Berry's plated DEWC loading

Real Gun · January 15, 2016, 07:00 AM

Test fired my chosen load for the 148 gr plated DEWC from Berry's. I took the load from Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook. It seems the loads must be extrapolated from those for lead bullets.

The problem with these bullets is that with the extraordinary bearing surface of the DEWC and the galling that occurs with raw copper against a steel barrel one must use a serious load to avoid sticking a bullet in a barrel.

I have experience with sticking one of these in a barrel, when the load was not light, as much as the insertion and COL was not correct. I was new to the thing about seating bullets flush with the case mouth. This time the bullets are lightly roll crimped right at the radius of the bullet nose. They are almost flush with the case mouth and are right at the COL listed for the load in lead.

I used 4.0 gr of HP-38. The target showed perfect holes with no evidence of keyholing. The rounds were easy enough to shoot in my Ruger Service Six with 4" barrel.

I wouldn't recommend seeking a soft shooting load with this bullet. Better to use lead.

JT-AR-MG42 · January 15, 2016, 07:20 AM

I appreciate the tip.
Had thought of trying, but think I'll stay with lead.
Thinking it through, what you make say makes sense on the long bearing surface.

I've always taper crimped (lightly) lead .38 DE and HBWC target loadings anyway, as I
do not have a Smith or a Colt .38 semi.

In addition, I only taper crimp any of my plated loads.
Never have had setback, including in a 94 marlin .44 with full throttle 240s.

JT

Real Gun · January 15, 2016, 07:40 AM

I don't think taper crimp is an issue with these bullets. Full insertion is recommended, which presents a perfect point for a roll crimp. The bullets are certainly not going anywhere, so the roll crimp probably only serves to take the case mouth edge off the cartridge.

I have pulled a few of these bullets with a inertial puller, and it took several serious raps to get the bullet even started. These provide a very different experience than plain lead.

I noted from other forum posts that one should not depend upon HBWC loads for DEWC, since the pressure would be higher with DEWC and the resulting reduction in case volume.

Grizz12 · January 15, 2016, 09:15 AM

I used to load HBWC's upside-down and shoot into jugs of water or the cheapest carbonated drink in a can, I could find, they REALLY expand nicely

Real Gun · January 15, 2016, 11:33 AM

Cool, but lead HBWC is its own topic.

Hammerhead · January 15, 2016, 03:43 PM

I stuck a plated 148 DEWC in my revolver too. I used 357 brass and a starting charge of 7625, and I lengthened the OAL a bit, that's where I went wrong.
Now I use 5 grains of Unique to make sure they get out of my barrel.
Great bullets, highly accurate, but like Real Gun says, not a good choice for the lightest loads.

Nick_C_S · January 15, 2016, 08:02 PM

This thread is an excellent example of why I absolutely cringe when the subject of plated load data comes up, and somebody posts "load plated bullets with lead data."

No you don't.

Granted, in most cases, it's not an issue. But it can be. For some reason, there seems to be this fear fixation with over-driving plated bullets, all while ignoring the real and bigger potential problem of under-driving them and sticking them in the barrel.

I load and shoot more 148 DEWC's - both lead and plated - than any other. I have a lot of experience with this. I have gotten my plated 148's (I prefer Rainier over Berry's because they cut a sharper hole. They are otherwise very similar.) down to about 730 f/s for IDPA Power Factor competition. But I created these recipes (with several different powders) as a load work down, not a work up. I started with lead recipes that run about 800 f/s, then load that charge under a plated slug as the starting point. BTW, that charge is usually pretty close because there is a considerable velocity drop just by switching from lead to plated.

As a side note, I seat my plated DEWC's to the same OAL as lead DEWC's (which are seated in the crimp groove). I don't seat them flush. I use these in competition, and flush seated bullets don't speedload well.

And as another side note, I strongly recommend using a taper crimp die if one plans on loading any quantity of plated bullets. Not only that, but lead DEWC's do quite well being taper crimped too. The light loading and long bearing surface of the slug makes roll crimping unnecessary. Taper crimping preserves the brass.

Real Gun · January 16, 2016, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Nick_C_S This thread is an excellent example of why I absolutely cringe when the subject of plated load data comes up, and somebody posts "load plated bullets with lead data."

No you don't.

No one wrote that. It is a strawman.

