Inconsistent 9mm handloads. Enormous groups. Please help.

Dundgren · May 23, 2017, 02:14 PM

Hi! This is my first post here as I have just gotten started with reloading. Ive made around 150 cartridges so far.

At first I made some using this reloading data: http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloadi...-mm-luger.html 4.7 grains of N320, 100 Grain bullet, COL 27.5mm.

But even though its the same type of bullet (HP HS 100gr) its not exactly the same brand. Also I measured using a caliper without a bullet comparator. These handloads didnt even hit the target at 25 yards.

Then I made another 5 but using the plunk-test to determine the cartridge-length and used 5.1 grains of N320. Also made 5 with the same length and 4.7 grains. These gave the best groups I have ever seen.

Today I made 50 using the same technique. I used the plunk-test but this time I made the just a bit shorter to accommodate for varying bullet-length. These sucked ass. Then I reset my tool using the plunk-test and made 10 more without adjusting a single thing!! I figured this would make them consistent. But this time the first 5 I shot had 2 completely break away from the group and the second 5 had 1 break away greatly.

Why is the accuracy so inconsistent? I know its not me because my groups would never ever become that large shooting manufactured ammo.

Also I would like to point out that the ones that made great groups were crimped after bullet-seating and the ones I reloaded most recently were crimped at the same time as I seated the bullet.

My equipment:

Vihtavouri N320 powder. 5.1 grains.
Murom Small Pistol Primers
H&N 100 grains Hollow Point High Speed.
RCBS Dies
Varying cases (some S&B, some CBC and some others)

jag2 · May 23, 2017, 02:49 PM

My only thought is I've never seen anyone using lighter than 115 gun bullets and many prefer 124. Why did you choose those? What was the factory ammo? Could be wrong but I've never seen 9mm with 100 gen bullets.

RC20 · May 23, 2017, 02:49 PM

You seem to have two problems.

First is crimping pistol and 9mm specifically.

9mm headspaces (or is supposed to) on the front of the case.

My take (and its just mine) is never seat and crimp in the same operation.

Always keep it separate. More so in pistol but I never crimp either one while seating (and yes I used to 40 years ago)

What you want, if you are going to crimp, is a mild (by feel) taper crimp not a roll crimp. As little crimp as you can get an a light press (RCBS Junior) is better than a RCBS Rockchucker.

The other part is you are operating in a very narrow range, even for 9mm.

Many low loads won't cycle the action, but you don't have much latitude.

HS-6 is a good 9mm powder, others as well.

Also keep in mind, seating too deep with 9mm increases an already dicey pressure situation, 9mm and below are tweezer loads and very tiny factors have big impact.

Dundgren · May 23, 2017, 03:25 PM

I have no Idea how to reply directly...

I do not think there is an issue with my bullets being 100gr considering I made 10 perfectly accurate handloads using them.

I wont crimp and seat at the same time anymore. This MAY be my culprit but I dont understand why it would be...

Don P · May 23, 2017, 04:16 PM

If my math is correct the OAL is in US measurement 1.0825. I think that's a bit short for 9 mm. I'm loading mine at 1.1220 or 28.50 mm. Just my .02 worth. Try loading the for the max length and still pass the plunk test.

Dundgren · May 23, 2017, 04:55 PM

Thanks, Don. Ill try loading your length and hopefully pass the plunk test.

SHR970 · May 23, 2017, 05:43 PM

How are you dispensing your powder? If you are weighing each charge we can rule this out. If you are using an automatic powder dispenser you may have some powder dropping light on one drop and heavy on the next. With your load having such a narrow range, a +/- .2 Grain change would explain a lot.

Also, in mixed brass, some brands have thinner necks than others. If your crimp is good for a thick neck, it may be weak on a thinner neck and you might be getting bullet set back when the round chambers. That too will cause fliers.

Dundgren · May 23, 2017, 06:05 PM

Yes, I have a dispenser. I loaded some with 4.8 grains now so I wont go over the limit if it happens to be +. I never even considered the bullet set-back. Great info!

