Rusting in safe..

Old Stony · August 27, 2018, 04:27 AM

I think I need some advice on one of my safes. I have four safes full of guns, and only one of them seems to give me problems. I think it must be related to one time when I was browning a muzzleloader..which I have done numerous times over the years. After the browning, I used baking soda and water to stop the process and afterward stored the rifle in this safe. Normally I have all my other muzzleloaders in another safe.
I keep the blued firearms in my safes well covered with RIG grease normally, and they are still getting rust in this one safe. I sort of think maybe it is acting as a browning cabinet maybe as a result of the browning that was placed there once. I don't think dessicant or a golden rod would be a solution for me as the garage where this is kept is quite warm already and I have no problems in my other safes in the same area.
The safe is lined with the normal thin carpet type of material and I'm thinking maybe this needs to addressed at this point. I was contemplating using a mixture of baking soda and water to saturate the inside of the safe to see if it could neutralize the browning problem?
Your thoughts on this problem would be greatly appreciated. Anyone else out there ever face something like this?

Mobuck · August 27, 2018, 07:22 AM

You need airflow

rebs · August 27, 2018, 09:22 AM

maybe air flow and a golden rod

Old Stony · August 27, 2018, 10:17 AM

I don't really understand what airflow would do to help the problem. I have three other safes sitting beside this one problem safe and have no problems with them. Through the summer here, sometimes it's probably 100 degrees in the garage and I don't know if raising the temp with a golden rod would help either. I'm thinking of a way to neutralize the browning chemicals maybe that have permeated the area within the safe?

ocharry · August 27, 2018, 11:45 AM

change the carpet out for new

just a thought

ocharry

LineStretcher · August 27, 2018, 11:58 AM

Many safes are lined with sheet rock to get their fire rating. It's not a horrible task to remove it and replace it. I'm afraid that soaking the carpet will just add to the problem.

I just upgraded a couple of my safes by replacing the sheet rock with 1/2" Hardie Cement backer board. You might consider that instead.

RC20 · August 27, 2018, 12:43 PM

On board with the rip the interior out.

You can get desiccant from Grainger in bulk, low cost, might help or stop as well.

Turns from light blue to pink if its been used up.

Clemson · August 27, 2018, 03:41 PM

It is not the temperature that keeps the guns from rusting. A goldenrod (or similar) device simply keeps the temperature inside the safe higher than the ambient temperature outside the safe. That keeps condensate from forming. You can rust the dickens out of a gun at 100 degrees if the humidity is high and you let moisture condense on the guns.

thallub · August 27, 2018, 08:27 PM

Some newer safes are lined with corrosive made in China sheetrock that caused numerous problems when used in homes.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...cts-32402.html

Old Stony · August 28, 2018, 03:41 AM

I actually don't think moisture is my problem with this safe, as much as some chemicals left from the browning process on the one rifle that was stored there. I do not get rough spots of rust, just discoloration in spots. I am going to try some of the baking soda remedies and such, but I think I may have to eventually end up ripping out all the interior and starting over.
I have four safes full of guns in the same location and all are subject to the same conditions. One of them having the problems tells me that adding heat or airflow, etc.. is probably not going to help the situation. I think if I can neutralize the chemical problem in the safe, I think it might be my solution.

Old Stony · August 28, 2018, 03:50 AM

thallub….you might have just highlighted part of my problem. I have noted that rifles in the safe that have ammo in cartridge carriers attached to them show definite problems. The ammo ends up with a frosted looking appearance with any shiny brass taking on a dull appearance. The article you referenced makes note of wiring and such being effected by the Chinese drywall.

RC20 · August 28, 2018, 02:28 PM

When did the safe get bought in sequence with the other ones?

Same mfg or?

Old Stony · August 28, 2018, 07:50 PM

It was the second safe of the four I own. It is a Winchester brand that says "made in Ft. Worth" on it. It is 745 lbs and has a capacity of 45 long guns. It is the only Winchester safe that I own....and I don't see me buying another. I think I'll just start ripping out the sheet rock and build my own interior in the safe. It will be a job, but if it solves my problem I think it will be worth it. I have a golden rod in it now, but I don't think it actually does any good for me. I removed all the guns and have been cleaning them off and on for a couple days now. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have enough time to finish cleaning and coating all the guns....then start tearing the safe apart.

ocharry · August 28, 2018, 10:02 PM

One of my safes is a Winchester brand....I have had it for a few yeas now...its purpose is holding the guns I use all the time...only keep about 6-8 in it at any one time...but I have never had a problem with it

I dont think the brand has anything to do with your problem....I think and its just speculation on my part...but I think something has gotten into the carpet or the fire proofing or both from your rusting chemicals and they are giving off something in the closed up environment inside the box..causing the rust....

