38.spl And .357 Mag Issues.

[robhic]

I loaded some .38 and .357 rounds today. I wanted to try out my Lee Factory Crimp Die some more. I loaded 25 of each using 124gr Round Nose Bayou Bullets coated bullets. The issue seems to be rounds look good, fit in the cylinder easily, slip in & out fine but look short while OAL is long.

I backed out my RCBS seater die so as not to initiate the roll-crimp of the die, itself. This worked well but then going to the LFCD to finish, I ended up with rounds that looked a bit short but were over the SAMMI max length. The .38 was around 1.600+" and the .357 was at 1.700+". They look OK, if a bit short, but they fit good and don't protrude from the cylinder at this longer length. I also loaded them all at the low end of the book data so they won't be very hot loads, regardless....

Question 1) is - should these rounds be OK at the longer OAL (short worries me but long is usually OK) and 2) - how should I setup the Lee Die (or my RCBS die) to try to get these suckers back into "normal" length? I left the seater die short to make sure it didn't start a crimp. Screwing it in further would just complicate the crimping process. Extending the bullet outside of the case mouth further would seemingly do same.

Any options here? Any advice or tips would be appreciated!

[T. O'Heir]

"...backed out my RCBS seater die..." That's why the lengths are wrong. Set up the die so the shell holder just kisses the bottom of the die and adjust lengths with the seating plug.
Don't use 2 different crimp dies. Mind you, a crimp is unnecessary for a cast/coated bullet anyway.
"...to get these suckers back..." You can't when they're crimped. You need to start over.
And work on one cartridge at a time. .38's and .357's only look alike.

[robhic]

"...backed out my RCBS seater die..." That's why the lengths are wrong. Set up the die so the shell holder just kisses the bottom of the die and adjust lengths with the seating plug.
Don't use 2 different crimp dies. Mind you, a crimp is unnecessary for a cast/coated bullet anyway.
"...to get these suckers back..." You can't when they're crimped. You need to start over.
And work on one cartridge at a time. .38's and .357's only look alike.

I HAD to back out the RCBS seater die or it would start a roll-crimp (it's a roll-crimp die) which I didn't want. I set it to just remove the flare (kissing the shellholder to start...) but not crimp. Then I used the Lee die, setup as per instructions.

I'm not planning to redo these but shoot them as-is. I'm looking toward future loads and the seater die has to be backed out as explained above. Lee says NOT to crimp any with the seat die but to do it all with the Factory Crimp die.

I would like to figure how to remove the flare without a hint of crimp. Then go to the Lee die to finish. And I'd like to get some ideas how to do this while shortening the cartridge OAL at the same time...

[robhic]

DELETE

[Sevens]

A few things occur to me -- not an expert, but here is how I would approach what you laid out. First, I have heard only great things about Bayou Bullets and of course there is a guy named Jerry-something that likes them a lot and if HE likes 'em, my instinct is to trust his judgement heh, but with that out of the way, I default to "wow, you picked a goofy, oddball bullet for use in .38/.357" That basically looks for all the world like a 9mm slug, I'm guessing they gave it a slightly larger diameter to make it appropriate for .38/.357. I don't care for this idea and I would suggest it is the reason for your odd COAL result.

So my (seemingly unhelpful) knee-jerk suggestion is that a typical 125gr weight slug for .38/.357 won't give you goofy COAL results.

However, if we're going forth with this bullet, I'd be loading them on the SHORT side, with that top-most driving band just under the case mouth with a slight-to-medium roll crimp. Opinions seem to vary these days but some things don't change -- revolver ammo uses and benefits from a roll crimp, in spite of nonsensical and cryptic advice such as we see in post #2.

Seating the bullet deeper in a large capacity revolver round (both .38 and .357) will promote consistency and is not a pressure concern whatsoever like it is in stubby, low volume, tight combustion space and high pressure rounds such as 9mm/.40 S&W.

Seating deeper will also give you more reign to ultimately use these across several revolvers regardless of whether you think or plan now to simply load for just one revolver.

[Don P]

OK, first question, does the bullet have a crimp groove? If yes, that is where you should be roll crimping. If there is NO crimp groove a firm taper crimp is in order. OAL is of no issue with the 38 spl as I do not believe anyone makes a bullet long enough so it would stick out of a 357 mag cylinder if you loaded it on the long side of OAL.
After re-reading you post it seems you are not setting your dies correctly. The Lee Factory Crimp Die (LFCD) for 38/357 spl is going to be a roll crimp die UNLESS you purchase the 38/357 taper crimp die.