And then you go on to explain how you arrived at a load based upon lead data. The problem is the bullet shape, which is nominally a lead slug.

Quote:

Granted, in most cases, it's not an issue. But it can be. For some reason, there seems to be this fear fixation with over-driving plated bullets, all while ignoring the real and bigger potential problem of under-driving them and sticking them in the barrel.

I don't see that fear reflected here. This type of bullet is typically used for target, which usually calls for minimum recoil.

Quote:

I load and shoot more 148 DEWC's - both lead and plated - than any other. I have a lot of experience with this. I have gotten my plated 148's (I prefer Rainier over Berry's because they cut a sharper hole. They are otherwise very similar.) down to about 730 f/s for IDPA Power Factor competition. But I created these recipes (with several different powders) as a load work down, not a work up. I started with lead recipes that run about 800 f/s, then load that charge under a plated slug as the starting point. BTW, that charge is usually pretty close because there is a considerable velocity drop just by switching from lead to plated.

Describes pretty closely what I did, all very carefully considered after having the stuck bullet experience when the bullets were not seated deep enough.

Quote:

As a side note, I seat my plated DEWC's to the same OAL as lead DEWC's (which are seated in the crimp groove). I don't seat them flush. I use these in competition, and flush seated bullets don't speedload well.

What crimp groove? Is that another reason you use other than Berry's?

Quote:

And as another side note, I strongly recommend using a taper crimp die if one plans on loading any quantity of plated bullets. Not only that, but lead DEWC's do quite well being taper crimped too. The light loading and long bearing surface of the slug makes roll crimping unnecessary. Taper crimping preserves the brass.

That is only useful in the context of your preference for not seating flush. Otherwise, the roll crimp is ideal, although not useful beyond shaping the case mouth.

wpsdlrg · January 16, 2016, 01:29 PM

I've never had "galling" problems, or copper deposition for that matter, with the Berry's DEWC's myself. I've shot a couple of thousand of them. I just load them the same as my other 38 spl. loads - 3.5 grains of Bullseye or Titegroup for a normal load and 3.2 for a light target load. Usually 3.8 grains of HP-38, when I use that powder.

Never had a problem of any kind with these bullets.

Oh and I always use a taper crimp, instead of a roll crimp, on ANY bullets lacking a crimp groove.

Real Gun · January 16, 2016, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Never had a problem of any kind with these bullets.

Well then, be forewarned about loading too light or not seating deep enough.

TimSr · January 19, 2016, 08:57 AM

Quote:

This thread is an excellent example of why I absolutely cringe when the subject of plated load data comes up, and somebody posts "load plated bullets with lead data."

No you don't.

Granted, in most cases, it's not an issue. But it can be. For some reason, there seems to be this fear fixation with over-driving plated bullets, all while ignoring the real and bigger potential problem of under-driving them and sticking them in the barrel.

I agree. Kind of why I stay out of them any more.

Personally, I'm baffled at the purpose and concept of a plated or coated 148gr wadcutter. If there was ever a lead bullet that was easy to load without leading issues, the wadcutter is it, whether it be HB or DE.

Real Gun · January 19, 2016, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Personally, I'm baffled at the purpose and concept of a plated or coated 148gr wadcutter. If there was ever a lead bullet that was easy to load without leading issues, the wadcutter is it, whether it be HB or DE.

Agreed, I am not planning to buy anymore, but I have all 250 loaded now with a load I know will work.

It did occur to me though that plated is smaller in diameter than lead and that some guns are not set up to shoot lead without issues. My Berry's plated DEWC measure .357.

9x45 · January 19, 2016, 11:22 AM

Never ran plated bullets before, but I just picked up 2,000 124 9mm round nose as match product. According to the box they supposed to be good to 1,250 fps, guess I'll find out when they go thru the chrono in both an OEM barrel G17 and a BarSto barrel G17. These are loaded on top of 4.2 grains of TiteGroup at 1.140", my normal load is a Bayou 124TC at 1.100" with the same powder charge, and it goes about 1,180 fps.

LE-28 · January 19, 2016, 05:45 PM

Quote:

I have experience with sticking one of these in a barrel, when the load was not light, as much as the insertion and COL was not correct. I was new to the thing about seating bullets flush with the case mouth. This time the bullets are lightly roll crimped right at the radius of the bullet nose.