Yeah I would gut the box and wash it down good with baking soda and let it air out good...making sure it is dry before replacing the interior..... Maybe close it up after its dry with some kind of metal inside for a few day and see what if anything happens

Just some thoughts

Ocharry

Bill DeShivs · August 28, 2018, 10:16 PM

Guys- baking soda is a SALT!
Salts cause rust.
If you need a base to neutralize an acid (you don't, BTW) use ammonia.

ocharry · August 29, 2018, 12:59 AM

Thx Bill...that is good info...I had no idea baking soda was a salt base

See there..old dogs can learn something new

Scratch the BS...lol...baking soda thinking then

Ocharry

gwpercle · August 29, 2018, 04:45 PM

It is either browning chemicals absorbed by the carpet wall finish.....but it sounds more like Chinese drywall.
That stuff is devistating to metal . Takes about one year to show up in a house and the only fix is remove the drywall , remove all electrical wiring , outlets , light fixtures and HVAC units, A costly neutralizer must be sprayed on the wood framing , the wood absorbs the chemicals and causes more problems later .
Let it dry and then rebuild the house....again.
This hit us hard after Katrina and there is no way to coat or treat the drywall....Remove it ASAP .
Gary

TheGunGeek · August 29, 2018, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thallub

Some newer safes are lined with corrosive made in China sheetrock that caused numerous problems when used in homes.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...cts-32402.html

Ditto, the best safes are either just steel, or steel with a concrete composite, or fire mat (similar to oven insulation) in the center. Drywall may contain chemicals and/or bacteria that will attack the metal.

Old Stony · August 30, 2018, 05:19 PM

I started to tear out the drywall from the safe...starting with the door, which had two layers. This rust was in between the two layers. I contacted Winchester safes about the problem and sent them pic's. They are supposed to get back to me tomorrow. I have had the safe about 3 years with intermittent problems with this rust...and the safe has a 5 yr. warranty. We'll see what happens ??

ocharry · August 30, 2018, 09:36 PM

Wow...did it get wet sometime in its life....like maybe before you got it???

Ocharry

Old Stony · August 31, 2018, 05:30 AM

I don't see any way moisture could have gotten into the door area. The part of the door where the lock is located is covered with sheetrock and the interior of the door is covered with a piece of sheetrock...covered with a fuzzy type of material. The safe is stored in a very dry environment with a golden rod in it, so I'm thinking the rust is something that is being caused by the sheetrock..which is basically enclosing it.

adamBomb · August 31, 2018, 09:52 AM

Buy a humidity gauge from amazon (you can get them for a few dollars.)

Compare the humidity in your safes to see if there is something different about the other one temp/humidity wise. That would be a start to figuring out why this one is having issues. I would start there

Old Stony · August 31, 2018, 11:12 AM

I have four safes sitting side by side with no differences in temp or humidity from their environment. I have come to think the problem is coming from within the problem safe. Just having rust inside a door that is sealed up on both sides with sheetrock and only normally exposed to outside air when the door is opened leads me to believe the problem lies within the safe. Outside humidity cannot get into the safe when it's in the normal condition with the door shut.

ocharry · August 31, 2018, 12:31 PM

i for one will be interested to hear what winchester has to say

did the door show any signs of rust before you took the sheet rock off,,,was the paint pealing?? or bubbling up??

i dont see any signs or have any problems with my winchester safe..ive had it for about 4 years i think,,maybe a little longer...but i may need to give it a good once over,,,,,just for good measure,,,never seen anything rust wise on any of the guns i keep in it

my i ask how long you would keep the safe closed up??....was it opened daily or weekly or monthly???

ocharry

T. O'Heir · August 31, 2018, 01:56 PM

If it's just the one, look at where it sits. There's moisture getting inside from somewhere. Might be a wet carpet. That'd be cheap fix to change. Lots of places throw out old carpets or pieces of old carpets. If you know an office building maintenance guy, you can get some from him.
Dry wall is gypsum and paper. Both turn to soft mush when wet. And they retain moisture. Neither Golden Rods nor 25 watt light bulbs will warm the space through dry wall either.
"...door that is sealed up..." Any wee air space between the steel and dry wall? That'd be enough for condensation to happen if the door is not air tight.