[Bayou]

I also use a Lee FCD for 38/357 (and others). I also raise the seater up so the case mouths do not touch the crimp ring in the seater die. Of course, when doing this, the seater plug has to be lowered some more so as to achieve the proper COL and bullet depth. The technique works very well....

[reddog81]

If they fit into the cylinder and function OK, then they are not too long.

If a bullet has a crimp groove use it and don't worry about OAL. If a bullet doesn't have a crimp groove it makes seating and determining OAL a little harder. I just seat the bullet where the crimp groove should be and remove the belling on the case without applying any "crimp" this can be done with any traditional die.

No need for a LEE FCD. You are over thinking the process. Adding extra steps only adds additional factors that will most likely not have any positive effect on the rounds you are making and make it much more likely to cause some unintentional problem.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by robhic

I HAD to back out the RCBS seater die or it would start a roll-crimp (it's a roll-crimp die) which I didn't want. I set it to just remove the flare (kissing the shellholder to start...) but not crimp. Then I used the Lee die, setup as per instructions.

That die has separate adjustments for both seating and crimp. so you don't have to back off the seating, only the crimp. But, by backing off the crimp, you have to readjust the seating stem.

As for "looking short" but "Measure long" is probably just the profile/ogive of the bullet. If the finished ammo fits into the cylinder, you should not have a problem. If you reloaded the cartridge with any recipe other than one using those specific bullets, your OAL is probably not going to be the same anyway. That's one reason we start low and work our way up, to be able to safely make any adjustments when needed.

[44 AMP]

Mind you, a crimp is unnecessary for a cast/coated bullet anyway.

This is NOT true 100% of the time. Many variables are involved.

Lee says NOT to crimp any with the seat die but to do it all with the Factory Crimp die.

Of course Lee says this, they want to sell their Factory Crimp Die.

Millions upon millions of rounds have been loaded for generations using the crimp built into regular seating dies. Done right, it is simple and easy. Done wrong, its a problem.

I don't know the exact bullets you are using, but if they have a crimp groove, use it. If they don't, consider getting bullets that do, if you are loading for a revolver, or tube magazine lever gun.

SAAMI specs are industry standards, meant to ensure the ammo will fit in ALL guns. If it fits in your gun, then the length spec is essentially irrelevant.

I've been loading .38/.357 for over half a century now, and I don't use, or have a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Trim your brass to a uniform length, use a bullet made for revolvers (with a crimp groove) and PROPERLY adjust your seater die, and you won't have a problem. Seat and crimp in one step, works just fine for me, and has for decades.

[mikld]

Do the bullets have a crimp groove? If so, ferget the "listed OAL" and seat to the crimp groove. Another suggestion for a newer reloader; toss the FCD and separate the seating and crimping. Either get another roll crimp die or re-adjust the seater crimper you have seated the bullets (seat all bullets, re-adjust die and roll crimp all cases). For revolvers as long as OAL is consistent, the rounds just have to fit the cylinder. After a lot more experience is gained, it will be fun playing with OAL for your revolver...

As for 44AMP's post, Amen!

[Jim Watson]

I would seat that Bayou bullet to where I could roll crimp over the shoulder. It has no crimp groove, just an empty lube groove not used with their coating.

Only bullet I ever stuck (other than a water damaged factory load) was a 125 seated too long with too much air space over the powder.

[robhic]

I default to "wow, you picked a goofy, oddball bullet for use in .38/.357" That basically looks for all the world like a 9mm slug, I'm guessing they gave it a slightly larger diameter to make it appropriate for .38/.357. I don't care for this idea and I would suggest it is the reason for your odd COAL result.

So my (seemingly unhelpful) knee-jerk suggestion is that a typical 125gr weight slug for .38/.357 won't give you goofy COAL results.

However, if we're going forth with this bullet, I'd be loading them on the SHORT side, with that top-most driving band just under the case mouth with a slight-to-medium roll crimp. Opinions seem to vary these days but some things don't change -- revolver ammo uses and benefits from a roll crimp, in spite of nonsensical and cryptic advice such as we see in post #2.

The Bayou Bullets I purchased are labeled on the bag .38 spl so I figured those would be OK to use. They also had a crimp-groove around them plus I've loaded them before, just not using the Lee Factory Crimp die.

The OAL/visuals connundrum is that (and this isn't the first time...) the bullet only protrudes a small amount (unlike say a 9mm RN) but it is OAL longer than the SAMMI max. AND it was loaded with the case mouth a tiny bit above that groove. That's per the Lee instructions.