I also started sorting my brass. Thanks.

snakeye · May 23, 2017, 10:07 PM

Did you ever do a ladder load, starting low and working your way up to max load. Doing this will help with accuracy issues

Dundgren · May 24, 2017, 06:22 AM

No, I didn't. I tried 4.7 grains then 5.1 grains. Found out today that my bullets arent actually jacketed, just plated. So I cant use the loading table from VV.

HiBC · May 24, 2017, 07:15 AM

One of the great benefits of handloading ...we can load what works in our particular firearm.
We can find the "sweet spot"
It might be your handgun is telling you something.You CAN use your range time and reloading time pursuing a combination that does not work for you...
If that is what you choose.

Generally there is a range of bullet weights that work well for a cartridge.

You might look to what comes as factory loads. For 9mm,that generally is 115 gr to 147 gr. Expect less satisfactory results when you decide to drive in the ditch beside the road.Between the ditches works better.

Be very careful you don't shave that copper ahead of your case mouths. It messes with your headspace/lockup.

Note lighter bullets tend to have shorter cylindrical bearing surfaces.They are harder to load square and straight in the case.Its also harder to get them started in the rifling square and straight. Bullets that go down the barrel sort of tipped over shoot real big groups.

Your soft swaged plated bullets will perform like cast bullets in many ways.One really important factor is bullet fit. You start by slugging your bore to know your groove diameter. Undersize bullets shoot poorly. Groove dia plus .001 is a ballpark good fit.Bullets must all be the same dia,too.

And if your barrel is polygonal vs grooved ... just get jacketed bullets.

Welcome!! I hope that helps.

You said factory loads shoot well for you. OK. Try buying and loading some 124 gr jacketed bullets.If you choose a JHP,I might not start with a real big hollow point for feed reasons.Targets and cans don't mind if you shoot hardball.See how they shoot for you.

You may discover your loading technique is not so bad,you just chose a bullet that does not work for you.

g.willikers · May 24, 2017, 08:05 AM

Maybe the gun just needs bigger diameter bullets.
Not all 9mms do well with .355.
I had one that was lousy with that size, better with .356 and great with .357.

Tsquared · May 24, 2017, 09:49 AM

Back in the late 70's when I was new to reloading I had a loading master tell me not to bother with anything but 125gr in 9 mm as that was the weight designed for the 9mm originally.

There is a lot of good info in the other posts. The things I would do to tighten it up would be:
1) slug your barrel so you will know what size bullet to reload
2) sort your brass - use the same headstamp and preferably once-shot or virgin brass to work up a load
3) sort your bullets - I have seen a 2.5 gr deviation on a package of "match" quality bullets
4) crimp just enough to straiten out the flair. Over crimping will cause accuracy problems among other issues
5) load a heavier bullet - 124gr is a lot more forgiving

I have had more problems developing loads on lighter bullets.

T. O'Heir · May 24, 2017, 01:19 PM

"...do not think there is an issue with my bullets being 100gr..." Mostly about those being for .380 ACP and 9mm pistols disliking the wee fellows. Tried some cast 86 grain bullets one time(couldn't find anything heavier on short notice) with sad results. Pistol functioned with 'em, but not accurately.
Anyway, you need to work up the load, not just pick a couple and hope. 4.7 is the start load. 5.1 is the max load. You need to load 5 of the 4.7 and go up by .1 of a grain to the 5.1. Plated bullets use cast bullet data too.
"...the plunk-test to determine the cartridge-length..." That's not what plunking is for or does. Plunking is about the loaded round fitting the chamber. Use 1.050" as the OAL for a 100 grainer.

RC20 · May 24, 2017, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Did you ever do a ladder load, starting low and working your way up to max load. Doing this will help with accuracy issues

First the powder range is so narrow that you have two loads (min and Max)

Secondly, ladder loads are done at 200 yard or even 300 yards to show results and that is for a rifle.

