New to rifles, "slugged" my barrels. Now what?

[PolarFBear]

I've loaded pistol calibers for quite a while now. But, just getting into rifles. Have "slugged" my 1952 Polish Mosin Nagant sporter and my son's Lee Enfield Mk 4. The Enfield intrigues me most. I have read that these run really large, up to .312+. Surprise: this one mic'ed out to .307 inches. My skills are really novice level. Does this truly mean I can get off the shelf .308 bullets (metallic and lead)? Just as an aside the action on the Enfield is head AND shoulders superior to the Mosin Nagant, and it's not to bad itself.

[g.willikers]

Slugging a barrel to get the correct dimensions is a skill, too.
If you did it correctly and got an accurate measurement, sure - just get the bullets that fit.
Your rifle will tell you if the bullets you choose are the right ones.
Accurate = yup.
Inaccurate = nope.
All other things considered.
Not to discourage you, but reloading for rifles is a lot more complicated than for pistols.
Fortunately there's plenty of good info and sources on the subject on the web.

[condor bravo]

No hard and fast answers on this. To begin with, what would be good accuracy with these rifles?? I don't know but would think that a 3 shot, 2" group at 100 yards would be considered very good and a 3" group as good. And 5 shots so much the better. Do you have factory ammunition to arrive at something to shoot for? For loading, yes try a jacketed .308 bullet for the .307 bore, and a .308 or .309 cast bullet. For cast bullets, gas checks may be beneficial. Do you have a source for cast bullets? If not, I would suggest Montana Bullet Works. They have an excellent variety of rifle bullets to select from, with or without gas checks, and usually available at several diameters per bullet type. Most are available at either 15 or 22 bhn hardness and priced at around $25 per 100.

For the Enfield, Lyman suggests 200 gr Lyman 314299 cast bullet which appears to have a gas check and sized to groove diameter.

[Mike / Tx]

If your REAL serious about the cast you might give this link a read.
Pound Cast

This is the first sentence which basically explains it,

"A pound cast is a way to produce an accurate rendering of the shoulder, neck, throat, lead, and rifling of your barrel."

It does help out in accuracy, but it may be a bit more than your really interested in getting into.

You might do a search for "Ed Harris cast loads" and read up on some of his works as well.

Hope that helps

[Don Fischer]

I don't know a thing about slugging barrel's. But if the rifle is an honest 30 cal, it will take .308 bullet's. If the measurement you came up with is correct, not saying it isn't, and you go with .312 bullet's, where you gonna get loading data? I have always trusted that the barrel is what it is said to be, don't second guess the manufacturer. If you feel the need to second guess it, get rid of the rifle and don't get another.

[RC20]

First keep in mind that one mans dimension is another mans issue.

303 is not 303 caliber. Its more along the lines of .312 (bullet diameter)

Also with the British groves (5) its hard to get a direct opposite reading.

Russia uses lands not grove diameter (ergo a 7.62 is more a 7.92) actually.

That's why they make special bullets for those guns that are not .308.

[condor bravo]

Re Don's comment above:
Since .307 sounds rather unusual, do a quick check on your mike by measuring a jacketed bullet, like a .30 caliber to make sure it reads properly at .308.

[ShootistPRS]

Jacketed bullets will easily shoot from a bore that is.001" to .002" tighter and there are some that will shoot a bullet that is .001" too small too. Lead bullets should be a snug fit to the throat in order to seal properly and not leave a lot of lead in the bore. A chamber cast is better at giving you that information.

There are quite a few of the old .312" bores that have been re-barreled or sleeved to .308 so it doesn't surprise me that you found one.

[RC20]

If its 303 its highly unlikely it 308.

The only ones that got changed got changed to 7.62 Nato.

Ergo, if its the British 5 grove, then your measurement method needs special tool. The lands and groves do not line up directly opposite each other.

You can shoot 308 in it, accuracy may not be good.

[Josh Smith]

Originally Posted by PolarFBear

I've loaded pistol calibers for quite a while now. But, just getting into rifles. Have "slugged" my 1952 Polish Mosin Nagant sporter and my son's Lee Enfield Mk 4. The Enfield intrigues me most. I have read that these run really large, up to .312+. Surprise: this one mic'ed out to .307 inches. My skills are really novice level. Does this truly mean I can get off the shelf .308 bullets (metallic and lead)? Just as an aside the action on the Enfield is head AND shoulders superior to the Mosin Nagant, and it's not to bad itself.

Sir,

You need to clean that barrel. It's not unusual to have layers of metal fouling in there.

Foaming bore cleaner usually does it -- copper turns green on patches -- but I've had to go to Hoppes Benchrest before, full of ammonia. Great stuff!

I've gone through hundreds of patches, thought I got it all, switched cleaners, and gotten more out.

These rifles were used hard and were not always cleaned properly.

Regards,

Josh

[F. Guffey]

You need to clean that barrel. It's not unusual to have layers of metal fouling in there.

