Redding sets of shell holders

[Wendyj]

Curious if these she'll holders actually work setting headspace or if they are just a sell tactic. I only use one brand of brass in a few rifles but use several types in other rifles. Continually changing die adjustments on different brands. Hoped these might save time picking a specific she'll holder for each brass but don't want to waste the money if they don't work. Looking for suggestions from someone who uses them.

[Don Fischer]

I've never really got into shell holder's other than they are the right size or not.

[disseminator]

They will work but you can do the same thing with a set of feeler gauges from Amazon.com for a lot less money and the feeler gauge will work for any caliber where the Redding Competition $$ shell holders will require a new set for each different shell holder number.

I bought this set a while back and it works ok. I actually haven't used it much yet and I also have the Hornady Comparator set for setting my dies up so, multiple ways to do it.

[243winxb]

Having not used them, they should help with adjusting shoulder bump.

When the shell holder contacts the die, this helps square the die in the press. Lock the ring while shell holder and die are in contact.

Press slop is removed when the 2 are making contact.

An RCBS press will have a shoulder set back variation of .001" just from how hard the cam over is.

[AVirginian]

I bought a set and find them quite useful as they do simplify bumping the shoulder a few thousandths. The feeler gauge method also works but can be a bit finicky (something else to loose).

I bought the #1 set that works on all 3 calibers of rifle that I shoot, 22-250, 6.5 Creedmoor and 308, that made the purchase a lot more palatable for me.

[T. O'Heir]

Shell holders have nothing whatever to do with headspace. Cartridges do not have headspace.

[Metal god]

In a word they are "fantastic" . They are designed to remove all press deflection and do so superbly. Of all the tools that you could have that are not actually needed . These I would not go with out using them .
http://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearc...temsPerPage=48

I use them for both 308 and 223 and every case is sized to with in +/- .001 from head to datum point .

I have much i can say about these shell holders but Im on my phone right now and it's a pain to write long posts . I'll update later

[Metal god]

I used to use feeler gauges under the case in the shell holder to fine tune my case sizing .



Now this was not needed every time ,rather only with those case that had a bit more spring back then the rest . Example . Let say I needed my case head space to be 1.630 ( 308 ) Most would come out about right but a few would resist the sizing process and come out around 1.632 or 1.633 . This would be do to press deflection/stretch or deflection in the linkage it's self in the ram and arm assembly because the cases needed that little extra to size them down and the press would give more then the case .

Example

Here are two pictures with the same die setting on the press . One does not have a case in the shell holder and die . The other is when sizing a case ( 308 )

First pic the die and shell holder is touching . ( not much but they are when the ram is fully up )



Second pic shows what happens when you put stress on the press and linkage by FL sizing a case . Notice the gap between the shell holder and die that has appeared .



So when I'd get those stubborn cases I'd place the proper size feeler gauge under the case head lifting the case up that amount . I'd then run the case back up into the die and the shoulder would be set back the additional amount the feeler gauge lifted it up . This worked just fine but required me to measure every single case after sizing . This was very time consuming .

Some might ask , why not why not screw the die down more in order for the standard shell holder and die to make hard contact with cam over . This will remove all press deflection as well . The issue with that is when using a standard die and shell holder and making hard contact . You generally will size the case down much more then needed leaving a good amount of head clearance . I've seen as much as .012 but you'd likely see .006 to .008 unless you have a tight chamber . This will substantially reduce case life and could effect accuracy .

This is often why you hear bumping the shoulders back .002 to .003 . Well to do that you need often need to back the die out a bit reintroducing the possibility of press flex or linkage deflection .

OK meat and potatoes time The Redding competition shell holders allow you to still have hard contact between the die and shell hold with cam over while at the same time sizing your case ( head to datum point ) longer in .002 increments depending on the shell holder you use .

I have found when the press , die and proper shell holder are set up correctly . virtually every case comes out to a +/- of .001 of one another . If the first five come out . 1.630 It's very unlikely any other case will be longer then 1.631 or shorter then 1.629 with 90% or better of them coming out right at 1.630 .