I hear what you're saying and appreciate the information. I had some cast 147gr flat point bullets I wish I'd have saved a few of to use. I think they would have turned out with less odd results. I'm gonna go with that next .38 or .357 loads. I think they should be more 38/357-ish! Thanks for your input. It doesn't make me feel like these rounds are so bad.

[robhic]

OK, first question, does the bullet have a crimp groove? If yes, that is where you should be roll crimping. If there is NO crimp groove a firm taper crimp is in order. OAL is of no issue with the 38 spl as I do not believe anyone makes a bullet long enough so it would stick out of a 357 mag cylinder if you loaded it on the long side of OAL.
After re-reading you post it seems you are not setting your dies correctly. The Lee Factory Crimp Die (LFCD) for 38/357 spl is going to be a roll crimp die UNLESS you purchase the 38/357 taper crimp die.

Bullets had a crimp groove but I went right above it trying to make the bullet shorter per SAMMI max spec. Next time I think I WILL crimp (roll) into the groove as long as they fit the cylinder and don't protrude. Thanks for your input. I'm feeling better about my 38 reloads.

[robhic]

I also use a Lee FCD for 38/357 (and others). I also raise the seater up so the case mouths do not touch the crimp ring in the seater die. Of course, when doing this, the seater plug has to be lowered some more so as to achieve the proper COL and bullet depth. The technique works very well....

'Zactly what I did and for the same reasons! Great minds....

[robhic]

Of course Lee says this, they want to sell their Factory Crimp Die.

Millions upon millions of rounds have been loaded for generations using the crimp built into regular seating dies. Done right, it is simple and easy. Done wrong, its a problem.

I don't know the exact bullets you are using, but if they have a crimp groove, use it. If they don't, consider getting bullets that do, if you are loading for a revolver, or tube magazine lever gun.

SAAMI specs are industry standards, meant to ensure the ammo will fit in ALL guns. If it fits in your gun, then the length spec is essentially irrelevant.

I've been loading .38/.357 for over half a century now, and I don't use, or have a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Trim your brass to a uniform length, use a bullet made for revolvers (with a crimp groove) and PROPERLY adjust your seater die, and you won't have a problem. Seat and crimp in one step, works just fine for me, and has for decades.

Your first line made me laugh! I'm sure that has a lot to do with it and I have been seating/crimping with the RCBS seat/crimp die before. I have seen good reviews from folks using a Lee die and it was inexpensive so I figured "what the heck!"

I plan to roll crimp all my revolver loads, 38 AND 357. Just 'cause and I like to use bullets with a groove (or 2) for the crimp. The length issue is making me feel a bit better. I just couldn't get those bullets (marked for 38) to under the SAMMI spec. And being a bit anal about it all I wanted to get my handloads within spec. Thanks for your input! I appreciate it and want to play with my Lee die (I already screwed up all the settings on the RCBS seat/crimp) so I might as well give it a good workout. Especially with all this info I'm getting.

[robhic]

Do the bullets have a crimp groove? If so, ferget the "listed OAL" and seat to the crimp groove. Another suggestion for a newer reloader; toss the FCD and separate the seating and crimping

Yes they have 1 crimp groove. I want to play with the Lee die (the results DO look pretty good...) so I'm gonna play with it a bit. Another vote for not worrying about the SAMMI spec This is good to know. Thanks!

[robhic]

I would seat that Bayou bullet to where I could roll crimp over the shoulder. It has no crimp groove, just an empty lube groove not used with their coating.

Over the shoulder is where I ended up crimping the rounds. No crimp groove is very interesting. I figured a groove in a bullet labeled .38spl could only BE for a crimp. Thanks for that! I never knew that and it gives me something else to add to my revolver-bullet base. Thanks again!!!

[Sevens]

Before replying to this thread yesterday I jumped over to Bayou's website so I could actually see what we are discussing. Just for clarity (not to argue), here is what I'm trying to say in more clear terms.

9mm and .45 bullets typically have a recognizable shape/profile that promotes smooth feeding that a typical pistol so chambered is expecting. We usually call these "ball" (hardball, softball) and no, they don't look like a ball, they look kind of bulbous (.45) and kind of pointy (9mm)

If the firearm in question will accept it and in the case of a semiautomatic, feed it, it can be used if you can make it work.

My point-- never was I saying "hey, that ain't no .38 slug!"
What I do mean is... Bayou seems to have used a very obvious mold typical for an outrageously popular 9mm slug and they have sized it larger and are marketing it for sale as a .38 bullet. For sure, it can be made to work.

That bullet is a cast bullet, the mold for which was wholly designed to be a typical lubed bullet. Bayou, however, doesn't lube bullets and they don't offer lubed bullets. Bayou uses newer "technology" and they powder coat the bullet. With the powder coating... lube is not needed.

