Protesters turn violent. What do you do?

stephen426 · September 23, 2016, 04:57 PM

The most recent protests, over the shooting of Keith Lamont Scott, have been pretty violent and resulted in a lot of property damage. This occurred in St. Louis after the shooting of Michael Brown, and again with the death of Freddie Grey. While I believe few, if any, of us would ever use lethal force to protect property, defending your family or yourself is a totally different story.

Common sense would dictate that we avoid areas of protest as much as possible, but what would you do if you were on the highway trying to get home and protesters started blocking traffic. I don't believe any of us would want to run people over or we might get blocked in by the cars in front of us.

So far, I haven't seen motorists getting attacked, but that did occur during the Rodney King riots. There was also a video where a man was savagely beaten by a group of thugs just for being white. If you were trapped in your car and protesters started smashing windows and attacking people, would you shoot the attacker. Keep in mind that there are hundred, if not thousands, of protesters and you don't know who is armed. There is also a very high probability of hitting a bystander if you miss due to the density of bodies.

I think home defense is much more cut and dry. If someone forces their way in, they are looking to get shot. Businesses may not be so cut and dry since it becomes more about protecting property. I need to go to Charlotte on business in the near future so this is much more than a "what-if " scenario for me.

themalicious0ne · September 23, 2016, 05:47 PM

The circumstances that I would even pull my gun during a scenario like this would litterally be if it was my only option.

You are far better off running. Forgetting the legalities all together, I am not sure you would even survive the encounter if you did shoot. I will not speak on the legalities but the deadly ramifications are enough for me that I would not consider it unless my life or my families life was in imminent, like backs against the wall danger.

People are attacking cops. You do not have enough ammo alone. If you shot, people would be scared and confused but if you don't think enough will be around for mere curiosity after 1 shot, after seeing a fallen compatriot, I'm pretty sure you would be swarmed.

Maybe they would run but you would be running too. I would not wait around for the police.

I worked armed security on a beat in an upscale part of town during the occupy protests. There were so many forcing their way through everything. I had a vest, baton, oc, gun, the whole works and I was scared. They were cussing and spitting at me. One came up to me and said, "you think you are the only one packing?" Lifted up his shirt and brandished a handgun. I had my hand on my hand the whole time and didn't say a word. I asked them to keep moving. End of my block, 7 suv's with riot gear police hanging off the side fly up to the intersection jump off and start running after and arresting people. They were waiting till they hit my block because it was all private property. People started running everywhere. It was impressive.

Moral of the story, people have a false sense of security in a big group of people. You also never knows what weapons people are carrying in a peaceful protest. I think if you were to do anything you would be in a lose lose scenario. I cannot possibly see a way it wouled go well for you. They kill you, massive court battle or maybe the police are right there to back you up. Hope they don't see you with a gun and shoot you though either. Best option is to run as fast as you can IMHO.

Edit: look at it from this perspective. Let's say you are part of that protest. People in the protest get rowdy and start smashing windows. You are trying to calm them down and stop the violence. All of a sudden you hear a gunshot. You look and there is a guy standing there with a gun, there is someone shot on the ground and the gunman is pointing the gun at everyone in the crowd. You don't know what happened but you are conceal carrying and someone is shot and he looks like he may shoot someone else. You could arguably shoot the gunman in self defense or defense of others. You do not want to be that gunman with confused people around.

Madball6 · September 23, 2016, 09:57 PM

If i'm in my vehicle, I remain calm as possible until glass gets broken. Then I will drive through protesters as slow as reasonable to give the opportunity for people to get out of the way. If my family is in the car I will run violent people over if I must. If hands reach into broken windows I will fire my weapon and move at faster less reasonable speeds. If my actions in protecting my family end up with me getting charged for something, I'll gladly surrender myself to authorities AFTER getting my family to a safe place.

-Madball

shootniron · September 23, 2016, 10:31 PM

Best thing to do is get away and let them violate.

