9mm carbine load

Ryboman · July 23, 2015, 12:34 PM

Hi guys - A friend and I have been developing a load for our Beretta CX4's. We've come up with a load that will safely push XTP's at 1400 fps with an SD of just 9 fps. We have become concerned about the proper expansion of bullets designed for a muzzle velocity of 1100-1200 fps that are pushed to 1400 fps. My friend came up with the idea of using a .357 Sig bullet (Speer 125 gr/.355 dia.) to take advantage of the extra speed. Anybody try this? Enough case capacity? Thanks in advance for the responses.

Ryboman · July 23, 2015, 12:44 PM

I shouldn't have said "take advantage of the extra speed". I should have said we want to "ensure proper expansion" if we can produce the same speed/sd result with the .357 Sig bullet

Kosh75287 · July 23, 2015, 01:06 PM

Remember to drop your starting charge with the new projectile by 10%, in case there IS internal volume change with it.

It shouldn't be a problem to find a projectile with more controlled expansion at the higher velocities. What usually happens to ME in situations like that is, I cannot push the newer projectile to the same velocities as the previous, more fragile one w/o encountering pressure signs.

You might also consider launching a (very) hard cast lead HP of the same or slightly heavier mass. The lubricity of cast bullets usually does nice things for velocities, and if cast hard enough, won't lead the barrels so awfully.

Nick_C_S · July 23, 2015, 04:49 PM

I've never tried what you're asking.

But there is such as a thing as too much velocity and excessively violent expansion. So your theory is sound - Speer's 357 Sig bullets are more sturdy than their 9mm bullets (a bit oversimplified there). It would follow that the Sig bullets would be better suited for carbine velocities.

I like where your head has gone with this. I think doing your work ups with Speer's Sig bullets is a good idea.

Ryboman · July 23, 2015, 08:55 PM

Thanks for the input guys. It's more or less a moot point on the Speers because their never available. We plan to test some of the new Nosler 124gr Sporting Handgun bullets that we think will behave well at the higher velocities - at least until we can get our hands on some of those Speers.

Nick_C_S · July 23, 2015, 09:59 PM

Quote:

moot point on the Speers because they're never available.

Yes, this is true. Speer loaded ammo is so popular that their bullets rarely make it the store shelves. I've picked up Gold Dot bullets for 45 ACP, 44 mag/sp, 9mm, & 10mm/40S&W. But they were all rare finds.

I've seen some 357 Sig's at my LGS about a year or so ago. I remember because I almost bought them thinking that they were 38/357 125gn HP's. I got half way to the registers before I realized they were 357 Sig bullets. I had to turn around and put them back.

I mentioned the 9mm's above. Those were pure luck. About a year n a half ago, I just happened to be at my LGS when they were putting a new shipment on the shelves. There were 5 boxes of 124gn GDHP's. All five boxes were still banded together for shipping. I just grabbed all 5. Haven't seen any since. Come to think if it, I still have them, collecting dust. . .

Mobuck · July 23, 2015, 11:19 PM

147 GoldDots will washer at close range on steel plates out of a carbine and splatter water filled milk jugs at 100 yards leaving a .5" mushroom. These are just common factory loads-no super duper defense loads.

skizzums · July 23, 2015, 11:40 PM

hornaday XTP are rated for proper expansion up to 1500FPS. i agree that they may be a little extreme to be optimal for the bullet, but if you stuck with a 147gr bullet, i think your speeds will stay well within velocities for the XTP not to have unwanted shedding or fragmenting. i also load specifiaccly for a carbine and use either the 147gr Golden Saber(sheds some petals but expands to over .50 fro m carbine) and the Sierra 125gr JSP "Sportmaster" (not a HP, but a generous soft-point that mushrooms to perfection and retain 100%), load them with a max charge of HS-6 and they run great to 50+ yards from the 16" carbine. i have just begun special loads for my 9mm AR with 5" and will likely just stick to FTX's. Have fun, and remember to take into account the distance you want your carbine to be accurate, the heavier bullets really help keep it straight when shooting at signifigant dinstances.

this is the sierra JSP sportmaster. note that this projectile, or any sierra JSP prjectile is not sold in .355. this is a .357 run first through a .356 sizing die and then a .355. although a .356 would like be no problem, just slug your bore and see where your at if curious. but this seems to be a very effecive high speed 9mm carbine load.

sorry for poor spelling/typing. my tablet is having serious keyboard issues and will not spell check on this forum. i am not actually retarded, i swear

Ryboman · July 25, 2015, 06:07 PM

Thanks again guys for the continuing good input. We've chrono'd a lot of loads, but we have no practical way to test expansion as our goal, attainable or not, is to have an effective defensive load from close in out to 100 +/- yards. Compromises are the order of the day given the powder and bullet availability issues. We agree that the 147 xtp is good to go at the higher velocities and it is, in fact, our bullet of choice until we find something better.

Jim243 · July 25, 2015, 06:57 PM

I am not sure what the purpose of these rounds are for. Making reloads above Max is not a good idea and could be dangerous. If speed is all you want from your Pistol Caliber Carbine, then the lighter the bullet the faster it will go. You could use any 9mm bullet such as 102 grain (380) bullets or just use standard 115 hollow points to get the speed.

BUT, you are miss using the whole idea having and using a PCC rifle. The heavier bullets will be more effective in a PCC. Using the 147 grain 9mm bullets will provide a much better result in producing damage. They just do not fly or need the higher speeds you are talking about. This is much more like talking about the differences between 9mm and 45 Auto bullet differences.

If you are looking to just have the bullet go completely through your target then keep going with what you are doing, if you are talking about imparting damage then go with the 147 grain bullets.