FrankenMauser · May 24, 2017, 02:30 PM

I agree that bullet diameter could be a factor here.
None of my 9mms or .380s have ever had .355" or .356" barrels. Everything is, or has been .357" or larger.
Generally, .355/.356 bullets don't/didn't shoot as well as the larger diameters.

And, sometimes, certain pistols just don't like certain bullets.
My preferred load shoots well, or reasonably well, in a variety of Hi-Powers (and copies), Rugers, CZs, and Berettas. But one particular Sig and another Beretta absolutely choked on the load. They were shooting 6" to 8" groups at just 7 yards, and rarely hit a 25 yard target (14"x18").
And that bullet almost never shoots worth a crap in Glocks.

Quote:

If my math is correct the OAL is in US measurement 1.0825. I think that's a bit short for 9 mm. I'm loading mine at 1.1220 or 28.50 mm. Just my .02 worth. Try loading the for the max length and still pass the plunk test.

It depends on the load and the bullet style and weight.
100 gr bullets are fairly short, and likely to end up with a shorter COAL.
Even so, the best COAL I found for my preferred 122 gr Conical FP (wider than a TC) is a "short" 1.090". With ogive variations and neck tension variation, seating depth varies from about 1.086" to 1.094". I couldn't really go longer, even if I wanted to, because the bullets would be into the lands in certain chambers.

45_auto · May 24, 2017, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rc20

Secondly, ladder loads are done at 200 yard or even 300 yards to show results and that is for a rifle.

So all that ladder testing I did with .44 Mag and .357 Mag pistols at 100 yards wasn't really ladder testing!

And all that ladder testing at 100 yards with the M700 for the club 100 yard benchrest match wasn't ladder testing!

Oh the horror, can you tell me what I was actually doing since it wasn't ladder testing? Would you prefer that we call it "Incremental Load Development Method" instead? Next thing you know, you'll be telling me something sacrilegious, like that my Ar15 doesn't use clips!

ShootistPRS · May 24, 2017, 03:20 PM

Most pistol shooters, in my years of experience, cant shoot a group small enough to do a ladder or OCW test and get results that mean anything.

My advice to the new reloader is to put the target close enough that you can shoot groups. When the groups shrink to one inch then move the target out a bit further.
A consistent grip and good sight alignment will go a long ways in shrinking your groups. Dry fire practice is the best way to get a consistent grip.

stagpanther · May 24, 2017, 03:33 PM

Quote:

So all that ladder testing I did with .44 Mag and .357 Mag pistols at 100 yards wasn't really ladder testing!

And all that ladder testing at 100 yards with the M700 for the club 100 yard benchrest match wasn't ladder testing!

Oh the horror, can you tell me what I was actually doing since it wasn't ladder testing? Would you prefer that we call it "Incremental Load Development Method" instead? Next thing you know, you'll be telling me something sacrilegious, like that my Ar15 doesn't use clips!

Just load anything you find published--if the gun blows up you know you've found the maximum load for your gun.

Don Fischer · May 24, 2017, 03:35 PM

I tried ladder testing once, seemed like a waste of time to me. Really had no idea what I was actually looking for and if I picked the middle shot and loaded up some like that, it wasn't necessarily gonna give me a group I could live with! How if would work on a hand gun, I have no idea. Problem for me is I don't know even one person that could do a ladder test even at 25 yds and get anything good enough to use. Handgun's just aren't all that accurate! I have two 9mm's for carry guns. I've never shot either at more than 10 yds and I've never fired any handgun at target's hoping to find I'm not as poor a shot with a handgun as I think! I'm old now and the eye's really suck sometimes! To remedy that, I taught myself to point and shoot defensive handguns and at 10 yds if the target is the size of a watermelon, it's going down. Could be that the bullet's are to light, not a clue but if I were you. I'd try some heavier bullet's and see what happens.

That you've just started handloading, is handgun's a new area also? I can handle rifle's fine but I leave a lot to be desired with handguns. My DA revolver's I'll plink with out to about 50 yds and actually try to aim. But aiming is a chore and even though, I don't do teat bad, a watermelon at 50yds is in trouble! Maybe your having shooter error? I'm sure there are more trick's to shooting hand guns well that I don't know. The only time I ever would get real serious about handguns is within about 10 yds a a bad guy with an attitude! His chest is bugger than a watermelon!