Moonglum · September 23, 2016, 10:35 PM

In almost every one of these cases the media was reporting that the crowd was gathering for hours before anything happened. So if you see it coming get out of the area.

TheGunGeek · September 23, 2016, 10:42 PM

I would define these as riots, not protests. It's not accurate to say people aren't being targeted and attacked in these situations. In one video several people were saying "get whiteys" and going after cars. In another a person stepped in front of a car and was hit. Multiple rioters then pulled out guns and shot at the driver, who sped away and called the police.

Like most I would first just try and avoid the situation. If I found myself caught up in it and was faced with violence, I would use my vehicle and do what I need to in order to get away, which may include driving on the sidewalk, over medians, or unpaved areas. I used to transport assets by car, so I normally try and leave a way out, avoid being blocked in, and maintain awareness. If on foot the pistol may be the only option, and then try and get far away or barricade yourself somewhere defend-able.

At home, this exact type of situation is why I have the PS90, in case things ever get that bad. In all situations I would never cause harm unless faced with violence.

**JohnKSa** · September 24, 2016, 12:13 AM

The way to not be there when protests turn violent is to not be at protests.

Situational awareness isn't just paying attention to what's going on around you, it's also being aware of current events that might affect you. Cars have radios. Use them. I'm not saying you have to listen to the news the whole time, but it does make sense to turn it on and listen for a few minutes when you start your drive. If there's anything serious going on in your area, you'll get the message pretty quickly.

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I think home defense is much more cut and dry.

If you have the extreme misfortune to have a dwelling that ends up in the middle of a riot, get away from it if you can and figure on a no win situation if you can't. I don't know of any advice that will preserve your property and get you out of the middle of a riot safely.

Old Bill Dibble · September 24, 2016, 01:38 AM

Self-defense rules don't change any. If you have a valid fear for your life then take appropriate measures to defend yourself.

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I don't know of any advice that will preserve your property and get you out of the middle of a riot safely.

A dozen or so riflemen on your roof with clear lines of fire. But who has all that?

Snyper · September 24, 2016, 03:50 AM

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The way to not be there when protests turn violent is to not be at protests.

The ones who had their trucks hijacked and cargoes burned were driving down an Interstate highway.

The people working at Wal-Mart and staying at the Omni hotel or the NC Hyatt hotel weren't "at the protests" until the protests came to them.

Pond, James Pond · September 24, 2016, 04:03 AM

Firstly, I'd draw a distinction between a protest and a riot. When the former becomes violent, it turns into the latter. The former is a democratic right, the latter is not: it is a criminal act, no matter how valid the crowds' complaints might be.

First signs of a protest turning ugly, I'm exiting stage-left ASAP.
I'd urge any non-violent participants to do the same.

**JohnKSa** · September 24, 2016, 06:18 AM

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The ones who had their trucks hijacked and cargoes burned were driving down an Interstate highway.

To that, I would say, situational awareness isn't just paying attention to what's going on around you, it's also being aware of current events that might affect you. What's the point of going to the trouble of carrying a gun for self-defense and then blundering into a dangerous situation where the gun is unlikely to of any help? Especially when you already have the tools you need to keep informed.

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The people working at Wal-Mart and staying at the Omni hotel or the NC Hyatt hotel weren't "at the protests" until the protests came to them.

To that I would say, if you have the extreme misfortune to have a dwelling, workplace or temporary abode that ends up in the middle of a riot, get away from it if you can and figure on a no win situation if the property can't be secured somehow against a mob and you can't get away.

TheGunGeek · September 24, 2016, 12:41 PM

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A dozen or so riflemen on your roof with clear lines of fire. But who has all that?

This tactic was used successfully by business owners in the Chinatown district during the California riots. They banded together and stood on the roofs of their shops with rifles. While other areas burned they survived. I could see the same being effective in a residential scenario, however most homes have sloped verses a flat roof.

