H110 - 357 mag - 158 grain JHP - I'm at 18 grains

[black_hog_down]

So... I am working on a hunting load for my Ruger 77/357.
158 grain Hornady JHP for SJSP
I started out at the starting load of 16 grains and have worked up to 18.
This is pretty far over max. I don't see any over pressure signs. Any reason not to keep shooting this?
Thanks.

[shootniron]

Do you know what you are gaining with the over max loads?

I typically don't go over max...I find there is no reward.

[reddog81]

Per Hodgdon's website 16.7 is the max and at 40,700 CUP. I would assume that using anything over 16.7 grains would mean that you are running past the limits of what the cartridge was intended for. Lyman #48 lists the max at 17 grains.

What pressure signs are you looking for? Any primer flattening or sticky extraction can vary significantly depending on the components used. I'm sure the 77/357 can handle pressures higher than your average handgun, but I have no idea how much more - it could be 1%, 10%, 20%. Maybe someone out there knows the answer, but the only way to test how far you can take a gun basically means your sample will be destroyed or at least significantly abused.

[Nick_C_S]

Yeah, you're up there. Since you're overcharging (per published data), I won't make a recommendation.

What I will say is that Hornady 9th's max is 15.6. My old Speer #10 (from when charge weights were generally higher) peaks at 17.8gn. At any rate, your primers look good. I've flattened them out far beyond that. I've also loaded like an idiot in decades past; so that doesn't really mean much, other than to say your primers don't look flattened compared to what I've seen.

The good news is that H110 is very forgiving stuff (on the high side - it has its issues when downloading). I've loaded it (W296 in my case - same stuff, different packaging) pretty aggressively and never had a problem; which should not be construed as a recommendation.

158 grain Hornady JHP for SJSP

?? Not familiar with that bullet(s). Did you mean XTP, by chance? Mostly just curious, as it has little impact in the context of your question. You're overcharging, regardless of the specific 158 bullet being used.

[Salmoneye]

Here's an early 1990's jug label I have on the shelf:

{Edit: Please read board policy on posting copyrighted materials}

I am still using 14.5gr as max for 158gr jacketed...

[black_hog_down]

I meant jacketed hollow points and semi jacket. But yes, the XTP.
And technically it is the flat point XTP. The one with the smaller cavity.

[black_hog_down]

Originally Posted by shootniron

Do you know what you are gaining with the over max loads?

I typically don't go over max...I find there is no reward.

^This.
I will dial it back some and keep it there until I get a chronograph.

[Nick_C_S]

But yes, the XTP.

Thanks for the info.

XTP's sit a little deeper in the case than many of their 158 brethren. This small reduction in internal case volume likely boosts pressure some. It's not likely a critical factor in all this. But it is good information to bear in mind.

[Hammerhead]

Without a chrono I would back off. If velocity is leveling off, you could be entering red line territory.

I only trust primers to tell me that I've reached a good minimum pressure, never to judge max pressure.

Hornady carbine data has 15.5 grains H110 as max for that bullet with a velocity of 1700 fps in a 16" barrel.

[ShootistPRS]

At 18 grains he is already 0.5 grains past the maximum listed load. We have no way to know what his pressures are or how much pressure the gun can take.
I load my 357 close to the maximum but not over it. My suggestion is to back the load down looking for an accurate load. I found a accurate load just 0.5 grains under the listed maximum. Accuracy is more important than an extra 1% in velocity.

[Mal H]

black_hog_down - since you're showing us the primers and heads of the various loads, I have to assume you think the primer is the best indicator of over pressure available to those of us without any fancy pressure testing gear. It isn't. Measure the diameter right at the web (just a little above the rim) to see if there is any expansion there. If there is, then you went too far.

It would be interesting to see what that measurement is for all 5 of your load experiments compared to an unfired Starline case if you have one from the same batch..

[black_hog_down]

The 77/357 is an unsupported chamber and always has a bulge at the base. Using calipers and comparing to factory loads I do not see a significant increase in bulge. They vary a little.
But yes, I am looking for flat primers.

[ShootistPRS]

Sticky cases start happening at around 25% over max pressures and flattened primers are seen at around 50% over maximum in most pistol calibers. The 357 has about the same working pressure as a 9mm; 33000 psi. Your typical signs of over-pressure don't begin until around 55000 psi or more.

[black_hog_down]

Thanks guys.
The primers are not flat or pierced.
The cases don't bulge more than normal.
And I don't see soot past the case mouth.
That being said, I will back it off and wait till I can get a chronograph.

[evtSmtx]

I'm not advising you to do what I did but,
Following an article from Handloader by Brian Pearce a few years ago I went quit a ways above max following his REDHAWK ONLY loads for .44 mag

That said I did it once since the max loads are a lot of fun to shoot but I mostly shoot .44 with my son and I don't want to blow up him or his s&w 629.

My humble opinion is that over max loads are not worth it unless you have a compelling goal, and make DAMNED SURE nobody with a gun that can't handle them(I triple bagged them with RUGER ONLY stickers).