Paladin7 · May 26, 2017, 01:59 PM

Before you go any further, I'd strongly suggest you do a Ladder Test starting with the lowest powder charge and ending with the highest powder charge. You will never attain accuracy by just picking a random powder weight and testing. Also, what you are doing is dangerous. The Ladder Test is explained in just about every Loading Manual and you should follow this advice to the letter.

When you work up charges, it is best to load 5 to 7 rounds at the first charge weight, then do the same for the next step up (i.e. .1 or .2), and so on until you reach the highest charge.

Then, get a good rest for your pistol and shoot slow fire groups at each charge weight, giving time between each group for the barrel to cool.

Then examine your targets and you will find that one or two groups appear to be the tightest. Do not worry about where they land on the target, your only concern at this stage is how tight they group.

Once you have found the tightest grouping charge, you can load a few more, adjust your sights until the POI = POA and you should be good to go.

This has worked for me and many others for years.

Just a few cautionary notes that are worth mentioning...

1. Learn how to recognize over pressure. If you aren't sure or don't know, then STOP RELOADING IMMEDIATELY, and re-read your load manuals on this topic until you are comfortable. When you see over pressure STOP. The load before you hit the over charge condition is the maximum your pistol can safely tolerate.

2. Ensure your shooting technique while testing is consistent each time. A rest or a few bags will help a lot.

One last thought... FOLLOW YOUR LOAD MANUAL'S INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER. Do not go it alone. If you do not have a good load manual, then I would suggest you get the Speer, Hornady, or Lyman Manual and the ABC's of Reloading Book. The knowledge in these books will keep you and the folks around you safe.

Hope this advice helps...

rtpzwms · May 26, 2017, 09:52 PM

+1 for Paladin7

I will add get a mentor. There is something we are all taking our best guess at but an hour or two with someone that knows what he/she is doing with a loading press is gold.

disseminator · May 27, 2017, 02:45 AM

Most plated bullets are not stable beyond 1200 fps or so. I am guessing you are about 200 feet per second above that?

Do your targets have what look like tears where the bullets go through? That indicates tumbling bullets and you won't get accuracy from them at high speeds.

I have even found the 1200 fps can be too much. It depends on your barrel twist and length too but in your case I'm guessing your too fast for those bullets which are probably made for 380 use.

Dundgren · May 27, 2017, 05:27 AM

Spot on, disseminator. A guy on the range told me this as I thought they were jacketed. Tried 3 lighter loads today and the all worked. Great groupings. Thanks.

std7mag · May 28, 2017, 09:11 AM

Don P,

His COAL of 1.0825" possibly isn't too short for the 9mm. Would depend on bullet nose profile.
I'm shooting 115gr Sierra JHP out of my Walther PPS, Springfield Armory XDS3.3.
If I load these longer than the 1.050" listed in the Sierra Manual, they don't chamber correctly.
Hornady XTP's I can load much longer.

May 23, 2017, 02:14 PM	#1
Dundgren Member Join Date: May 14, 2017 Posts: 27	Inconsistent 9mm handloads. Enormous groups. Please help. Hi! This is my first post here as I have just gotten started with reloading. Ive made around 150 cartridges so far. At first I made some using this reloading data: http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloadi...-mm-luger.html 4.7 grains of N320, 100 Grain bullet, COL 27.5mm. But even though its the same type of bullet (HP HS 100gr) its not exactly the same brand. Also I measured using a caliper without a bullet comparator. These handloads didnt even hit the target at 25 yards. Then I made another 5 but using the plunk-test to determine the cartridge-length and used 5.1 grains of N320. Also made 5 with the same length and 4.7 grains. These gave the best groups I have ever seen. Today I made 50 using the same technique. I used the plunk-test but this time I made the just a bit shorter to accommodate for varying bullet-length. These sucked ass. Then I reset my tool using the plunk-test and made 10 more without adjusting a single thing!! I figured this would make them consistent. But this time the first 5 I shot had 2 completely break away from the group and the second 5 had 1 break away greatly. Why is the accuracy so inconsistent? I know its not me because my groups would never ever become that large shooting manufactured ammo. Also I would like to point out that the ones that made great groups were crimped after bullet-seating and the ones I reloaded most recently were crimped at the same time as I seated the bullet. My equipment: Vihtavouri N320 powder. 5.1 grains. Murom Small Pistol Primers H&N 100 grains Hollow Point High Speed. RCBS Dies Varying cases (some S&B, some CBC and some others)