I use SWC load data for the DEWC plated bullets I buy. The SWC bullets are not seated near as deep as DEWC so the decrease in air space in the case makes up for the increase in friction of the longer bullet. I seat to about .050"of the end of the bullet and it ends up a .100"deeper than the SWC which makes up for the increased friction of the longer bullet.

It works for me.

Real Gun · January 19, 2016, 05:57 PM

Quote:

I use SWC load data for the DEWC plated bullets I buy. The SWC bullets are not seated near as deep as DEWC so the decrease in air space in the case makes up for the increase in friction of the longer bullet. I seat to about .050"of the end of the bullet and it ends up a .100"deeper than the SWC which makes up for the increased friction of the longer bullet.

It works for me.

That's a lot of guessing though.

DaleA · January 19, 2016, 06:14 PM

Quote:

These are loaded on top of 4.2 grains of TiteGroup at 1.140", my normal load is a Bayou 124TC at 1.100" with the same powder charge, and it goes about 1,180 fps.

I'd be interested in the results when you get them.

LE-28 · January 19, 2016, 08:18 PM

Quote:

That's a lot of guessing though.

Not really, I don't go over mid data and it keeps me out of trouble with sticking plated wadcutters.

9x45 · January 19, 2016, 09:37 PM

Dale, will post up when I chrono them.

V-fib · February 23, 2016, 11:34 AM

I recently loaded some of the Berrys 148gr dewc in .38sp using imr 700x. they shot great out of my 1 7/8" bbl S&W 642 but before I realized it I stuck two in my Taurus tracker .357 with 6.5" bbl.

Its at the smith right now for repair. (there is no barrel buldge and the smith said there is no evidence of a cracked barrel either.) My oal is 1.16 and the problem was I loaded them too light (2.2gr of 700x IMR powder)

My question. does anyone have jacketed data for the 148gr.berrys dewc in .38sp using 700x?

I'd like to get the velocity over 800 fps. my book shows a max load of IMR 700x using a LBBWC (3.5gr 700x) of a velocity of 850 fps. Hodgdon powder shows max load of 2.5GR 700X for a 148gr LHBWC for a velocity of 804 fps.

In .357 my book shows 148gr REM LWC using 3.0 gr of IMR 700x for a velocity of 705 fps. the hodgdon data shows 148gr. HDY LHBWC @ 3.5 gr 700x for a velocity of 909fps.

not quite sure where to go from here.

v-fib

mikld · February 23, 2016, 12:21 PM

Hmmm. I guess I'm exceedingly lucky, or blessed, or reloading on borrowed time. All my plated bullet loading has been with lead data. Most of my loads are mild as if I needed a higher velocity load, I'd use jacketed bullets, or my proven nekkid lead loads. I went through about 1,200 plated bullets and came to the conclusion my cast and commercial jacketed bullets do everything I need from any hand gun, and my cast lead bullets give me much more satisfaction than any other bullet I've loaded, so plated bullets are no longer on my "list". I haven't purchased any in about a year and a half, so mebbe my experience isn't up to date enough for this thread?

TimSr · February 23, 2016, 01:35 PM

Quote:

My question. does anyone have jacketed data for the 148gr.berrys dewc in .38sp using 700x?

This is another problem with these bullet makers turning out plated bullets with no load data. Who has ever heard of a jacketed wadcutter? Maybe they exist somewhere.

With other bullets you can kind of use jacketed data for starting loads, and kind of use cast data for upper loads of the plated bullets are soft. Good luck finding jacketed data for wadcutters. You can't even find data for harder cast DEWC. Its all based on swaged lead. All you can really do is take the top loads you can find for wadcutters, with the insight that the upper limits are usually there for performance purposes, and not because of pressure levels.

You'll also find that if you use lead data velocities, those will drop with a plated bullet over the same load, and pressures will increase.

Tsquared · February 23, 2016, 07:28 PM

Quote:

These are loaded on top of 4.2 grains of TiteGroup at 1.140", my normal load is a Bayou 124TC at 1.100" with the same powder charge, and it goes about 1,180 fps.

My results for Barry's 124gr RN w/ 1.125 OAL and 4.2gr of TiteGroup:
Glock G26 w/ 3.4" barrel yielded 1,085 fps
Taurus PT92AF w/ 5" barrel yielded 1,149 fps

I found I had tighter groups with both guns dropping down to 4 grains. That also dropped my G26 to 1,050 fps and the 92AF to 1,115 fps. This is higher than the on-line Hodgdon data for 4 gr @ 1,020fps. I attribute that to differences in primer, COAL, atmospheric conditions, and the flakiness of my chronograph.