August 27, 2018, 04:27 AM	#1
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	Rusting in safe.. I think I need some advice on one of my safes. I have four safes full of guns, and only one of them seems to give me problems. I think it must be related to one time when I was browning a muzzleloader..which I have done numerous times over the years. After the browning, I used baking soda and water to stop the process and afterward stored the rifle in this safe. Normally I have all my other muzzleloaders in another safe. I keep the blued firearms in my safes well covered with RIG grease normally, and they are still getting rust in this one safe. I sort of think maybe it is acting as a browning cabinet maybe as a result of the browning that was placed there once. I don't think dessicant or a golden rod would be a solution for me as the garage where this is kept is quite warm already and I have no problems in my other safes in the same area. The safe is lined with the normal thin carpet type of material and I'm thinking maybe this needs to addressed at this point. I was contemplating using a mixture of baking soda and water to saturate the inside of the safe to see if it could neutralize the browning problem? Your thoughts on this problem would be greatly appreciated. Anyone else out there ever face something like this?

August 27, 2018, 11:45 AM	#5
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 764	change the carpet out for new just a thought ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

August 27, 2018, 12:43 PM	#7
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,330	On board with the rip the interior out. You can get desiccant from Grainger in bulk, low cost, might help or stop as well. Turns from light blue to pink if its been used up. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

August 27, 2018, 03:41 PM	#8
Clemson Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2001 Location: Greenwood, SC Posts: 880	It is not the temperature that keeps the guns from rusting. A goldenrod (or similar) device simply keeps the temperature inside the safe higher than the ambient temperature outside the safe. That keeps condensate from forming. You can rust the dickens out of a gun at 100 degrees if the humidity is high and you let moisture condense on the guns. __________________ NRA Endowment Member, NRA Certified Instructor CWP Holder US Army veteran Gunsmith www.boltandbarrel.com

August 28, 2018, 02:28 PM	#12
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,330	When did the safe get bought in sequence with the other ones? Same mfg or? __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

August 27, 2018, 07:22 AM	#2
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	You need airflow

August 27, 2018, 09:22 AM	#3
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	maybe air flow and a golden rod

August 27, 2018, 10:17 AM	#4
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	I don't really understand what airflow would do to help the problem. I have three other safes sitting beside this one problem safe and have no problems with them. Through the summer here, sometimes it's probably 100 degrees in the garage and I don't know if raising the temp with a golden rod would help either. I'm thinking of a way to neutralize the browning chemicals maybe that have permeated the area within the safe?

August 27, 2018, 11:58 AM	#6
LineStretcher Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2018 Posts: 619	Many safes are lined with sheet rock to get their fire rating. It's not a horrible task to remove it and replace it. I'm afraid that soaking the carpet will just add to the problem. I just upgraded a couple of my safes by replacing the sheet rock with 1/2" Hardie Cement backer board. You might consider that instead.

August 27, 2018, 08:27 PM	#9
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,122	Some newer safes are lined with corrosive made in China sheetrock that caused numerous problems when used in homes. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...cts-32402.html

August 28, 2018, 03:41 AM	#10
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	I actually don't think moisture is my problem with this safe, as much as some chemicals left from the browning process on the one rifle that was stored there. I do not get rough spots of rust, just discoloration in spots. I am going to try some of the baking soda remedies and such, but I think I may have to eventually end up ripping out all the interior and starting over. I have four safes full of guns in the same location and all are subject to the same conditions. One of them having the problems tells me that adding heat or airflow, etc.. is probably not going to help the situation. I think if I can neutralize the chemical problem in the safe, I think it might be my solution.

August 28, 2018, 03:50 AM	#11
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	thallub….you might have just highlighted part of my problem. I have noted that rifles in the safe that have ammo in cartridge carriers attached to them show definite problems. The ammo ends up with a frosted looking appearance with any shiny brass taking on a dull appearance. The article you referenced makes note of wiring and such being effected by the Chinese drywall.

August 28, 2018, 07:50 PM	#13
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	It was the second safe of the four I own. It is a Winchester brand that says "made in Ft. Worth" on it. It is 745 lbs and has a capacity of 45 long guns. It is the only Winchester safe that I own....and I don't see me buying another. I think I'll just start ripping out the sheet rock and build my own interior in the safe. It will be a job, but if it solves my problem I think it will be worth it. I have a golden rod in it now, but I don't think it actually does any good for me. I removed all the guns and have been cleaning them off and on for a couple days now. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have enough time to finish cleaning and coating all the guns....then start tearing the safe apart.