I came, for myself, to the opinion that if I wanted a 500 mag, I should go buy one and I don't care enough to spend the bux for a .500

all that said, if it works well in your gun and you control who has access to those rounds - well, YOYO(you're on your own)

[DaleA]

I have to assume you think the primer is the best indicator of over pressure available to those of us without any fancy pressure testing gear. It isn't. Measure the diameter right at the web (just a little above the rim) to see if there is any expansion there. If there is, then you went too far.

Thanks for the information. I don't load to the max but this is good information to have.

[random guy]

Just wondering...is your top load compressed and how much? As a rule of thumb, max loads of H110 will about fill the airspace in a straight walled magnum pistol round. If you compress it at all though, you'd better be cautious.

Not necessarily related at all but your model 77 is not a typical .357 (to state the obvious). After not enough initial testing, I once loaded a large batch of .44 Mag with as much W231 as I thought I could get away with . Turns out, it was MORE than I could get away with. Extraction was very hard ("pound them out" hard) in a Redhawk and primers were flattened. My Winchester Trapper would eat them like candy though with absolutely no indication of pressure. Point being, the rifle had very different pressure characteristics than the revolver. If anything, I would have expected the situation to be reversed, the revolver having longer throats and some pressure relief from the cylinder gap. My best guess is that the revolver throats were tighter and that max pressure hits before the bullet reaches the gap. Bottom line, in my case the carbine was running considerably lower pressures with the same ammo.

A similar situation may exist in your rifle.

These were cast loads and keyholed badly from the carbine though and were totally useless. So I pulled several hundred rolled crimped bullets. Lesson learned.



Driving handgun bullets to extreme velocity is definitely fun but can be self-defeating as well, depending on your purpose. They shed that velocity very quickly and many will blow up if you do hit something at hyper velocity. Sometimes that is what you want though.

[black_hog_down]

I hunt hogs on land that allows shotguns and pistol calibers. This is county land and what they really mean is 357 or 44 Magnum. The way my agreement is actually written I could use a pistol length AR15 but I have access to a bunch of nice land and I'm not gonna push it.
So anyway, I know the 77 will handle it so I just want to see if I can push it a little further. I loaded up to 18 grains but I didn't really think I would get there. I figured pressure signs would shut me down early.
Everything seemed fine and to be honest other than point of impact I couldn't tell a difference from 16 to 18.
As to stuck cases, the chamber is unsupported so it allows the case to bulge a bit without coming in contact with the chamber. That could maybe hide overpressure signs?

[buck460XVR]

I too wonder if you are gaining anything by going so far over max. I load for a .357 carbine and have found with 158gr projectiles, I gain very little, if any, velocity when using over 16.5 gr of h110/W296.

I also wonder about the validity of using standard XTP-HPs or SJHPs for hogs at velocities produced in your 77/357. 158 gr XTP-HPs are rated by Hornady only up to 1400fps. I get about 400 fps more than that from my 16.5 loads in my carbine. I use either the XTP-FPs or a heavy jacket SP intended for hunting, when using the carbine for deer. I think the heavy hide and deeper penetration one needs for hogs would demand one stay away from fragile bullets like SJHPs that are intended more for light skinned game and SD/HD.

[oldscot3]

The XTP he's using is the one designed by Hornady to go 1800 fps. It has a smaller hollow point cavity and a thicker jacket.

[black_hog_down]

These.

[T. O'Heir]

Gigantic pictures aside, 16 grains of H110 is .7 below MAX for a jacketed 158 grain rifle load. As daft as it sounds, 2 grains isn't that far over max. A different powder lot, test conditions, rifling twist and a bunch of other variables will change the max load.
A chronograph won't help or make any difference.
"...could maybe hide..." Nope. Velocities don't mean a lot as you're not using the exact same components as Hodgdon did. Pressures
"...what they really mean is..." Pistol calibres. Nothing crazier than hunting regs, anywhere. In parts of Ontario, you'd be arrested for using a .357.
Salmoneye's jug is a different powder lot than what was used by Hodgdon or anybody else. Half a grain more now gives 163 fps more velocity with a below current max load.

[jetinteriorguy]

You've already found your load. You stated that you noticed no differed from 16-18gr. Sounds like a node to me, so load in the middle at 17 and you should be good to go.

[Mobuck]

Using mixed cases, I'd be a wee bit conservative. My load using Norma cases and Speer bullets with 16.5 grains of H 110 is as hot as I'm comfortable with in a revolver.

[bfoosh006]

H110 / 296 is one of those powders that seems to reach a plateau in velocity.

You get to "X" velocity, and any extra powder is burned outside of the barrel... IE, NO or little velocity gain.

That said.... It is not safe to exceed manufacturers data.

Those same overloaded rounds.. when left in the sun, or with a bullet setback... could easily skyrocket in pressure... it is just not worth it.

If you had a pressure failure... and lost an eye or such. ( God forbid ).. you would never forgive yourself.