I purchased a rifle in Victoria, Texas, the gun store had their minds made up; they were going to sell that rifle. When looking down the barrel I found no evidence of rifling so I told the dealer if he could convince me the rifle had rifling I would purchase it.

As always it was hot and humid, the dealer worked and then worked some more for more than an hour, he used everything available and then rifling started to appear. A wild guestimate would suggest the bore was .298"; the rifle was a 30/06.. The dealer wore out some equipment, finally I decided I would purchase the rifle. Problem: It is possible the rifle had never been cleaned and the reduced diameter created high pressure so I was concerned about the length of the chamber. BUT: If the restricted bore increased the pressure and the rifle was a low number 03 the rifle had to be one of those low numbered rifles that was not brittle. Anyhow, once I cleaned the barrel the rifling looked new.

Slugging the barrel; I no longer advise reloaders on methods and techniques for slugging barrels, the last time I did that the strong got dizzy and the weak past out. And then there is going beyond cleaning, I made a system after I saw a bore snake demonstrated, it is the same but different. It is impossible to get my system stuck and even if it did it can be taking apart without removing it from the barrel. I no longer talk about my cleaning system because reloaders must be happy with what they are using.

I thought I was going to make short work of the cleaning, I went to a pharmacy for some stuff to make an old formula, the pharmacist talked me out of the notion.

F. Guffey

[T. O'Heir]

"...this one mic'ed out to .307 inches..." Something isn't right. Lee-Enfields have .311" to .315" groove diameters. Mind you, I've heard of but have never seen 'em at .310". There have been both factory and aftermarket .308 barrels made for No. 4. Usually stamped as such. .307" is possible if the rifle has never been cleaned like Frank says. Isn't likely though, but clean it the slug it.
The .303" is the nominal bore diameter just like 7.62mm is for a Mosin and .300" is for .30-06/.308Win. That's the diameter of the hole drilled. It's also what the Brits measure instead of the groove diameter in North America.
And it's a No. 4 not a Mk 4. Assuming it is a No. 4 Mk I or Mk I*. Rear sight is on the receiver not the barrel.
Barrels get slugged by putting the rifle in a padded vise and hammering a cast .30 cal. bullet or suitably sized lead fishing sinker through the barrel, preferably from the chamber end, and measuring the bullet/sinker across the lands with a micrometer or digital Vernier. Use a plastic mallet and a 1/4" brass rod. Easier to do than it sounds.

[RC20]

As much as I like the group, at times its really annoying when people ignore what is being presented.

Please read down far enough into this post where it shows a 5 grove barrel and the issue in measuring. It also clearly explains form the start there is an issue.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...oove-bore-slug

Sometimes it just gets to the point I don't care if what is presented is ignored, its as much about getting people to pay attention as helping (more)

[F. Guffey]

Sometimes it just gets to the point I don't care if what is presented is ignored, its as much about getting people to pay attention as helping (more)

And then: There is always an 'and then', there are little minds that are trained to ignore and some little minds are selective, there is a manufacturer that claims he is getting out of business that ignored information and was selective about what he agreed with.

He claimed he invented the 3 legged milk stool, three legged chair and table etc., I did not agree. There was only one member of this forum that knew what I was talking about.

Measuring odd?: And then there is the one legged chair. One day I sent a student out of the class to get a one legged chair, those that were awake wanted to know what a one legged chair was used for.

Anyhow, I have suggested we learn to zero our tools/micrometers and gages.

Sometimes it just gets to the point I don't care if what is presented is ignored, its as much about getting people to pay attention as helping (more)

The toughest job for me happens when I find someone that does not care, what is so 'tuff' about that job? Trying to get them to care.

There is a reloading forum that has 'T-iga' bits of space wasted on the 5 groove barrel, all of it created by one member, and after all of that no one can do it.

F. Guffey

[RC20]

Well Mr. Guffey I do have to admit, once again you have me scratching my head.

Unclenick seems to be able to wrinkle out what you mean, maybe he will translate for us?

[F. Guffey]

Well Mr. Guffey I do have to admit, once again you have me scratching my head.

It seems to bother you more than it bothers me, I do not approach problems like they are complicated and or 'just can not be solved'. For 10+ years I have been told how difficult life can be when the rifling comes in odd numbers. Measuring the two diameters of the barrel does not change for me when I go from 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 etc., and then I have one barrel that looks like hair.

F. Guffey

[PolarFBear]

Time to close? I just needed an answer as I thought my diameters a wee bit snug. Got some good answers on how to "slug". Thanks.

[F. Guffey]

I thought my diameters a wee bit snug.

And if the barrel is 'a wee bit snug' consider reducing the powder charge. I have been informed by reloaders they have rifles that can handle an extra 4 grains over maximum with no serious after effects.

Going the other direction I have been told by reloaders they find it necessary to reduce the maximum powder charge because of 'signs of over pressure'.

I was accused of being involved in some risky stuff. I did not agree because I factored in a couple of 'factors'.

F. Guffey

[JeepHammer]

No stories about a chicken that swallowed keys or whatever...

