First Ever CCI Primer Failure

JeepHammer · February 18, 2016, 10:04 AM

Got some new primers a couple of weeks ago, loaded some 9mm ammo,
Got my first EVER CCI primer failure.
Solid hit from the firing pin, NOTHING, Let the round sit for a week, pulled the bullet and the primer anvil is punched, but nothing.

Used a universal decapping die to punch the primer out of the case, primer material in the cup, case contacted the anvil, still nothing,
So I laid a little flame to the primer, it went off with the usual 'Pop'.

Loaded about 500 of these rounds out of this brick, but no more duds so far...

9x45 · February 18, 2016, 10:28 AM

Most primer failures are due to seating them high. My experience is running over 100K of CCI's without issue, OEM Glocks. What loader are you using, and what head stamp case failed?

JeepHammer · February 18, 2016, 11:02 AM

Winchester case, CFE Pistol powder (5.5 Grains), 147 Grain Hollow point,
The primer was seated, and got a SOLID strike.
All other of the about 300 rounds in mixed cases all fired fine.

Having some stove pipe issues with the CFE Pistol in 4 or 5 different handguns,
Baretta 92 (2 each) Browning HP that has never failed firing anything before still stovepipes... And it's what the primer failed in.

I have to admit, I don't gauge the primer pockets in blasting ammo, but the primer pocket is still within specification after the primer was punched out...

The press is a Lee Load Master. Not exactly the most accurate at setting primer depth or preload, but I'm about 500 rounds into a brick of primers and not had a primer failure until this point.
I can't recommend a Load Master, too much fiddling around and keeping it in adjustment & running is a REAL pain in the butt.
Thought I'd try one, wish I'd have just got another Dillon Square Deal and got it over with...

9x45 · February 18, 2016, 11:08 AM

Dillons are used by over 95% of USPSA competition shooters. I've had my 550 since the beginning and have over 16 years on a Square Deal.

Tsquared · February 18, 2016, 11:10 AM

Quote:

I can't recommend a Load Master, too much fiddling around and keeping it in adjustment & running is a REAL pain in the butt.
Thought I'd try one, wish I'd have just got another Dillon Square Deal and got it over with...

Most of the used loading equipment I have seen is Lee. Every other brand tends to be bought up very quickly or people don't want to get rid of it. Other than their dies anything I have bought that was a Lee product required constant adjustment or did a marginal job at best.

hartcreek · February 20, 2016, 01:22 AM

I am looking very seriously at the Lee Load Master and can not see where there would be problems to someone with good mechanical skills. It seems that there is a new tray out for the priming system too that makes it way better.

Your one primer could simply have been one bad primer or some crud in your gun shifting just at the wrong time.

Slamfire · February 20, 2016, 11:22 AM

Primers are one of the least understood items in anyone's reloading kit. Shooters are amazingly ignorant of the things, even though in threads like this one, posters claim how knowledgeable they are, but they are nothing but confident idiots about the things.

Firing pin strike
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=primer+offset

This was written by a CCI employee and it totally confounds a number of the schizophrenic ideas floating around in the shooting community. Once of those schizophrenic ideas is that "high primers" cause slamfires. High primers are in fact, about the least likely cause of slamfires.

I recommend reading

Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01...motaip_200909/

As the article states, high primers are the most likely cause of misfires! A couple of conditions have to be met for a primer to ignite. The first is that the anvil has to be firmly seated. If the anvil is dangling in the air, the primer will not go bang. Often you read posts where the reloader is able to make the primer ignite a second time by recocking. What has happened is that the first firing pin strike has seated the primer, set the gap, and the primer goes off when hit again. The second condition is that the gap between primer cake and anvil have to be set. If the primer is pushed too hard, I am of the opinion that the anvil can crack the primer cake.

So, lets say your primer is high and your firing pin struck it. You could have cracked the primer cake without the primer igniting. You also could have cracked the primer cake from an off center firing pin hit, which was the discourse that produced so much of the angry ignorance in the referenced post. Off center firing pin hits increase the chance of a misfire, and the further the firing pin hit is from center, the more the misfires increase. At some off center distance, the primer will not ignite, again something not acknowledged by the confident idiots in the angry ignorance thread. If the primer cake cracks due to off center hits, the primer will dud out and not ignite no matter how many times the thing is hit with the firing pin.

Lets say the primer cake cracked, well it still is the combustible compound that it ever was, and if you apply heat, it will go off.

I have had primers misfire due to weak firing pin hits. In a different mechanism, some have gone off, others have not. I assume the primer cake was cracked on the first, weak, hit.