Bartholomew Roberts · September 24, 2016, 01:07 PM

A sloped roof might be even better since you could go hull down on it. Not that it would serve very well as cover though.

K_Mac · September 24, 2016, 01:08 PM

I am a big fan of situational awareness. That doesn't mean that anyone who lives, works, or travels through any metro area is not vulnerable to being caught up in a violent protest. Stopping traffic on interstate highways is a very effective way of getting a lot of attention for protestors. These actions can, and have turned violent. I am committed to avoiding these situations if possible, and am not going to stop if I have any other options.

If I find myself stopped on the interstate surrounded by violence I will do my best to protect myself and those in my charge. I am not naive enough to think it can't happen to me. I am also not going live in fear. I am far more likely to get injured or killed driving on the interstate than I am of being a victim of civil unrest.

T. O'Heir · September 24, 2016, 01:48 PM

"...need to go to Charlotte on business..." You may want to re-think that until things settle down.
"...Protesters turn violent..." Looters, you mean. What's been going on in Charlotte isn't a protest. It's criminals and other opportunistic neer-do-wells looting and pillaging.
"...maybe the police are right there to back you up..." All they'd see is a civilian with a gun. Mostly likely said civilian would be shot and/or instantly arrested.
If you're in your car, drive away.
A dozen or so untrained riflemen on your roof would be totally useless. It was the business owners in the Chinatown district who were on their own roofs. They were more of a deterrent than any kind of defence force.

zxcvbob · September 24, 2016, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:
The ones who had their trucks hijacked and cargoes burned were driving down an Interstate highway.

To that, I would say, situational awareness isn't just paying attention to what's going on around you, it's also being aware of current events that might affect you. What's the point of going to the trouble of carrying a gun for self-defense and then blundering into a dangerous situation where the gun is unlikely to of any help? Especially when you already have the tools you need to keep informed.

That's pretty cold-blooded. So the people driving cross-country on that route should have known better? Sucks to be them? Condition orange is pretty hard to maintain 24/7 every day, even when you're on vacation. I don't want to know the local politics of every burg that I might drive through.

**JohnKSa** · September 24, 2016, 02:02 PM

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That's pretty cold-blooded. So the people driving cross-country on that route should have known better?

You're missing the point. The question was: "What do you do if you find yourself in a violent protest?" The problem is that once you're in the middle of a riot, you're pretty much screwed. There's no good way to extricate yourself from it safely. If you want to defend yourself from riots, the way to do it is to stay out of them.

I don't wish for bad things to happen to people who get caught up in riots, I'm just pointing out that if that happens to you there's no easy recipe for staying safe. It's not my fault that this is a situation that doesn't lend itself to a CCW solution--that's just the way it is.

So if you want to stay safe, (1) stay away from protests in the first place so you're not there when/if they turn violent and (2)stay aware of current events so you can avoid such things.

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Condition orange is pretty hard to maintain 24/7 every day, even when you're on vacation. I don't want to know the local politics of every burg that I might drive through.

I'm not talking about condition orange or learning the details of local politics. I'm talking about something very simple. Reach out your arm and turn on your radio when you're in the car. It's already there just waiting to be used.

People already do this to avoid traffic problems which are relatively minor issues in the overall scheme of things. Maybe I'm way off base, but it seems to me that it shouldn't be that much of a hassle/strain to take advantage of this feature of your vehicle to avoid the possibility of being violently attacked.

Koda94 · September 24, 2016, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

I'm talking about something very simple. Reach out your arm and turn on your radio when you're in the car. It's already there just waiting to be used.