However, the mold design predates the idea of powder coating and the recesses that you see are lube grooves. That's where the waxy blue or red (or other color) lube would be on a typical commercial cast bullet. It is not a cannelure, it is not a crimp groove, it is just there because of the design of the mold. Frankly, it's far too large to be a proper crimp groove anyway.

[44 AMP]

I backed out my RCBS seater die so as not to initiate the roll-crimp of the die, itself. This worked well but then going to the LFCD to finish, I ended up with rounds that looked a bit short but were over the SAMMI max length.

Just curious, when you backed out your RCBS seater die body, did you then lower the seating stem to compensate for the change??

(pardon the question, but I didn't see where you said you did)

Raising the die body (so it won't crimp) and not compensating with the seating stem WILL give you overlength rounds. Is it possible this was what happened??

Crimping bullets for revolvers is a complex subject, not so much mechanically, but because there are so many different possible combinations, and some will work all the time, and others will work well when the stars line up, and not so well, when they don't.

There are some combinations of caliber, load, AND gun where no crimp will work just fine. Other combinations require a good crimp or you get issues.

the revolver is a most forgiving creature, when it comes to what it will eat. It doesn't care about velocity (provided there is enough for the bullet to reliably exit the barrel), it doesn't care much about the length of the round, provided they don't stick out past the front of the cylinder.

However, revolvers do act like kinetic bullet pullers. Using recoil against bullet inertia, revolvers "pull" the case away from the bullet. Just like the "hammer" type pullers we use in handloading, though the force is in the opposite direction, the result is the same. We generally call it "jumping the crimp".

Meaning, the bullet has moved forward in the case. (Don't confuse this with "bullet jump" which is a completely different term, and refers to how far the bullet has to travel to engage the rifling)

Another thing about revolvers is that you CAN use any bullet, even ones designed for semi autos. It may take some additional or special techniques loading them, but they can be used.

[robhic]

Just curious, when you backed out your RCBS seater die body, did you then lower the seating stem to compensate for the change??

(pardon the question, but I didn't see where you said you did)

Yes, I compensated for the die move by lowering the seat plug. I think I mentioned it in another response but it could have been missed. I did as the Lee die instructs: Seat the bullet as per normal and do NOT start a crimp if the die is a seat/crimp die (which my RCBS is...).

I set it to just touch the case mouth to remove the flare and locked it. I then put the Lee die in and set it as per instructions. It crimps ONLY so length is done and set in the seater die, which is 'zactly how I did it. I've read here about bullets (especially magnum and such) getting jolted forward enough to jam the cylinder. I plan to crimp ALL revolver bullets just to be sure....

The OAL was above SAMMI max but more than a few here straightened me out on that concern. I made some today using a 135gr RN Bayou bullet. I got it to the length of the charge hole and used the LEE die.

Came out pretty nice, if I do say so myself! Longer than SAMMI but fits the cylinder. Thanks to all who got me feeling better about exceeding SAMMI slightly.

[robhic]

My point-- never was I saying "hey, that ain't no .38 slug!"
What I do mean is... Bayou seems to have used a very obvious mold typical for an outrageously popular 9mm slug and they have sized it larger and are marketing it for sale as a .38 bullet. For sure, it can be made to work.

That bullet is a cast bullet, the mold for which was wholly designed to be a typical lubed bullet. Bayou, however, doesn't lube bullets and they don't offer lubed bullets. Bayou uses newer "technology" and they powder coat the bullet. With the powder coating... lube is not needed.

Others made that point, too. I have been going on the fact that a groove in the bullet is the place to make a crimp. I appreciate your time hitting that issue again! Now I have a bit more info to file away for the future. I had never considered that the groove was an empty lube-groove. Good to know this and thanks.

Bayou is about 15 miles up the highway from me so I go pick mine up from them (saves the $7.00 shipping). Next trip I'm gonna talk to Dennis (I believe is the owner). I did know they needed no lube due to the coating but never once thought about why the bullet had a groove - which I took to be a cannelure. Now I know and thanks!

[jetav8r]

I also use a lot of Bayou Bullets and like them all. For 38 SPL and 357Mag I like their 158 gr SWC. This bullet has both a lube groove and a crimp groove. The lube groove channel walls are both at 90° to the groove and the crimp groove has one wall at 90° and one about 45°. When you get to their shop you will be able to see the difference. I have used the FCD on this bullet with no problems. It produced a very nice roll crimp into the crimp groove and they performed very well out of my GP100.