SHR970 · February 23, 2016, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Realgun wrote in response to NickCS: No one wrote that. It is a strawman.

And then you go on to explain how you arrived at a load based upon lead data. The problem is the bullet shape, which is nominally a lead slug.

Sorry Realgun. but many have stated use lead data and both Nick and I have repeatedly warned against this when using LOW pressure lead lead data. ESPECIALLY when using 38 Special WC data.

Please use the search function.

Too many also quote "Don't go faster than XXXX FPS.

Sorry.. Been loading Plated 30 carbine for a long time. 1900 fps with those plated bullets hold up fine also.

Too much generalization is applied to plated data without understanding the margins.

And for the record.. Speer Gold Dots and Unicores are PLATED BULLETS!
Don't believe me.. call ATK / SPEER! or just read Speer #13.

Real Gun · February 24, 2016, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Sorry Realgun. but many have stated use lead data and both Nick and I have repeatedly warned against this when using LOW pressure lead lead data. ESPECIALLY when using 38 Special WC data.

For DEWC, lead data is all we have.

TMD · February 24, 2016, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Too many also quote "Don't go faster than XXXX FPS.

Sorry.. Been loading Plated 30 carbine for a long time. 1900 fps with those plated bullets hold up fine also.

That's because the 30 carbine plated bullets have thicker plating and are rated for higher velocities than plated pistol bullets.

January 15, 2016, 08:02 PM	#7
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,535	This thread is an excellent example of why I absolutely cringe when the subject of plated load data comes up, and somebody posts "load plated bullets with lead data." No you don't. Granted, in most cases, it's not an issue. But it can be. For some reason, there seems to be this fear fixation with over-driving plated bullets, all while ignoring the real and bigger potential problem of under-driving them and sticking them in the barrel. I load and shoot more 148 DEWC's - both lead and plated - than any other. I have a lot of experience with this. I have gotten my plated 148's (I prefer Rainier over Berry's because they cut a sharper hole. They are otherwise very similar.) down to about 730 f/s for IDPA Power Factor competition. But I created these recipes (with several different powders) as a load work down, not a work up. I started with lead recipes that run about 800 f/s, then load that charge under a plated slug as the starting point. BTW, that charge is usually pretty close because there is a considerable velocity drop just by switching from lead to plated. As a side note, I seat my plated DEWC's to the same OAL as lead DEWC's (which are seated in the crimp groove). I don't seat them flush. I use these in competition, and flush seated bullets don't speedload well. And as another side note, I strongly recommend using a taper crimp die if one plans on loading any quantity of plated bullets. Not only that, but lead DEWC's do quite well being taper crimped too. The light loading and long bearing surface of the slug makes roll crimping unnecessary. Taper crimping preserves the brass. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

February 23, 2016, 11:34 AM	#19
V-fib Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 254	stuck berrys bullet in barrel I recently loaded some of the Berrys 148gr dewc in .38sp using imr 700x. they shot great out of my 1 7/8" bbl S&W 642 but before I realized it I stuck two in my Taurus tracker .357 with 6.5" bbl. Its at the smith right now for repair. (there is no barrel buldge and the smith said there is no evidence of a cracked barrel either.) My oal is 1.16 and the problem was I loaded them too light (2.2gr of 700x IMR powder) My question. does anyone have jacketed data for the 148gr.berrys dewc in .38sp using 700x? I'd like to get the velocity over 800 fps. my book shows a max load of IMR 700x using a LBBWC (3.5gr 700x) of a velocity of 850 fps. Hodgdon powder shows max load of 2.5GR 700X for a 148gr LHBWC for a velocity of 804 fps. In .357 my book shows 148gr REM LWC using 3.0 gr of IMR 700x for a velocity of 705 fps. the hodgdon data shows 148gr. HDY LHBWC @ 3.5 gr 700x for a velocity of 909fps. not quite sure where to go from here. v-fib __________________ Livin in the woods...feelin mighty good.