People already do this to avoid traffic problems which are relatively minor issues in the overall scheme of things. Maybe I'm way off base, but it seems to me that it shouldn't be that much of a hassle/strain to take advantage of this feature of your vehicle to avoid the possibility of being violently attacked.

respectfully I disagree this as unrealistic. What are the odds that the news channel you turn on is actively reporting a protest or riot? Sure you can get lucky but odds are you wont hear about it in time even if you did you may have already made that one turn down the wrong road.

yesterday a BLM protest suddenly, without warning, took to protesting downtown Portland. There was no warning and they eventually took over one of the bridges in town snarling traffic.
http://katu.com/news/local/black-liv...o-lloyd-center

I do agree that if you find yourself caught up in a protest turned violent all you can do is the best you can to get away, I don't see how being armed could make that situation worse.

**JohnKSa** · September 24, 2016, 05:52 PM

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What are the odds that the news channel you turn on is actively reporting a protest or riot?

Very good? Just a hair under 100%? If there's a riot/violent protest in your area and you tune to a local news channel on your radio and don't get any information on it, then you didn't tune to a news channel.

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...yesterday a BLM protest suddenly, without warning, took to protesting downtown Portland.

Well, it wasn't exactly "suddenly, without warning" and since it never really turned violent it certainly wasn't violent during the early stages when people were gathering and reporting on the situation might not have been prevalent.

That said, it's impossible to always avoid dangerous situations, even if one is very situationally aware. The fact that in some circumstances you might not get information in time to avoid a problem doesn't justify never even trying.

During the "suddenly, without warning" phase of a protest it's still very likely possible to get away and during the early phases of a protest its not likely to be violent. It's after dark and after people have had a chance to whip themselves up that things get nasty.

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...I don't see how being armed could make that situation worse.

It's unlikely that being armed would make the situation worse, in and of itself. It might even help in some circumstances. But it's better, by far, to simply avoid the mess in the first place. This kind of thing isn't like a crook jumping out at you from behind a dumpster to steal your wallet. It's visible from a long way off and gets lots of news coverage which makes avoiding it a much more reasonable proposition than avoiding a mugger.

Koda94 · September 24, 2016, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

Very good? Just a hair under 100%? If there's a riot/violent protest in your area and you tune to a local news channel on your radio and don't get any information on it, then you didn't tune to a news channel.

I guess I just disagree with this. I was at home yesterday when it happened and didn't even hear about it until this morning, and I did check the news last night. I'm sure it was indeed covered at some point, but I didn't surf every news channel looking for any possible potential disaster taking place. How many news channels does one need to surf, while driving, just in case there is a sudden protest taking place on their route, until they get a report? I'm all about situational awareness but its unrealistic to have the expectation that one move about their day like a soldier on point. Sure check the news, like I check the traffic too... then put some tunes on and head on your way is what most people do.

**JohnKSa** · September 24, 2016, 06:39 PM

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How many news channels does one need to surf...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

If there's anything serious going on in your area, you'll get the message pretty quickly.

In this area, if you tune to a news station on the radio and there's a big local story then you hear the big local story. News stations that don't air the news don't stay on the air very long. Maybe it's different in your area.

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Sure check the news, like I check the traffic too...

And that's exactly what I said initially.

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Originally Posted by JohnKSa

I'm not saying you have to listen to the news the whole time, but it does make sense to turn it on and listen for a few minutes when you start your drive.

If there's a reasonable potential for violent protests due to national or local current events then it might make sense to listen to the news the whole time you're driving. Especially if you're going to be out after dark and driving through an urban area.

Koda94 · September 24, 2016, 06:46 PM

ok, we agree then...

I guess I had to go full circle to see it.

I remember about a couple years ago around thanksgiving time IIRC there was the Ferguson protests destroying their city and copycat protests happening elsewhere and I was driving home from out of state with my family... we have to go thru downtown to get home, and yes I was glued to the news. I see what your saying.

Glenn E. Meyer · September 24, 2016, 06:55 PM

Here's a good read:

http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...n-your-vehicle

Koda94 · September 24, 2016, 07:00 PM

thats a good quick read Glen, thank you for sharing...

K_Mac · September 24, 2016, 07:03 PM

Glenn the suggestion of lowering the windows slightly is a new one for me. Thanks for the link.

