Load development question

Colten519 · January 30, 2016, 09:23 PM

Hey guys I was at a ammo supply place by me today that sells lots of reloading supplies. I was talking to the guy and telling him what bullets I was going to use (100 gr Barnes ttsx) and he told me to make it a little cheaper that I should develop a load with similar cheap bullets until I find the sweet spot and then load the Barnes and just fine tune? Anybody do this? Any advice?

Thanks

condor bravo · January 30, 2016, 10:04 PM

If you are determined that you will end up with the 100 gr Barnes, come what may and just nothing else will do, I would start with and continue to completion with the Barnes. Assuming, of course, that the cost of the Barnes wouldn't make the venture prohibitive. Have never heard of that alternate method worded that way. I think most would go with whatever works out the best for the intended purpose even if not the original bullet of choice. But unique that the sales person would make that suggestion.

RaySendero · January 30, 2016, 10:36 PM

Yea, It can be done - I've done it twice:

1st with my 9.3x62. The bullet I eventually wanted to use was 286 NPT at $1.06 each. Did most of my reload work-ups with 285 PP at 27¢ ea.

2nd with my 458WM. The bullet I was most interested in was 400 Swift-A at $1.48 each. Did most of my reload work-ups with 405 Rem 25¢ ea.

Work great for the 9.3 - When thru 5 diff powders and just sub-ed the NPT did 2 more COALs with it and wal-la.

Worked OK for the 458 - Was fun shooting a lot with a 25¢ 458 reload. But ended up not using the 400 Swift-A.

**Unclenick** · January 30, 2016, 10:50 PM

Note that the bullet construction must be similar. If you are using a Barnes solid, then see if there is a less expensive similar solid (perhaps the Hornady GMX?). But if you work up a load with a same-weight cup and core construction bullet, it won't have the same start pressure, so it won't give you the same barrel time or load pressures with the same powder charge and primer. Note that the ogive shape should be similar as well.

jmr40 · January 30, 2016, 10:51 PM

If you were to buy 200 Barnes bullets they would cost you about $60 more than 200 cheap bullets. About the same cost as a tank of gas for my truck. Maybe a tank and 1/4 at todays gas prices.

The 200 Barnes bullets would allow me to work up a load, get my rifle zeroed and allow enough practice and hunting for at least 3-4 years. With all the other expenses involved with hunting an extra $60 every 3-4 years is nothing.

I use cheaper bullets for plinking at the range, save the expensive stuff for actual hunting.

Copper bullets are so much different than conventional bullets that the load data from the cheaper bullets will be far different than the copper anyway. You'd almost be starting over anyway.

It is possible to work up a load with cheaper bullets that will have almost the same trajectory. In 30 caliber the 150 gr Hornady SST's can be loaded to the same speeds and they have virtually the same BC as 150 gr TTSX's. But the load data is far different. I had to work up 2 different loads anyway. But since they shoot to the same points, and with similar accuracy the SST's are a cheaper practice round.

Jim243 · January 30, 2016, 11:06 PM

It always seemed like good advice that "you always go home with the one that you brought to the dance." It was good advice for dating women and sounds good for developing loads as well. (fewer problems in the long run.)

Stay safe.
Jim

Colten519 · January 30, 2016, 11:21 PM

Thanks a lot as always guys

USMC 77-81 · January 31, 2016, 01:07 AM

I think using a cheaper bullet of the same weight will get you close enough when then switching to the bullet of your choice to quickly get a load developed for the more expensive bullet. Another advantage is that you will have developed a less expensive load for general practice there by allowing more practice for your mechanics and form.

1st Marine division, 3rd Marines

Tsquared · January 31, 2016, 11:41 AM

I have my pet loads for specific bullets. My source for target 45 dried up last year and I have been trying different manufacturers offerings. I just got in some new target bullets and I am using my previous loads as a start but I will still work up the load and test it with my chrono. I do reduce my window but I have found a slight increase or decrease in the powder load can sometimes make a huge difference.

**Unclenick** · January 31, 2016, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMC 77-81

I think using a cheaper bullet of the same weight will get you close enough when then switching to the bullet of your choice to quickly get a load developed for the more expensive bullet.

As Allan Jones (former CCI employee) explains in this article, forty years ago that was still good advice:

Quote:

"…today’s handloader must not think, “Bullets are bullets.” Technology and progress have taken that option from us."

Allan Jones in Shooting Times, Jan 4, 2011

Today's bullets are just too different across the range of selections for weight alone to be an adequate criterion for charge weight. You could work up a same-weight load with a cup and core bullet and guess that the Barnes would probably use about 2% less powder, but that's just from the standpoint of obtaining the same peak pressure. Because the copper solid produces higher start pressure, the peak will occur with less expansion, earlier in the bullet travel, and that changes the barrel time, which is what determines whether or not you will land on an accuracy sweet spot. As a result, you'd basically have to optimize charge weight and seating depth for accuracy all over again.

condor bravo · January 31, 2016, 03:39 PM

jim243
I like your take to the dance expression. That is the same thing I was trying to say but I didn't do it quite as eloquently.