I absolutely love my Redding competition shell holders and would highly recommend them to anyone that wants there cases sized consistently . That all said I'm not sure they're good for and type of cases . Belted cases come to mind unless you're head spacing off the shoulder anyways . They'd be useless with straight walled cases as far as I could see so they have some limits but when they work , IMHO they work well .

[Wendyj]

I may be wrong but I use a headspace compareter to measure how far I've set the shoulders back on bottleneck cases. Oheir states there is no headspace on a cartridge. Maybe I'm using wrong words. I am wanting the 7 mag set for 7 mag 300 wsm 300 WM and 338 rum. Will also purchase the 308 for various pickup 30-06 -243 and 7-08 since they are all same she'll holder. Can't find a you tube video on them but it does make sense to set back .002 or whatever I need verses moving dies every time I change brass companies.

[Dave P]

Redding shell holders are wonderful. I load for each individual rifle, and every one has a different HEADSPACE. Each recipe calls out a differt shell holder, so I can precisely replicate known good loads.

[243winxb]

Maybe I'm using wrong words.

SAAMI calls it Head Clearance when talking about the cartridge.

Or use "Cartridge Headspace" and "Chamber Headspace" to keep the nitpickers happy.

We know what you mean.

It really Hornady's fault for not using the word comparator instead of headspace gauge.

[Unclenick]

Note that the feeler gauge technique does not do the same thing. The feeler gauge causes the shoulder of the case to be set back more than a standard shell holder alone allows. The Redding shell holders force the die away from the case head, causing the shoulder to be set back less. They have deck heights that are standard+0.002 to standard+0.010" in five steps of 0.002".

If you do not need much force to resize your cases, simply adjusting the die position by case comparator will get you the control you need. If the sizing takes some force and the press has any spring in it worth mentioning (this goes double for aluminum frame presses, as aluminum has a lower modulus of elasticity than than cast iron does), then you will probably find more case-to-case variation when you do this without solid die contact with the shell holder deck. The Redding system is to compensate for excess chamber headspace by letting you contact the deck to produce a case that fits that extra headspace more closely.

[mehavey]

Cartridges do not have headspace.

Cartridge cases do have a headspace dimension.

And while the Hornady inserts do not provide that "precise/exact/actual" headspace dimension (machining/edge tolerances on the insert hole), they're within a coupla thou -- and perfect in repeatable measurement once a just-fit case is determined.

[Metal god]

Note that the feeler gauge technique does not do the same thing. The feeler gauge causes the shoulder of the case to be set back more than a standard shell holder alone allows

Correct , how ever I was speaking when you have the die backed off the shell holder a bit . Cases sized for my Savage and Ruger 308's have the die off the standard shell holder by about .004 to have the shoulder set back .002 from fire formed . This means I do/did not have hard contact with cam over . This allowed flex/deflection in the press causing some cases not to be sized down as much as others ( only by a couple thou ) but still measurable .

So if I wanted to bump the shoulders back .002 but 5% of them did not get bumped at all . I would have to set the die to bump 95% cases .004 in order to get that 5% to get bumped back .002 . Instead I'd have the die set to bump 95% off the cases back .002 and use the feeler gauge to bump the shoulder back a little more on the other 5% rather then adjusting the die down for just that 5% when ever they came up . It was just quicker that way rather then constantly adjusting the die . NOTE I'm speaking about getting very consistently sized cases from one another . In general this is not needed to reload ammo but the Redding competition die set will do that for you .

So yes if you were using a standard shell holder and making hard contact with the die . Then shimmed the case up with the feeler gauge you would "really" be sizing the case down . So much so that I'd say if that was needed your chamber was likely out of spec .

[disseminator]

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I can't see using the feeler UNDER the case head.

I have a Sako 308 that has a very tight chamber with a long throat. The fired brass drops right into a Wilson case gage without any sizing at all.

That rifle I'm just running the full length sizing die since it's not doing anything to the body, it's basically a neck sizing die.

On my 7mmRM Model 70 however, the chamber is like the grand canyon and cases grow by about 6 grains when fired, these I am neck sizing only. Occasionally I might want to push the shoulder back a bit and when setting up the body die I use the feeler gauge between the top of the shellplate and the bottom of the die.