September 23, 2016, 04:57 PM	#1
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,841	Protesters turn violent. What do you do? The most recent protests, over the shooting of Keith Lamont Scott, have been pretty violent and resulted in a lot of property damage. This occurred in St. Louis after the shooting of Michael Brown, and again with the death of Freddie Grey. While I believe few, if any, of us would ever use lethal force to protect property, defending your family or yourself is a totally different story. Common sense would dictate that we avoid areas of protest as much as possible, but what would you do if you were on the highway trying to get home and protesters started blocking traffic. I don't believe any of us would want to run people over or we might get blocked in by the cars in front of us. So far, I haven't seen motorists getting attacked, but that did occur during the Rodney King riots. There was also a video where a man was savagely beaten by a group of thugs just for being white. If you were trapped in your car and protesters started smashing windows and attacking people, would you shoot the attacker. Keep in mind that there are hundred, if not thousands, of protesters and you don't know who is armed. There is also a very high probability of hitting a bystander if you miss due to the density of bodies. I think home defense is much more cut and dry. If someone forces their way in, they are looking to get shot. Businesses may not be so cut and dry since it becomes more about protecting property. I need to go to Charlotte on business in the near future so this is much more than a "what-if " scenario for me. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

September 23, 2016, 05:47 PM	#2
themalicious0ne Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2012 Location: Oconomowoc, WI Posts: 345	The circumstances that I would even pull my gun during a scenario like this would litterally be if it was my only option. You are far better off running. Forgetting the legalities all together, I am not sure you would even survive the encounter if you did shoot. I will not speak on the legalities but the deadly ramifications are enough for me that I would not consider it unless my life or my families life was in imminent, like backs against the wall danger. People are attacking cops. You do not have enough ammo alone. If you shot, people would be scared and confused but if you don't think enough will be around for mere curiosity after 1 shot, after seeing a fallen compatriot, I'm pretty sure you would be swarmed. Maybe they would run but you would be running too. I would not wait around for the police. I worked armed security on a beat in an upscale part of town during the occupy protests. There were so many forcing their way through everything. I had a vest, baton, oc, gun, the whole works and I was scared. They were cussing and spitting at me. One came up to me and said, "you think you are the only one packing?" Lifted up his shirt and brandished a handgun. I had my hand on my hand the whole time and didn't say a word. I asked them to keep moving. End of my block, 7 suv's with riot gear police hanging off the side fly up to the intersection jump off and start running after and arresting people. They were waiting till they hit my block because it was all private property. People started running everywhere. It was impressive. Moral of the story, people have a false sense of security in a big group of people. You also never knows what weapons people are carrying in a peaceful protest. I think if you were to do anything you would be in a lose lose scenario. I cannot possibly see a way it wouled go well for you. They kill you, massive court battle or maybe the police are right there to back you up. Hope they don't see you with a gun and shoot you though either. Best option is to run as fast as you can IMHO. Edit: look at it from this perspective. Let's say you are part of that protest. People in the protest get rowdy and start smashing windows. You are trying to calm them down and stop the violence. All of a sudden you hear a gunshot. You look and there is a guy standing there with a gun, there is someone shot on the ground and the gunman is pointing the gun at everyone in the crowd. You don't know what happened but you are conceal carrying and someone is shot and he looks like he may shoot someone else. You could arguably shoot the gunman in self defense or defense of others. You do not want to be that gunman with confused people around. Last edited by themalicious0ne; September 23, 2016 at 05:57 PM.