Stay safe and be well.
Jim

SHR970 · July 25, 2015, 08:52 PM

You might want to take a page from the Corbon Play book. They use Sierra Bullets for their +P loads; they have for many years! Just thought you might want to know that.

July 23, 2015, 12:34 PM	#1
Ryboman Junior Member Join Date: June 10, 2013 Posts: 6	9mm carbine load Hi guys - A friend and I have been developing a load for our Beretta CX4's. We've come up with a load that will safely push XTP's at 1400 fps with an SD of just 9 fps. We have become concerned about the proper expansion of bullets designed for a muzzle velocity of 1100-1200 fps that are pushed to 1400 fps. My friend came up with the idea of using a .357 Sig bullet (Speer 125 gr/.355 dia.) to take advantage of the extra speed. Anybody try this? Enough case capacity? Thanks in advance for the responses.

July 23, 2015, 01:06 PM	#3
Kosh75287 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2007 Posts: 820	Proceed with caution Remember to drop your starting charge with the new projectile by 10%, in case there IS internal volume change with it. It shouldn't be a problem to find a projectile with more controlled expansion at the higher velocities. What usually happens to ME in situations like that is, I cannot push the newer projectile to the same velocities as the previous, more fragile one w/o encountering pressure signs. You might also consider launching a (very) hard cast lead HP of the same or slightly heavier mass. The lubricity of cast bullets usually does nice things for velocities, and if cast hard enough, won't lead the barrels so awfully.

July 23, 2015, 04:49 PM	#4
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,616	I've never tried what you're asking. But there is such as a thing as too much velocity and excessively violent expansion. So your theory is sound - Speer's 357 Sig bullets are more sturdy than their 9mm bullets (a bit oversimplified there). It would follow that the Sig bullets would be better suited for carbine velocities. I like where your head has gone with this. I think doing your work ups with Speer's Sig bullets is a good idea. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

July 23, 2015, 11:40 PM	#8
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	hornaday XTP are rated for proper expansion up to 1500FPS. i agree that they may be a little extreme to be optimal for the bullet, but if you stuck with a 147gr bullet, i think your speeds will stay well within velocities for the XTP not to have unwanted shedding or fragmenting. i also load specifiaccly for a carbine and use either the 147gr Golden Saber(sheds some petals but expands to over .50 fro m carbine) and the Sierra 125gr JSP "Sportmaster" (not a HP, but a generous soft-point that mushrooms to perfection and retain 100%), load them with a max charge of HS-6 and they run great to 50+ yards from the 16" carbine. i have just begun special loads for my 9mm AR with 5" and will likely just stick to FTX's. Have fun, and remember to take into account the distance you want your carbine to be accurate, the heavier bullets really help keep it straight when shooting at signifigant dinstances. this is the sierra JSP sportmaster. note that this projectile, or any sierra JSP prjectile is not sold in .355. this is a .357 run first through a .356 sizing die and then a .355. although a .356 would like be no problem, just slug your bore and see where your at if curious. but this seems to be a very effecive high speed 9mm carbine load. sorry for poor spelling/typing. my tablet is having serious keyboard issues and will not spell check on this forum. i am not actually retarded, i swear Last edited by skizzums; July 23, 2015 at 11:58 PM.

July 23, 2015, 12:44 PM	#2
Ryboman Junior Member Join Date: June 10, 2013 Posts: 6	I shouldn't have said "take advantage of the extra speed". I should have said we want to "ensure proper expansion" if we can produce the same speed/sd result with the .357 Sig bullet

July 23, 2015, 08:55 PM	#5
Ryboman Junior Member Join Date: June 10, 2013 Posts: 6	Thanks for the input guys. It's more or less a moot point on the Speers because their never available. We plan to test some of the new Nosler 124gr Sporting Handgun bullets that we think will behave well at the higher velocities - at least until we can get our hands on some of those Speers.

July 23, 2015, 11:19 PM	#7
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	147 GoldDots will washer at close range on steel plates out of a carbine and splatter water filled milk jugs at 100 yards leaving a .5" mushroom. These are just common factory loads-no super duper defense loads.

July 25, 2015, 06:07 PM	#9
Ryboman Junior Member Join Date: June 10, 2013 Posts: 6	Thanks again guys for the continuing good input. We've chrono'd a lot of loads, but we have no practical way to test expansion as our goal, attainable or not, is to have an effective defensive load from close in out to 100 +/- yards. Compromises are the order of the day given the powder and bullet availability issues. We agree that the 147 xtp is good to go at the higher velocities and it is, in fact, our bullet of choice until we find something better.

July 25, 2015, 06:57 PM	#10
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	I am not sure what the purpose of these rounds are for. Making reloads above Max is not a good idea and could be dangerous. If speed is all you want from your Pistol Caliber Carbine, then the lighter the bullet the faster it will go. You could use any 9mm bullet such as 102 grain (380) bullets or just use standard 115 hollow points to get the speed. BUT, you are miss using the whole idea having and using a PCC rifle. The heavier bullets will be more effective in a PCC. Using the 147 grain 9mm bullets will provide a much better result in producing damage. They just do not fly or need the higher speeds you are talking about. This is much more like talking about the differences between 9mm and 45 Auto bullet differences. If you are looking to just have the bullet go completely through your target then keep going with what you are doing, if you are talking about imparting damage then go with the 147 grain bullets. Stay safe and be well. Jim

July 25, 2015, 08:52 PM	#11
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	You might want to take a page from the Corbon Play book. They use Sierra Bullets for their +P loads; they have for many years! Just thought you might want to know that.