August 28, 2018, 10:02 PM	#14
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 764	One of my safes is a Winchester brand....I have had it for a few yeas now...its purpose is holding the guns I use all the time...only keep about 6-8 in it at any one time...but I have never had a problem with it I dont think the brand has anything to do with your problem....I think and its just speculation on my part...but I think something has gotten into the carpet or the fire proofing or both from your rusting chemicals and they are giving off something in the closed up environment inside the box..causing the rust.... Yeah I would gut the box and wash it down good with baking soda and let it air out good...making sure it is dry before replacing the interior..... Maybe close it up after its dry with some kind of metal inside for a few day and see what if anything happens Just some thoughts Ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

August 28, 2018, 10:16 PM	#15
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 11,101	Guys- baking soda is a SALT! Salts cause rust. If you need a base to neutralize an acid (you don't, BTW) use ammonia. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

August 29, 2018, 12:59 AM	#16
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 764	Thx Bill...that is good info...I had no idea baking soda was a salt base See there..old dogs can learn something new Scratch the BS...lol...baking soda thinking then Ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

August 29, 2018, 04:45 PM	#17
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,914	It is either browning chemicals absorbed by the carpet wall finish.....but it sounds more like Chinese drywall. That stuff is devistating to metal . Takes about one year to show up in a house and the only fix is remove the drywall , remove all electrical wiring , outlets , light fixtures and HVAC units, A costly neutralizer must be sprayed on the wood framing , the wood absorbs the chemicals and causes more problems later . Let it dry and then rebuild the house....again. This hit us hard after Katrina and there is no way to coat or treat the drywall....Remove it ASAP . Gary

August 30, 2018, 05:19 PM	#19
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	I started to tear out the drywall from the safe...starting with the door, which had two layers. This rust was in between the two layers. I contacted Winchester safes about the problem and sent them pic's. They are supposed to get back to me tomorrow. I have had the safe about 3 years with intermittent problems with this rust...and the safe has a 5 yr. warranty. We'll see what happens ??

August 30, 2018, 09:36 PM	#20
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 764	Wow...did it get wet sometime in its life....like maybe before you got it??? Ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

August 31, 2018, 05:30 AM	#21
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	I don't see any way moisture could have gotten into the door area. The part of the door where the lock is located is covered with sheetrock and the interior of the door is covered with a piece of sheetrock...covered with a fuzzy type of material. The safe is stored in a very dry environment with a golden rod in it, so I'm thinking the rust is something that is being caused by the sheetrock..which is basically enclosing it.

August 31, 2018, 09:52 AM	#22
adamBomb Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2015 Location: coastal NC Posts: 646	Buy a humidity gauge from amazon (you can get them for a few dollars.) Compare the humidity in your safes to see if there is something different about the other one temp/humidity wise. That would be a start to figuring out why this one is having issues. I would start there

August 31, 2018, 11:12 AM	#23
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	I have four safes sitting side by side with no differences in temp or humidity from their environment. I have come to think the problem is coming from within the problem safe. Just having rust inside a door that is sealed up on both sides with sheetrock and only normally exposed to outside air when the door is opened leads me to believe the problem lies within the safe. Outside humidity cannot get into the safe when it's in the normal condition with the door shut.

August 31, 2018, 12:31 PM	#24
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 764	i for one will be interested to hear what winchester has to say did the door show any signs of rust before you took the sheet rock off,,,was the paint pealing?? or bubbling up?? i dont see any signs or have any problems with my winchester safe..ive had it for about 4 years i think,,maybe a little longer...but i may need to give it a good once over,,,,,just for good measure,,,never seen anything rust wise on any of the guns i keep in it my i ask how long you would keep the safe closed up??....was it opened daily or weekly or monthly??? ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

August 31, 2018, 01:56 PM	#25
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	If it's just the one, look at where it sits. There's moisture getting inside from somewhere. Might be a wet carpet. That'd be cheap fix to change. Lots of places throw out old carpets or pieces of old carpets. If you know an office building maintenance guy, you can get some from him. Dry wall is gypsum and paper. Both turn to soft mush when wet. And they retain moisture. Neither Golden Rods nor 25 watt light bulbs will warm the space through dry wall either. "...door that is sealed up..." Any wee air space between the steel and dry wall? That'd be enough for condensation to happen if the door is not air tight.