September 23, 2016, 10:35 PM	#5
Moonglum Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2015 Posts: 468	In almost every one of these cases the media was reporting that the crowd was gathering for hours before anything happened. So if you see it coming get out of the area. __________________ Skating On Thin Ice

September 23, 2016, 10:42 PM	#6
TheGunGeek Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2016 Location: Florida Posts: 182	I would define these as riots, not protests. It's not accurate to say people aren't being targeted and attacked in these situations. In one video several people were saying "get whiteys" and going after cars. In another a person stepped in front of a car and was hit. Multiple rioters then pulled out guns and shot at the driver, who sped away and called the police. Like most I would first just try and avoid the situation. If I found myself caught up in it and was faced with violence, I would use my vehicle and do what I need to in order to get away, which may include driving on the sidewalk, over medians, or unpaved areas. I used to transport assets by car, so I normally try and leave a way out, avoid being blocked in, and maintain awareness. If on foot the pistol may be the only option, and then try and get far away or barricade yourself somewhere defend-able. At home, this exact type of situation is why I have the PS90, in case things ever get that bad. In all situations I would never cause harm unless faced with violence. Last edited by TheGunGeek; September 23, 2016 at 11:18 PM.

September 24, 2016, 06:46 PM	#22
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,296	ok, we agree then... I guess I had to go full circle to see it. I remember about a couple years ago around thanksgiving time IIRC there was the Ferguson protests destroying their city and copycat protests happening elsewhere and I was driving home from out of state with my family... we have to go thru downtown to get home, and yes I was glued to the news. I see what your saying. __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

September 23, 2016, 09:57 PM	#3
Madball6 Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2011 Posts: 211	If i'm in my vehicle, I remain calm as possible until glass gets broken. Then I will drive through protesters as slow as reasonable to give the opportunity for people to get out of the way. If my family is in the car I will run violent people over if I must. If hands reach into broken windows I will fire my weapon and move at faster less reasonable speeds. If my actions in protecting my family end up with me getting charged for something, I'll gladly surrender myself to authorities AFTER getting my family to a safe place. -Madball

September 23, 2016, 10:31 PM	#4
shootniron Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2011 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,599	Best thing to do is get away and let them violate.

September 24, 2016, 04:03 AM	#10
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Firstly, I'd draw a distinction between a protest and a riot. When the former becomes violent, it turns into the latter. The former is a democratic right, the latter is not: it is a criminal act, no matter how valid the crowds' complaints might be. First signs of a protest turning ugly, I'm exiting stage-left ASAP. I'd urge any non-violent participants to do the same.

September 24, 2016, 01:07 PM	#13
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	A sloped roof might be even better since you could go hull down on it. Not that it would serve very well as cover though.

September 24, 2016, 01:08 PM	#14
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	I am a big fan of situational awareness. That doesn't mean that anyone who lives, works, or travels through any metro area is not vulnerable to being caught up in a violent protest. Stopping traffic on interstate highways is a very effective way of getting a lot of attention for protestors. These actions can, and have turned violent. I am committed to avoiding these situations if possible, and am not going to stop if I have any other options. If I find myself stopped on the interstate surrounded by violence I will do my best to protect myself and those in my charge. I am not naive enough to think it can't happen to me. I am also not going live in fear. I am far more likely to get injured or killed driving on the interstate than I am of being a victim of civil unrest.

September 24, 2016, 01:48 PM	#15
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...need to go to Charlotte on business..." You may want to re-think that until things settle down. "...Protesters turn violent..." Looters, you mean. What's been going on in Charlotte isn't a protest. It's criminals and other opportunistic neer-do-wells looting and pillaging. "...maybe the police are right there to back you up..." All they'd see is a civilian with a gun. Mostly likely said civilian would be shot and/or instantly arrested. If you're in your car, drive away. A dozen or so untrained riflemen on your roof would be totally useless. It was the business owners in the Chinatown district who were on their own roofs. They were more of a deterrent than any kind of defence force.

September 24, 2016, 06:55 PM	#23
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Here's a good read: http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...n-your-vehicle __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

September 24, 2016, 07:00 PM	#24
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,296	thats a good quick read Glen, thank you for sharing... __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

September 24, 2016, 07:03 PM	#25
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	Glenn the suggestion of lowering the windows slightly is a new one for me. Thanks for the link.