This is a repeatable method in my application and though there may be a "better" way, it works for me.

Actually, I don't even need the feelers at all. You could just adjust the die using the comparator until your cases are sizing where you want them.

More than one way to do it.

[mehavey]

Actually, I don't even need the feelers at all. You could just adjust the die
using the comparator until your cases are sizing where you want them.

^^^^ THIS ^^^^

(Particularly since the brass has individualized "spring" no less than the press)

[roc1]

You can put shims under dies works great to. I have done that on Redding press doesn't work on CoAx though.
Roc1

[SARuger]

I think what may be trying to be accomplished here is removing the slack at the shell holder for tight chambers.

My .243 Ruger American is a tight chambered rifle and I use a small set of Snap On feeler gauges between the case head and shell holder to push the case against the inner top of the shell holder and into the die a little further.

When I check the cases in the Wilson Case Gauge, the case head falls below the "min" line but chambers perfectly. My cases are lasting 5-6 reloads with no issues and no annealing.

It makes me scratch my head.............

[F. Guffey]

I suggested using feeler gages many years ago on Shooters forum a moderator removed the posing and then accused me of VOO Doo reloading. He got over it and the next time the question about increasing the dies ability to overcome case resistance or increase the die ability to reduce the cases length he started with; that is no biggy, I have been doing that for ever and then he when into 'All you have to do is etc. etc. I was so proud.

This question was about the REDDING competition shell holders. The REDDING shell holders have nothing to do with decreasing the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head, the REDDING shell holders are design to prevent reducing the case length between the shoulder and case head.

Again, I can increase or decrease the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head with a feeler gage. In the beginning reloaders had one option, they would ground the top of the shell holder and or bottom of the die. I never found it necessary to grind the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die to increase the ability to decrease the length of the case. Try to remember, this question was about the REDDING competition shell holder.

Sizing cases for short chambers or a failure on the part of the reloader to understand why the case has more resistance to sizing than the press, die and shell holder can overcome? Rather than think about the problem many reloaders started grinding. One day I wondered; so I tested a few lubes that were not on the list of case lubes, sure enough I found a no name lube that worked so I saved it for the times the going gets tuff.

F. Guffey

[Metal god]

Originally Posted by You

Actually, I don't even need the feelers at all. You could just adjust the die
using the comparator until your cases are sizing where you want them.

Originally Posted by Me

So if I wanted to bump the shoulders back .002 but 5% of them did not get bumped at all . I would have to set the die to bump 95% cases .004 in order to get that 5% to get bumped back .002 . Instead I'd have the die set to bump 95% off the cases back .002 and use the feeler gauge to bump the shoulder back a little more on the other 5% rather then adjusting the die down for just that 5% when ever they came up

I agree that not only you but rather nobody "needs" to use the feeler gauges . I used them to get my cases precisely sized before I started using the Comp shell holders .

My pictures in post #8 show how much my press ( Hornady classic single stage ) deflects/flexes . The press is an "O" ring design so I don't think it's the cast iron "O" ring part that's the issue . I believe most if not all of my deflection/flex is in the linkage of the ram . That flex gap I get in post #8 is at least .010 if not more . With so much flex in my press I can see why my cases can have a +/- .002+ swing from head to datum point when sized . When I switched to the comp shell holders I no longer had that variance and all my cases now are sized very consistently .

I will say it again though . The comp shell holders are not "needed" to size cases that will chamber in a rifle . They are just another tool to load a more consistent cartridges . I personally would not size a bottle neck case with out using them YMMV . oops that's not true . I don't use them for 30-30 but then again like belted cases the 30-30 does not head space of the shoulder . So I guess I'll restate that to read I would not size a case that head spaces off the shoulder with out using my competition shell holders .

[Reloadron]

WendyJ mentions:

I may be wrong but I use a headspace compareter to measure how far I've set the shoulders back on bottleneck cases. Oheir states there is no headspace on a cartridge. Maybe I'm using wrong words. I am wanting the 7 mag set for 7 mag 300 wsm 300 WM and 338 rum. Will also purchase the 308 for various pickup 30-06 -243 and 7-08 since they are all same she'll holder. Can't find a you tube video on them but it does make sense to set back .002 or whatever I need verses moving dies every time I change brass companies.