May 23, 2017, 04:16 PM	#5
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,213	If my math is correct the OAL is in US measurement 1.0825. I think that's a bit short for 9 mm. I'm loading mine at 1.1220 or 28.50 mm. Just my .02 worth. Try loading the for the max length and still pass the plunk test. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

May 24, 2017, 07:15 AM	#11
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,350	One of the great benefits of handloading ...we can load what works in our particular firearm. We can find the "sweet spot" It might be your handgun is telling you something.You CAN use your range time and reloading time pursuing a combination that does not work for you... If that is what you choose. Generally there is a range of bullet weights that work well for a cartridge. You might look to what comes as factory loads. For 9mm,that generally is 115 gr to 147 gr. Expect less satisfactory results when you decide to drive in the ditch beside the road.Between the ditches works better. Be very careful you don't shave that copper ahead of your case mouths. It messes with your headspace/lockup. Note lighter bullets tend to have shorter cylindrical bearing surfaces.They are harder to load square and straight in the case.Its also harder to get them started in the rifling square and straight. Bullets that go down the barrel sort of tipped over shoot real big groups. Your soft swaged plated bullets will perform like cast bullets in many ways.One really important factor is bullet fit. You start by slugging your bore to know your groove diameter. Undersize bullets shoot poorly. Groove dia plus .001 is a ballpark good fit.Bullets must all be the same dia,too. And if your barrel is polygonal vs grooved ... just get jacketed bullets. Welcome!! I hope that helps. You said factory loads shoot well for you. OK. Try buying and loading some 124 gr jacketed bullets.If you choose a JHP,I might not start with a real big hollow point for feed reasons.Targets and cans don't mind if you shoot hardball.See how they shoot for you. You may discover your loading technique is not so bad,you just chose a bullet that does not work for you. Last edited by HiBC; May 24, 2017 at 07:28 AM.

May 26, 2017, 01:59 PM	#21
Paladin7 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2002 Posts: 109	Before you go any further, I'd strongly suggest you do a Ladder Test starting with the lowest powder charge and ending with the highest powder charge. You will never attain accuracy by just picking a random powder weight and testing. Also, what you are doing is dangerous. The Ladder Test is explained in just about every Loading Manual and you should follow this advice to the letter. When you work up charges, it is best to load 5 to 7 rounds at the first charge weight, then do the same for the next step up (i.e. .1 or .2), and so on until you reach the highest charge. Then, get a good rest for your pistol and shoot slow fire groups at each charge weight, giving time between each group for the barrel to cool. Then examine your targets and you will find that one or two groups appear to be the tightest. Do not worry about where they land on the target, your only concern at this stage is how tight they group. Once you have found the tightest grouping charge, you can load a few more, adjust your sights until the POI = POA and you should be good to go. This has worked for me and many others for years. Just a few cautionary notes that are worth mentioning... 1. Learn how to recognize over pressure. If you aren't sure or don't know, then STOP RELOADING IMMEDIATELY, and re-read your load manuals on this topic until you are comfortable. When you see over pressure STOP. The load before you hit the over charge condition is the maximum your pistol can safely tolerate. 2. Ensure your shooting technique while testing is consistent each time. A rest or a few bags will help a lot. One last thought... FOLLOW YOUR LOAD MANUAL'S INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER. Do not go it alone. If you do not have a good load manual, then I would suggest you get the Speer, Hornady, or Lyman Manual and the ABC's of Reloading Book. The knowledge in these books will keep you and the folks around you safe. Hope this advice helps... Last edited by Paladin7; May 26, 2017 at 02:07 PM.

