crappy alliant

[PocketCamera]

loaded up some speer 148 grain hbwc. fun proces..

used the 3.1 gr load data for .357 cases, bullet went to target, one came back and got me. had alot of drop at 15 yards. like a foot on a few. they seem to be tough little things.

Then i went about the net and saw some would put 3.1 gr Bulls Eye as the max load for 38 special cases. Others would put 3.5 grains as the max hot load in a 38 case. either way i was a tad under charge for a .357 case going by the "add 10% rule"

[mikejonestkd]

3.1 gr of bullseye under a 148 GR HBWC bullet is a pretty standard target load. I use a similar load in 38 spl cases all the time with good results. Even in the slightly longer 357 case you still should be OK

The bullet that came back and got you, what was the target made of? if it was steel I would suggest checking the angle of the plate on the post.

[PocketCamera]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.


Its got me feeling a tad nervy.

shooting at note pad propped up on a piece of firewood backed by a 4x8 inch oak beam thats kind of rotting and splintering now. also noticed this afternoon that a bit of dirt/moss was turfed right in front of target. so it had a trip.

the barrel was clean as can be except for a big dose of unburned powder. SO im wondering if i needed more powder or not. the 2004 alliant manual has up to 8 grains of BE being used in the 357 case with an unspecified 148 grain lwc.

[Rod47]

Are you nuts?

[44 AMP]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

the 2004 alliant manual has up to 8 grains of BE being used in the 357 case with an unspecified 148 grain lwc.

Better check that data again, closely..its got to be a mistake.
8gr of Bullseye is more than a double charge for a 148 WC and very likely could blow out the cylinder even in .357 Mag.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by PocketCamera

the 2004 alliant manual has up to 8 grains of BE being used in the 357 case with an unspecified 148 grain lwc.

The 2014 Alliant manual says the max charge for Bullseye with a 148-grain bullet is 3.1 grains.

That's in .38 Special brass. They don't list a 148-grain bullet under .357 Magnum.

[74A95]

My Alliant 2004 Reloader's Guide has the following data for 357 magnum:

148 LWC, Bullseye 5.7 gr, 1,475 fps, 34,000 psi.

148 LWC (target), Bullseye 2.8 gr, 780 fps, 10,000 psi.

Both bullets loaded to 1.33" OAL. Test barrel 5.6".

[TX Nimrod]

Lyman maximum data for a 141-grain WC is 6.8 grains of BE for 40,600 CUP. That’s pretty hot.

The thread‘s title is misleading, just what is “crappy” about Alliant as a company? Enquiring minds want to know...


.

[PocketCamera]

i asked for clarification on what bullet they were using for that load data, ie, HBWC or DEWC.... not even a dust bunny can reply at alliant customer support these days. Not even the automatic message bunny

[74A95]

Originally Posted by PocketCamera

i asked for clarification on what bullet they were using for that load data, ie, HBWC or DEWC.... not even a dust bunny can reply at alliant customer support these days. Not even the automatic message bunny

What you report as the charge weight with Bullseye is NOT what is printed in my version of the 2004 Alliant loading manual. See post #7.

You better look at your source again, or this is going to be written off as trolling.

[stinkeypete]

A good thing about a very fast powder like Bullseye is that it works well in very small charges even rattling around in a huge case.

Bad things about very fast powders like Bullseye is that the pressures generated are very unforgiving for very small measurement errors or even variations from lot to lot of powder for high pressure "maximum" loads.

Bullseye is also very economical but this means that there is a vast amount of space left inside the brass after a charge and so a double charge error fits just fine. You would never notice it unless you looked very carefully before seating the bullet. And then things WOULD blow up. No doubt about it- kaboom.

The correct solution is that there is nothing wrong with 3.5-5 g of bullseye for this bullet but if more velocity is wanted- use something similar to 2400 and consult a modern manual for safe load data.

[lll Otto lll]

Originally Posted by PocketCamera

SO im wondering if i needed more powder or not. the 2004 alliant manual has up to 8 grains of BE being used in the 357 case with an unspecified 148 grain lwc.

8 grains of Bullseye? That's 40% over MAX which puts you in Kaboom territory.

[PocketCamera]

played with some more today. just 38 specials. oddly enough, hbwc are the only bullet that the lee dies actualy seat and crimp at the same time the lever is fully raised. any other bullet and it screws up.