Understandable as T.OHeir mentions:

Shell holders have nothing whatever to do with headspace. Cartridges do not have headspace.

Maybe to make things a little clear we could look at a few definitions:

HEADSPACE:
The distance from the face of the closed breech of a firearm to the surface in the chamber on which the cartridge case seats.
HEADSPACE GAGE:
A device used in a firearm to determine the distance between the breech face and the chamber surface on which the cartridge seats. Also called Breeching Plug.

Now if we look at a SAAMI Drawing of Cartridge and Chamber here is what we typically see:

{Ron, The SAAMI drawings all have a copyright notice at the bottom that you clipped. You need their written permission to post them here. Please see the board policy on posting copyrighted materials. Otherwise, you will need to redraw to the dimensions yourself.}

Looking at the cartridge dimensions there is no dimension labeled or called out as Headspace. However, the chamber dimensions clearly call out a headspace dimension. Additionally there are headspace gauges but they are not a gauge the average shooter sees or uses.

Headspace Gauges:

The headspace gauges are pictured on the right. Unfortunately over the years a good number of manufacturers have taken to calling gauges which measure cartridge dimensions headspace gauges. Many shooters have come to accept this practice and frequently refer to a "cartridge headspace gauge" and a "chamber headspace gauge". A simple Google of "headspace gauge" will bring up a collage of both types of gauges. The Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gauge 5 Bushing Set with Comparator is a good example of how the terms are tossed around. Everybody wants to sell something.

Anyway, this is the issue with cartridges do not have headspace explained. I do not see the new terminology going away anytime soon so take it for what it is worth. I try to be specific when I use the terms and try to avoid using headspace gauge unless I actually am referring to a headspace gauge.

Ron

[F. Guffey]

In the big inning reloaders did not know the difference between a comparator and a gage.. Most continue to believe L. Wills made a digital head space gage.

And then there was the other concept; to avoid confusing anyone I determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face and I determine the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head. And still; everyone is confused.

And then there are transfers and standards, I am the only one that uses them.

F. Guffey

[disseminator]

So it seems the only thing unresolved here is whether or not contact with the shell-plate is needed for consistent sizing and concentricity.

I would say no based on the premise of the Forster Co-Ax press and competition dies that "float" on the cartridge.

On my interpretation of the original posters question regarding whether or not the Competition Shellpates are "worth it", I would say no.

But reloading companies gotta make money so......

[F. Guffey]

So it seems the only thing unresolved here is whether or not contact with the shell-plate is needed for consistent sizing and concentricity.

The story always goes something like: "I sized my cases and the bolt will not close bewcfause of these mean Ol' LC machine gun fired cases".

The response is always 'bump your shoulder, I always bump my shoulder .002" and no one knows the origin of the .002" bump (?). A reloader should know if the case was returned to minimum length (from the shoulder/datum to the case head) before lowering the ram. Anyhow a little or a lot of discipline would solve these problems.

One more time, ther is a good chance the case can have more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome, I know; spring back sounds cute but for me there are time the case wins and the press looses.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

I've never really got into shell holder's other than they are the right size or not.

I have, as gotten into shell holders and I have shell holders. MY favorite shell holder are RCBS. I will try to make that clear, I have shell holders, all of my shell holders are not RCBS. Again; I like RCBS shell holders because they fit like a hand-me down short, they fit where they touch. When using feeler gage to shorten the case for short chambers I can shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head .012" with a feeler gage and a RCBS shell holder.

I have other shell holders, some of my other shell holders fit the case head, the fit eliminates the possibility of shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. One day I was asked to make a shop call. The builder/reloader of rifles wanted me t help him form cases for wildcats he was building. He wanted me to bring 'the other' #4 RCBS shell holder, instead of bring the other shell holder I threw a gasket cutting ball peen hammer in with the tools I knew he would need.

His cases would not fit his #4 RCBS shell holder because he had 2 sets of 20 cases that had been hammered with heavy loads. I could have thrown a few of my good fitting shell holders into the box but that would have created a bigger problem, that would have necessitated a bigger hammer.

F. Guffey