Something else, I have had dud primers from all brands and types. At least I cannot think of a primer brand and type where I have not had at least one dud primer. I don't know if it was my fault, due to improper seating, like seating too hard, or too soft, or if the primer was a dud from the factory. Now that I think of it, I have had factory ammunition that would not ignite, particularly rimfire ammunition. So, bad things happen.

reynolds357 · February 20, 2016, 10:29 PM

It happens in all manufacturers. I read somewhere that American made primers average a 1 in 200,000 failure rate.

THRASH · February 26, 2016, 11:49 PM

"Dillons are used by over 95% of USPSA competition shooters. I've had my 550 since the beginning and have over 16 years on a Square Deal."

9x45, Just wondering if you can b/u the stat for this? So what are those top 5% using? Thanks.

JeepHammer · February 27, 2016, 11:05 AM

i see competition shooters/clubs using Dillon all the time, usually with other presses bolted to the bench getting no love.
i also see Dillon neglected once they get a Camdex machine...

Camdex loaders are running over $40,000 and have a two year waiting list right now, I just checked into one...
They are so far behind in rifle case prep machines they won't even take deposits.

I don't know what EXACTLY this has to do with CCI primers...

Just for the record, I had three small pistol primers fails out of the same 5,000 lot,
And I've had my first ever small rifle primer failure.
Loaded both on Dillon 650 (rifle) and both the Dillon 650 & Lee Load Master on the pistol rounds, fired in different firearms.

Firing pin strike good in all cases, exactly what you would expect and imprint well deeper than 'Minimum' but not reaching 'Maximum' in any of the cases.
(I keep up on that stuff)

Just saying, I've never had issues with CCI primers before, not one time in 35 years, then 5 such events with the last batch of primers.
Don't know the cause, can't see anything, even with digital calipers and gauges, wrong with the firearms or primers when disassembled for failure analysis, they simply didn't function.

RC20 · February 27, 2016, 02:10 PM

What is being said in regards to the failure is that a slightly high primer will move forward when the pin hits it, the dent winds up being deep enough, but the primer gives (or can) as the pin hits it and the impact is dissipated.

Additional strikes to nothing as they hit the same indented spot.

With that many failures, I would consider the priming process.

I prefer the RDBS universal hand priming tool (just because I don't have to change the head and it works extremely well). I never like the bench priming system or the ones on the press.

You can feel the primer when it bottoms out.

while I don't think you have that problem a dirty primer pocket and also cause this issue as primer not seated deep enough.

its amazing how subtle it can be between a firing and no firing let alone how over the range of primer , care and loadings we don't have a lot more mis fires.

My brother fought one for years on his rifle and finally between him and the gunsmith while talking (mostly him) a burr was discovered and a tiny bit of clean up and it was reliable again. Cartridge rep said the number of failure he was having was statistically normal (I don't know I have even had one that did not go off)

February 18, 2016, 10:04 AM	#1
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	First Ever CCI Primer Failure Got some new primers a couple of weeks ago, loaded some 9mm ammo, Got my first EVER CCI primer failure. Solid hit from the firing pin, NOTHING, Let the round sit for a week, pulled the bullet and the primer anvil is punched, but nothing. Used a universal decapping die to punch the primer out of the case, primer material in the cup, case contacted the anvil, still nothing, So I laid a little flame to the primer, it went off with the usual 'Pop'. Loaded about 500 of these rounds out of this brick, but no more duds so far...

February 20, 2016, 11:22 AM	#7
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	Primers are one of the least understood items in anyone's reloading kit. Shooters are amazingly ignorant of the things, even though in threads like this one, posters claim how knowledgeable they are, but they are nothing but confident idiots about the things. Firing pin strike http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=primer+offset This was written by a CCI employee and it totally confounds a number of the schizophrenic ideas floating around in the shooting community. Once of those schizophrenic ideas is that "high primers" cause slamfires. High primers are in fact, about the least likely cause of slamfires. I recommend reading Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01...motaip_200909/ As the article states, high primers are the most likely cause of misfires! A couple of conditions have to be met for a primer to ignite. The first is that the anvil has to be firmly seated. If the anvil is dangling in the air, the primer will not go bang. Often you read posts where the reloader is able to make the primer ignite a second time by recocking. What has happened is that the first firing pin strike has seated the primer, set the gap, and the primer goes off when hit again. The second condition is that the gap between primer cake and anvil have to be set. If the primer is pushed too hard, I am of the opinion that the anvil can crack the primer cake. So, lets say your primer is high and your firing pin struck it. You could have cracked the primer cake without the primer igniting. You also could have cracked the primer cake from an off center firing pin hit, which was the discourse that produced so much of the angry ignorance in the referenced post. Off center firing pin hits increase the chance of a misfire, and the further the firing pin hit is from center, the more the misfires increase. At some off center distance, the primer will not ignite, again something not acknowledged by the confident idiots in the angry ignorance thread. If the primer cake cracks due to off center hits, the primer will dud out and not ignite no matter how many times the thing is hit with the firing pin. Lets say the primer cake cracked, well it still is the combustible compound that it ever was, and if you apply heat, it will go off. I have had primers misfire due to weak firing pin hits. In a different mechanism, some have gone off, others have not. I assume the primer cake was cracked on the first, weak, hit. Something else, I have had dud primers from all brands and types. At least I cannot think of a primer brand and type where I have not had at least one dud primer. I don't know if it was my fault, due to improper seating, like seating too hard, or too soft, or if the primer was a dud from the factory. Now that I think of it, I have had factory ammunition that would not ignite, particularly rimfire ammunition. So, bad things happen. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