The industry standard for checking ('Gauging') a barrel was an 'Air Gauge'.
A head that matched the rifling was drilled with air ports,
The more air leakage the larger the bore, the less leakage the 'Tighter' the bore.

That has given way to laser gauging.

Chambers were traditionally 'Slugged', not bores.
Too many issues with the core material (handle/'Stick') and expansion/contraction of the 'Slugging' material, anything from lead to antimony to tin and all mixtures of all three.

The only reason I've ever poured a 'Slug' for the bore was to lap out tight spots in a bore, which isn't needed much anymore with modern equipment.

[mehavey]

Pin gauge the bore size, add 8-10 thou, and call it a day.

[F. Guffey]

No stories about a chicken that swallowed keys or whatever...

Whatever: The question asked by jimmy Dean had to do with the chicken crossing the road; it seemed there was an interest in 'Why the chicken crossed the road'. Jimmy said the obvious answer to the question was to show the opossum it could be done.

And then there was the question about the chicken dipping snuff; I said if I tell you the chicken dips snuff, don't argue. All you have to do is catch that little pullet and look under its wings to determine which side she carries her can.

Back to the OP's question; he wants to know how to accurately measure the slug. And there was a question about the accuracy of the slug.

I have Br'er Rabbit barrels, those are barrels reloaders got cute and or fancy with methods and techniques when checking the diameter, I also have a few barrels that are rendered scrap by smiths, no way to determine what caused the problems because I can not get an honest answer. One barrel has a stuck bullet, stuck jag and a drill that sheared off when he made an attempt to drill the jag. I asked him how the bullet got between the jag and drill bit.

F. Guffey

[RC20]

OP: I am glad you think you have your questions answered but if you look at the cross diagram on a 5 grove barrel I supplied you can see how iffy that is to measure.

It seems I have scored a clear miss on the 50 yard target, sigh.

I will take this into the philosophical realm as at my age that is becoming important, if only to me.

It seems to bother you more than it bothers me, I do not approach problems like they are complicated and or 'just can not be solved'. For 10+ years I have been told how difficult life can be when the rifling comes in odd numbers. Measuring the two diameters of the barrel does not change for me when I go from 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 etc., and then I have one barrel that looks like hair.

Mr. Guffey:

Could you then explain the very narrow window of being correct for the 5 grove diagram?

Yes, I have come to think you have a lot to offer, so yes it bothers me. Being able to express and pass knowledge on in a coherent and straight forward manner is what a legacy is about. Once we are gone, all that is gone as well unless its passed onto others. Knowledge can live on forever.

I am sorry we can't meet in person, it would be one if not the most interesting interactions of my life I believe.

I would hope it would bother you as well, but that is just a hope, I can only speak for myself.

Where I work when I am gone, I can see it even now, the deviation of it that you have to bring back to what is right is an on going battle. That is why the good story tellers were so honored before print, they accurately and clearly passed on hard won knowledge.

The communist party used to have an ideologist to keep it all straight so that a running dog capitalist did not become something endearing and warm and fuzzy animal thorough drift.

Just my thoughts.

[JeepHammer]

Mehavey is closest.
The 'Bore' is the hole in the barrel blank.
For instance, .223 is a .218" bore blank before rifling grooves are added.
A pin gauge is how most smiths determine initial bore diameter.

Personally, I start with an undersized bore, do a smooth hone to proper bore size so I know I've removed scratches and have a round bore,
Then cut rifling.
It's pretty easy to determine rifling depth on the broach (cutting tool that cuts the actual rifling is called a broach)...

Not that gauging the rifling is needed a lot anymore with modern equipment...
Older, particularly military barrels should be inspected/gauged if you have issues, military production was often done on old, worn tooling & fixtures,
Modern barrels are often produced on CNC equipment and have superior QC equipment for checks, so not nearly as many issues as we had back in the day.

A good bore scope is a wonderful thing, any actual gun smith should have one.
On the older rifles in particular, look for the rifling to start straight, then wobble a little before it starts to spiral evenly.
This is a sign the chamber was cut before rifling, A bad way to do things.

When the rifling is cut first, the chamber reamer removes the loading/unloading start of the rifling broach.
The start up load on the broach often causes problems with rifling depth requiring lapping to even things out.

Hammer forging rifling will cause 'Chokes', tight spots or large spots in the bore/rifling.
When hammer forging is done EXACTLY RIGHT it's hard to beat,
It's easy to do wrong, and it's FAST to make barrels hammer forging, so during wartime there were a lot of hammer forged barrels that aren't quite 'Right'.

This brings in the air gauging process for bore/rifling check,
And about all of us have seen the pictures/video of the press operator STRIGHTENING barrels by eye...

With modern equipment, the bore *Should* be straight to start with,
With pulled broaches, the bore/rifling *Should* be correct.

Now, keep in mind you can buy an AR barrel for $20 (or less) in bulk, made in China, bore off center to the outside profile, rifling wonky, chamber no where close...
I'm talking a reasonable quality barrel made in a country that doesn't use slave labor!