January 30, 2016, 09:23 PM	#1
Colten519 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2016 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 115	Load development question Hey guys I was at a ammo supply place by me today that sells lots of reloading supplies. I was talking to the guy and telling him what bullets I was going to use (100 gr Barnes ttsx) and he told me to make it a little cheaper that I should develop a load with similar cheap bullets until I find the sweet spot and then load the Barnes and just fine tune? Anybody do this? Any advice? Thanks

January 30, 2016, 10:50 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,131	Note that the bullet construction must be similar. If you are using a Barnes solid, then see if there is a less expensive similar solid (perhaps the Hornady GMX?). But if you work up a load with a same-weight cup and core construction bullet, it won't have the same start pressure, so it won't give you the same barrel time or load pressures with the same powder charge and primer. Note that the ogive shape should be similar as well. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; January 31, 2016 at 02:49 PM. Reason: typo fix

January 30, 2016, 11:06 PM	#6
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	It always seemed like good advice that "you always go home with the one that you brought to the dance." It was good advice for dating women and sounds good for developing loads as well. (fewer problems in the long run.) Stay safe. Jim Last edited by Jim243; January 30, 2016 at 11:12 PM.

January 31, 2016, 03:39 PM	#11
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Take to the dance expression jim243 I like your take to the dance expression. That is the same thing I was trying to say but I didn't do it quite as eloquently.

January 30, 2016, 10:04 PM	#2
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	If you are determined that you will end up with the 100 gr Barnes, come what may and just nothing else will do, I would start with and continue to completion with the Barnes. Assuming, of course, that the cost of the Barnes wouldn't make the venture prohibitive. Have never heard of that alternate method worded that way. I think most would go with whatever works out the best for the intended purpose even if not the original bullet of choice. But unique that the sales person would make that suggestion.

January 30, 2016, 10:36 PM	#3
RaySendero Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2010 Location: US South Posts: 857	Yea, It can be done - I've done it twice: 1st with my 9.3x62. The bullet I eventually wanted to use was 286 NPT at $1.06 each. Did most of my reload work-ups with 285 PP at 27¢ ea. 2nd with my 458WM. The bullet I was most interested in was 400 Swift-A at $1.48 each. Did most of my reload work-ups with 405 Rem 25¢ ea. Work great for the 9.3 - When thru 5 diff powders and just sub-ed the NPT did 2 more COALs with it and wal-la. Worked OK for the 458 - Was fun shooting a lot with a 25¢ 458 reload. But ended up not using the 400 Swift-A.

January 30, 2016, 10:51 PM	#5
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,835	If you were to buy 200 Barnes bullets they would cost you about $60 more than 200 cheap bullets. About the same cost as a tank of gas for my truck. Maybe a tank and 1/4 at todays gas prices. The 200 Barnes bullets would allow me to work up a load, get my rifle zeroed and allow enough practice and hunting for at least 3-4 years. With all the other expenses involved with hunting an extra $60 every 3-4 years is nothing. I use cheaper bullets for plinking at the range, save the expensive stuff for actual hunting. Copper bullets are so much different than conventional bullets that the load data from the cheaper bullets will be far different than the copper anyway. You'd almost be starting over anyway. It is possible to work up a load with cheaper bullets that will have almost the same trajectory. In 30 caliber the 150 gr Hornady SST's can be loaded to the same speeds and they have virtually the same BC as 150 gr TTSX's. But the load data is far different. I had to work up 2 different loads anyway. But since they shoot to the same points, and with similar accuracy the SST's are a cheaper practice round.

January 30, 2016, 11:21 PM	#7
Colten519 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2016 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 115	Thanks a lot as always guys

January 31, 2016, 01:07 AM	#8
USMC 77-81 Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2012 Location: Northern Idaho Posts: 254	I think using a cheaper bullet of the same weight will get you close enough when then switching to the bullet of your choice to quickly get a load developed for the more expensive bullet. Another advantage is that you will have developed a less expensive load for general practice there by allowing more practice for your mechanics and form. 1st Marine division, 3rd Marines

January 31, 2016, 11:41 AM	#9
Tsquared Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2016 Location: NE Atlanta Posts: 337	I have my pet loads for specific bullets. My source for target 45 dried up last year and I have been trying different manufacturers offerings. I just got in some new target bullets and I am using my previous loads as a start but I will still work up the load and test it with my chrono. I do reduce my window but I have found a slight increase or decrease in the powder load can sometimes make a huge difference.