February 18, 2016, 10:28 AM	#2
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Most primer failures are due to seating them high. My experience is running over 100K of CCI's without issue, OEM Glocks. What loader are you using, and what head stamp case failed?

February 18, 2016, 11:02 AM	#3
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Winchester case, CFE Pistol powder (5.5 Grains), 147 Grain Hollow point, The primer was seated, and got a SOLID strike. All other of the about 300 rounds in mixed cases all fired fine. Having some stove pipe issues with the CFE Pistol in 4 or 5 different handguns, Baretta 92 (2 each) Browning HP that has never failed firing anything before still stovepipes... And it's what the primer failed in. I have to admit, I don't gauge the primer pockets in blasting ammo, but the primer pocket is still within specification after the primer was punched out... The press is a Lee Load Master. Not exactly the most accurate at setting primer depth or preload, but I'm about 500 rounds into a brick of primers and not had a primer failure until this point. I can't recommend a Load Master, too much fiddling around and keeping it in adjustment & running is a REAL pain in the butt. Thought I'd try one, wish I'd have just got another Dillon Square Deal and got it over with...

February 18, 2016, 11:08 AM	#4
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Dillons are used by over 95% of USPSA competition shooters. I've had my 550 since the beginning and have over 16 years on a Square Deal.

February 20, 2016, 01:22 AM	#6
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	I am looking very seriously at the Lee Load Master and can not see where there would be problems to someone with good mechanical skills. It seems that there is a new tray out for the priming system too that makes it way better. Your one primer could simply have been one bad primer or some crud in your gun shifting just at the wrong time.

February 20, 2016, 10:29 PM	#8
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	It happens in all manufacturers. I read somewhere that American made primers average a 1 in 200,000 failure rate.

February 26, 2016, 11:49 PM	#9
THRASH Member Join Date: February 13, 2016 Posts: 20	"Dillons are used by over 95% of USPSA competition shooters. I've had my 550 since the beginning and have over 16 years on a Square Deal." 9x45, Just wondering if you can b/u the stat for this? So what are those top 5% using? Thanks.

February 27, 2016, 11:05 AM	#10
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	i see competition shooters/clubs using Dillon all the time, usually with other presses bolted to the bench getting no love. i also see Dillon neglected once they get a Camdex machine... Camdex loaders are running over $40,000 and have a two year waiting list right now, I just checked into one... They are so far behind in rifle case prep machines they won't even take deposits. I don't know what EXACTLY this has to do with CCI primers... Just for the record, I had three small pistol primers fails out of the same 5,000 lot, And I've had my first ever small rifle primer failure. Loaded both on Dillon 650 (rifle) and both the Dillon 650 & Lee Load Master on the pistol rounds, fired in different firearms. Firing pin strike good in all cases, exactly what you would expect and imprint well deeper than 'Minimum' but not reaching 'Maximum' in any of the cases. (I keep up on that stuff) Just saying, I've never had issues with CCI primers before, not one time in 35 years, then 5 such events with the last batch of primers. Don't know the cause, can't see anything, even with digital calipers and gauges, wrong with the firearms or primers when disassembled for failure analysis, they simply didn't function.

February 27, 2016, 02:10 PM	#11
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	What is being said in regards to the failure is that a slightly high primer will move forward when the pin hits it, the dent winds up being deep enough, but the primer gives (or can) as the pin hits it and the impact is dissipated. Additional strikes to nothing as they hit the same indented spot. With that many failures, I would consider the priming process. I prefer the RDBS universal hand priming tool (just because I don't have to change the head and it works extremely well). I never like the bench priming system or the ones on the press. You can feel the primer when it bottoms out. while I don't think you have that problem a dirty primer pocket and also cause this issue as primer not seated deep enough. its amazing how subtle it can be between a firing and no firing let alone how over the range of primer , care and loadings we don't have a lot more mis fires. My brother fought one for years on his rifle and finally between him and the gunsmith while talking (mostly him) a burr was discovered and a tiny bit of clean up and it was reliable again. Cartridge rep said the number of failure he was having was statistically normal (I don't know I have even had one that did not go off)