January 15, 2016, 07:00 AM	#1
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	Berry's plated DEWC loading Test fired my chosen load for the 148 gr plated DEWC from Berry's. I took the load from Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook. It seems the loads must be extrapolated from those for lead bullets. The problem with these bullets is that with the extraordinary bearing surface of the DEWC and the galling that occurs with raw copper against a steel barrel one must use a serious load to avoid sticking a bullet in a barrel. I have experience with sticking one of these in a barrel, when the load was not light, as much as the insertion and COL was not correct. I was new to the thing about seating bullets flush with the case mouth. This time the bullets are lightly roll crimped right at the radius of the bullet nose. They are almost flush with the case mouth and are right at the COL listed for the load in lead. I used 4.0 gr of HP-38. The target showed perfect holes with no evidence of keyholing. The rounds were easy enough to shoot in my Ruger Service Six with 4" barrel. I wouldn't recommend seeking a soft shooting load with this bullet. Better to use lead. Last edited by Real Gun; January 16, 2016 at 10:34 AM. Reason: typo

January 15, 2016, 07:20 AM	#2
JT-AR-MG42 Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 555	I appreciate the tip. Had thought of trying, but think I'll stay with lead. Thinking it through, what you make say makes sense on the long bearing surface. I've always taper crimped (lightly) lead .38 DE and HBWC target loadings anyway, as I do not have a Smith or a Colt .38 semi. In addition, I only taper crimp any of my plated loads. Never have had setback, including in a 94 marlin .44 with full throttle 240s. JT

January 15, 2016, 07:40 AM	#3
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	I don't think taper crimp is an issue with these bullets. Full insertion is recommended, which presents a perfect point for a roll crimp. The bullets are certainly not going anywhere, so the roll crimp probably only serves to take the case mouth edge off the cartridge. I have pulled a few of these bullets with a inertial puller, and it took several serious raps to get the bullet even started. These provide a very different experience than plain lead. I noted from other forum posts that one should not depend upon HBWC loads for DEWC, since the pressure would be higher with DEWC and the resulting reduction in case volume.

January 15, 2016, 09:15 AM	#4
Grizz12 Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2012 Posts: 527	I used to load HBWC's upside-down and shoot into jugs of water or the cheapest carbonated drink in a can, I could find, they REALLY expand nicely

January 15, 2016, 11:33 AM	#5
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	Cool, but lead HBWC is its own topic.

January 15, 2016, 03:43 PM	#6
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	I stuck a plated 148 DEWC in my revolver too. I used 357 brass and a starting charge of 7625, and I lengthened the OAL a bit, that's where I went wrong. Now I use 5 grains of Unique to make sure they get out of my barrel. Great bullets, highly accurate, but like Real Gun says, not a good choice for the lightest loads.

January 16, 2016, 01:29 PM	#9
wpsdlrg Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2009 Posts: 826	I've never had "galling" problems, or copper deposition for that matter, with the Berry's DEWC's myself. I've shot a couple of thousand of them. I just load them the same as my other 38 spl. loads - 3.5 grains of Bullseye or Titegroup for a normal load and 3.2 for a light target load. Usually 3.8 grains of HP-38, when I use that powder. Never had a problem of any kind with these bullets. Oh and I always use a taper crimp, instead of a roll crimp, on ANY bullets lacking a crimp groove.

January 19, 2016, 11:22 AM	#13
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Never ran plated bullets before, but I just picked up 2,000 124 9mm round nose as match product. According to the box they supposed to be good to 1,250 fps, guess I'll find out when they go thru the chrono in both an OEM barrel G17 and a BarSto barrel G17. These are loaded on top of 4.2 grains of TiteGroup at 1.140", my normal load is a Bayou 124TC at 1.100" with the same powder charge, and it goes about 1,180 fps.

January 19, 2016, 09:37 PM	#18
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Dale, will post up when I chrono them.

February 23, 2016, 12:21 PM	#20
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Hmmm. I guess I'm exceedingly lucky, or blessed, or reloading on borrowed time. All my plated bullet loading has been with lead data. Most of my loads are mild as if I needed a higher velocity load, I'd use jacketed bullets, or my proven nekkid lead loads. I went through about 1,200 plated bullets and came to the conclusion my cast and commercial jacketed bullets do everything I need from any hand gun, and my cast lead bullets give me much more satisfaction than any other bullet I've loaded, so plated bullets are no longer on my "list". I haven't purchased any in about a year and a half, so mebbe my experience isn't up to date enough for this thread?