[74A95]

This thread has no real value. Seems like the ramblings of a troll. I suggest that Moderators shut it down.

[PocketCamera]

let me guess you dont like lee products....

[74A95]

Originally Posted by PocketCamera

let me guess you dont like lee products....

Wrong.

[PocketCamera]

the new reloading data from alliant or speer website uses the 3.1 grain bulls eye load that was listed for .357 mag cases for 38+p. THAT was a fun load in a 38 special case this morning. actually had recoil to it, and ok accuracy. Red Dot far better in accuracy and same stiffer recoil.

some reason the reverse loaded HBWC actually shot better group wise and poi/poa at 8 yards then the regular loaded stuff did at 20 yards.

[Aguila Blanca]

Let's keep the discussion on topic.

The issue is: What's the appropriate charge of Bullseye for a 148-grain HBWC projectile in a .357 Magnum case? We don't need to argue about who likes or doesn't like Lee to discuss the issue.

[Aguila Blanca]

If you reverse a hollow-base bullet, it's no longer a hollow base, so you're probably getting more velocity.

[Unclenick]

Assuming the OP is not trolling, a couple of points to make are:

It doesn't matter if the 148-grain bullet is DEWC or HBWC, provided they are seated nose-forward and are made of the same material and are seated to the same COL, the extra space taken up by the greater length of the HBWC is given back as space in the hollow base, so the net powder space is the same. For the reverse HB wadcutter, if you seat it all the way down to flush with the case mouth, the powder space will be smaller and pressure will increase significantly. To make pressure match, the HB-forward load needs to be seated to stick out of the case by an amount equal to the difference between its length and the DEWC's length.

If you look at Hodgdon's data for wadcutters in .38 Special and .357, for 231 the .357 max load is actually smaller. I attribute this to the primer unseating the bullet in the .38 Special so that more space actually results. I emailed Hodgdon about this long ago and the came back that this is what their ballistic technician said the test results actually showed. So the 10% rule may not apply in small spaces. It depends on the powder.

If there was a bunch of unburned Bullseye in the gun, you had some kind of ignition failure resulting in a super low-pressure event. I would not expect that with Bullseye. Make sure it is dry. I would make sure to have some crimp on the bullets, though. If your sizing die is only sizing the cases marginally or if they are work-hardened enough from repeated reloadings to tend to spring back out a bit after resizing and you didn't put enough crimp on the case, then the bullet popping out under primer pressure and before the powder really gets burning is a possibility. Also, if your bullets are wax lubricated and the cartridges got hot in the car, the lesser possibilty of wax contaminating the powder also exists. Especially with HB bullets store nose-down, putting the powder into that waxy hollow. You can sharpen a used case with a chamfering tool and use it to cut discs from paper and put one over the powder before seating the bullet to prevent that effect.

[jdscholer]

Most of the hollow based wadcutters I've used are very soft swaged bullets. With a charge hotter than 3.2 gr. or so, they will start leading your barrel, and possibly squirting the hollow base skirt out through the cylinder gap.

My go-to load for years in 357 and 125 gr jacketed or plated, is 7.0 gr. of Bullseye. this is an extremely accurate load with great trajectory that shoots POI at 25 yds, and again at 100 yds. It is a pretty snappy load, but still a grain below max as listed in my Lyman book. jd

[PocketCamera]

made some in 38 cases same powder charge. lot more recoil. lots more. better accuracy ut re dot was better

[Rod47]

Hbwc',s are not magic bullets. Unless you understand the relationship between case construction, re- sizeing, expanding, and crimping, you would be better off with a cast wc. You could easily end up with a skirt seperation from excessive pressure.

[Unclenick]

He's trying some reverse loaded HBWC's. That stops the base from being blown out by muzzle pressure. It is also an old trick to get a lot of expansion at relatively low velocity (think snubby's here). But if the HB shot more accurately reversed, it's because it sees too much muzzle pressure at the load level used. In 38 Special, 2.7 grains of Bullseye under one of these bullets it the old standby target load. Given the funny results Hodgdon got with 231, I would start even the .357 cases with 2.7 grains and chronograph it and do the same with some .38 Special cases to see how the velocity compares.

[Rod47]

Uncle Nick ..I tried that 50 years ago when we didn't have many expanding bullets available. It is very dramatic. My fear is having a younger shooter have a bad experience with lead bullets. I'm sure we agree cast bullet performance can be tedious at times.