May 26, 2017, 09:52 PM	#22
rtpzwms Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2010 Location: OTS Posts: 1,035	+1 for Paladin7 I will add get a mentor. There is something we are all taking our best guess at but an hour or two with someone that knows what he/she is doing with a loading press is gold. __________________ Experience is what you get when you don’t get what you want.

May 23, 2017, 02:49 PM	#2
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 779	My only thought is I've never seen anyone using lighter than 115 gun bullets and many prefer 124. Why did you choose those? What was the factory ammo? Could be wrong but I've never seen 9mm with 100 gen bullets.

May 23, 2017, 02:49 PM	#3
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,330	You seem to have two problems. First is crimping pistol and 9mm specifically. 9mm headspaces (or is supposed to) on the front of the case. My take (and its just mine) is never seat and crimp in the same operation. Always keep it separate. More so in pistol but I never crimp either one while seating (and yes I used to 40 years ago) What you want, if you are going to crimp, is a mild (by feel) taper crimp not a roll crimp. As little crimp as you can get an a light press (RCBS Junior) is better than a RCBS Rockchucker. The other part is you are operating in a very narrow range, even for 9mm. Many low loads won't cycle the action, but you don't have much latitude. HS-6 is a good 9mm powder, others as well. Also keep in mind, seating too deep with 9mm increases an already dicey pressure situation, 9mm and below are tweezer loads and very tiny factors have big impact.

May 23, 2017, 03:25 PM	#4
Dundgren Member Join Date: May 14, 2017 Posts: 27	I have no Idea how to reply directly... I do not think there is an issue with my bullets being 100gr considering I made 10 perfectly accurate handloads using them. I wont crimp and seat at the same time anymore. This MAY be my culprit but I dont understand why it would be...

May 23, 2017, 04:55 PM	#6
Dundgren Member Join Date: May 14, 2017 Posts: 27	Thanks, Don. Ill try loading your length and hopefully pass the plunk test.

May 23, 2017, 05:43 PM	#7
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	How are you dispensing your powder? If you are weighing each charge we can rule this out. If you are using an automatic powder dispenser you may have some powder dropping light on one drop and heavy on the next. With your load having such a narrow range, a +/- .2 Grain change would explain a lot. Also, in mixed brass, some brands have thinner necks than others. If your crimp is good for a thick neck, it may be weak on a thinner neck and you might be getting bullet set back when the round chambers. That too will cause fliers.

May 23, 2017, 06:05 PM	#8
Dundgren Member Join Date: May 14, 2017 Posts: 27	Yes, I have a dispenser. I loaded some with 4.8 grains now so I wont go over the limit if it happens to be +. I never even considered the bullet set-back. Great info! I also started sorting my brass. Thanks.

May 23, 2017, 10:07 PM	#9
snakeye Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2013 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 127	Did you ever do a ladder load, starting low and working your way up to max load. Doing this will help with accuracy issues

May 24, 2017, 06:22 AM	#10
Dundgren Member Join Date: May 14, 2017 Posts: 27	No, I didn't. I tried 4.7 grains then 5.1 grains. Found out today that my bullets arent actually jacketed, just plated. So I cant use the loading table from VV.

May 24, 2017, 08:05 AM	#12
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Maybe the gun just needs bigger diameter bullets. Not all 9mms do well with .355. I had one that was lousy with that size, better with .356 and great with .357.

