god]

Maybe a little but I’ll be starting low so that’s not a concern for me

[Metal god]

That's the difference in length compared to the 160gr FTX . As you can see there is just a little more baring surface after the crimp grove but not enough to fit in mag . It's a bit closer that way and I would not need to trim off as much .

[lordmorgul]

Yeah that’s quite a bit longer. Could you measure that bullet? I’d be interested in what happens when you try, I had discussed the question of trying to use 150gr GMX in 30-30, which may be about that long too. Less pointy I think but is monolithic copper so probably is.

Supposedly the FTX is also a softer and blunter plastic tip to not risk setting off primers?

The 160 gr FTX is not a very good flyer, kinda like a brick actually.


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!

[scatterbrain]

I wanted to load 300 grain bullets in my 444 and was concerned about the need to shorten the case to hit the crimp groove. I happened upon some LeverRevolution 265 grain loaded ammo and bought a box. I turns out that Hornady shortened the brass also to fit the bullet and their length was what I needed for the 300 grain bullets.

[FrankenMauser]

.30-30 has a long neck because it was designed with cast bullets in mind. Keeping the lube grooves (and potentially a gas check) sealed within the neck of the case was important for: A) Not contaminating the power. And, B) Not having your lube get a bunch of dirt and grit embedded.

.270 Win has a long neck because it is NOT a child of .30-06, even though the entire world *still* incorrectly claims such.
.270 Win is based on .30-03, the long-necked parent of .30-06.

[44 AMP]

Point of view, I suppose, but I don't think 0.046" makes the neck "long". I'd go with "longer" than the 06 though.

When the difference in max case lengths is less than half of one tenth of an inch, I don't see where it matters a lot, for conversational purposes...

[Metal god]

When the difference in max case lengths is less than half of one tenth of an inch, I don't see where it matters a lot, for conversational purposes...

I load A LOT of 308 so that's where I get my reference . I look at the 308 neck then look at others and in that context the 270 and 30-30 have long necks .

I'll also add that I measured the Hornady FTX case and a Remington corelok and they both had the same length case or at least close enough . I think there was .003 difference if even that .

[Scorch]

If you are going to load spitzer bullets in a 30-30, use flat based bullets. They are shorter overall. I have loaded spitzers in 30-30 for my Savage 99.

First off, the "long neck" on the .270 Winchester might be simply because it is the 270. Meaning, you take a .30-06 case and squeeze the neck smaller in diameter, it gets longer.

The 270 Winchester has a longer neck because it is based on the 30-03, which had a longer neck than the 30-06.

[Metal god]

Nobody has actually had any ideas as to why some necks are longer. I hoped by including the 270 everyone would understand I was including all cartridge necks that “seem” longer then they need to be and if there's a internal ballistic reason for it .

Yes I’m looking for 30-30 specifics but still wanted a general understanding as well .

The 270 Winchester has a longer neck because it is based on the 30-03, which had a longer neck than the 30-06.

That all said , the next obvious question would be ..... wait for it ...................................why did the 30-03 have a long neck

[Geezerbiker]

I think the real reason the .30-30 has a long neck is because John M. Browning designed it that way.

Tony

[Metal god]

Haha , That’s what I was thinking and there is no reason or as some are saying the parent cases were from old cartridges that may have used black powder first or were based off of black powder cartridges. I just feel like they were like if it ain’t broke don’t fix it and just left them as is . I just wanted to be sure before I started hacking half the neck off that I wasn’t causing any other unforeseen issues .

[FrankenMauser]

That all said , the next obvious question would be ..... wait for it ...................................why did the 30-03 have a long neck

Because the designers of the cartridge felt that extra support was necessary for the long 220 gr RN bullet used in .30-03.

Nobody has actually had any ideas as to why some necks are longer.

I gave the primary reason for the "long" .30-30 neck in the very post that you quoted.

[Metal god]

Thanks Frank , although I read it I didn’t fully appreciate what it said until I reread it . The 30-30 explanation makes a lot of sense .