May 24, 2017, 09:49 AM	#13
Tsquared Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2016 Location: NE Atlanta Posts: 337	Back in the late 70's when I was new to reloading I had a loading master tell me not to bother with anything but 125gr in 9 mm as that was the weight designed for the 9mm originally. There is a lot of good info in the other posts. The things I would do to tighten it up would be: 1) slug your barrel so you will know what size bullet to reload 2) sort your brass - use the same headstamp and preferably once-shot or virgin brass to work up a load 3) sort your bullets - I have seen a 2.5 gr deviation on a package of "match" quality bullets 4) crimp just enough to straiten out the flair. Over crimping will cause accuracy problems among other issues 5) load a heavier bullet - 124gr is a lot more forgiving I have had more problems developing loads on lighter bullets.

May 24, 2017, 01:19 PM	#14
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...do not think there is an issue with my bullets being 100gr..." Mostly about those being for .380 ACP and 9mm pistols disliking the wee fellows. Tried some cast 86 grain bullets one time(couldn't find anything heavier on short notice) with sad results. Pistol functioned with 'em, but not accurately. Anyway, you need to work up the load, not just pick a couple and hope. 4.7 is the start load. 5.1 is the max load. You need to load 5 of the 4.7 and go up by .1 of a grain to the 5.1. Plated bullets use cast bullet data too. "...the plunk-test to determine the cartridge-length..." That's not what plunking is for or does. Plunking is about the loaded round fitting the chamber. Use 1.050" as the OAL for a 100 grainer.

May 24, 2017, 03:20 PM	#18
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	Most pistol shooters, in my years of experience, cant shoot a group small enough to do a ladder or OCW test and get results that mean anything. My advice to the new reloader is to put the target close enough that you can shoot groups. When the groups shrink to one inch then move the target out a bit further. A consistent grip and good sight alignment will go a long ways in shrinking your groups. Dry fire practice is the best way to get a consistent grip.

May 24, 2017, 03:35 PM	#20
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	I tried ladder testing once, seemed like a waste of time to me. Really had no idea what I was actually looking for and if I picked the middle shot and loaded up some like that, it wasn't necessarily gonna give me a group I could live with! How if would work on a hand gun, I have no idea. Problem for me is I don't know even one person that could do a ladder test even at 25 yds and get anything good enough to use. Handgun's just aren't all that accurate! I have two 9mm's for carry guns. I've never shot either at more than 10 yds and I've never fired any handgun at target's hoping to find I'm not as poor a shot with a handgun as I think! I'm old now and the eye's really suck sometimes! To remedy that, I taught myself to point and shoot defensive handguns and at 10 yds if the target is the size of a watermelon, it's going down. Could be that the bullet's are to light, not a clue but if I were you. I'd try some heavier bullet's and see what happens. That you've just started handloading, is handgun's a new area also? I can handle rifle's fine but I leave a lot to be desired with handguns. My DA revolver's I'll plink with out to about 50 yds and actually try to aim. But aiming is a chore and even though, I don't do teat bad, a watermelon at 50yds is in trouble! Maybe your having shooter error? I'm sure there are more trick's to shooting hand guns well that I don't know. The only time I ever would get real serious about handguns is within about 10 yds a a bad guy with an attitude! His chest is bugger than a watermelon!

May 27, 2017, 02:45 AM	#23
disseminator Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2016 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,012	Most plated bullets are not stable beyond 1200 fps or so. I am guessing you are about 200 feet per second above that? Do your targets have what look like tears where the bullets go through? That indicates tumbling bullets and you won't get accuracy from them at high speeds. I have even found the 1200 fps can be too much. It depends on your barrel twist and length too but in your case I'm guessing your too fast for those bullets which are probably made for 380 use.

May 27, 2017, 05:27 AM	#24
Dundgren Member Join Date: May 14, 2017 Posts: 27	Spot on, disseminator. A guy on the range told me this as I thought they were jacketed. Tried 3 lighter loads today and the all worked. Great groupings. Thanks.

May 28, 2017, 09:11 AM	#25
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,611	Don P, His COAL of 1.0825" possibly isn't too short for the 9mm. Would depend on bullet nose profile. I'm shooting 115gr Sierra JHP out of my Walther PPS, Springfield Armory XDS3.3. If I load these longer than the 1.050" listed in the Sierra Manual, they don't chamber correctly. Hornady XTP's I can load much longer.