38 Special brass "smudge"

[Reef]

Today I was at the range to test some 38 special reloads and noticed almost every case has a considerable amount of powder smudge but just on one side of the case.

Specifics of the load:

• Range brass
• Winchester small pistol primers
• 6.1 grs of Power Pistol
• Berry’s 125gr Flat Point plated bullets
• OAL 1.435”
• Speer Manual #14
• Test gun, S&W 357
• RCBS die set for sizing and seating
• Lee Factory Crimp Die


The first picture is the smudge side and the second is with all cases rotated 180 degrees.


Any ideas?

Reef

[TimSr]

That is gas blowing back from an insufficient case seal against the chamber. This is common in very low power rounds that don't develop enough pressure, or with a bullet too hard for the charge. I'm not familiar with Power Pistol, but its probably a little bit slow burning for lighter loads. You are at the max for standard .38 loads, but if your gun is +P rated, you can increase your charge up into +P land, and that will probably fix it. Most jacketed or plated bullets for .38 will work better in +P land anyways. Its not going to harm anything other than dirty of the chambers and make it harder to drop in the next rounds. If you are trying to stay with light recoil loads, it would be better to go to a fast powder and/or a lead bullet.

[243winxb]

I would not use the Lee Factory Crimp Die as it may size the bullet smaller in diameter, reducing bullet pull, causing low pressure. Maximum is 6.8gr +P and a magnum primer will not hurt a thing. Other than that, change powder to Bullseye powder.

[Nick_C_S]

You definitely have a really nasty case of gas blow-back. As previously diagnosed, this is caused by a low-pressure condition. It is indicative of an "out of balance" round. Now blow-back is not all that uncommon with 38 Special target rounds; but even at that, target shooters won't look as bad as yours.

I think you have a few issues compounding. . .

First, I'm not pleased with your bullet/powder combination choice. I think for 38 Special, Power Pistol is a bit slow for a 125g slug. That's just me. Others will disagree. That said, your issue could clear up simply by increasing the charge. 6.1gns is a starting load (according to Speer #14) and there's definitely room to bump up.

I'm also not pleased with the plated bullet. NOT because it's not plated per se,` but because it doesn't have a cannelure for roll crimping. I'd like to see how this bullet (weight)/powder combination would perform with a jacketed bullet with a heavy roll crimp in the cannelure. Again, this comes back to the powder choice - a heavy roll crimp can help with the burn characteristics of a powder that is otherwise slow for the application (like this).

A taper crimp die may help. Berry's 125's are designed to be taper crimped. I'm not sure if it would solve the problem, but at least they would be loaded "right," and that's usually a good starting point. I'm a big fan of the Lee FCD; but not for this application. I highly doubt its crimp is holding the bullet properly.

I load and shoot a lot of Berry's 125's. They're good straight shooters. I'm using 5.7g Unique (in compliance with Speer #14) with a firm taper crimp. They run clean - especially for Unique. And they have plenty of pressure to prevent gas blow-back.

If you plan on loading a lot of plated bullets for 38 Special (or 357 Mag), I strongly recommend getting a taper crimp die. Mine (I have three - just for 38 Special) are RCBS and I am quite pleased with them. Roll crimping will due if you're only loading plated occasionally; but if you're going to frequently load plated, spring for the taper crimp die.

[Reef]

Interesting replies, appreciate the feedback. The reason for Power Pistol is I tried to find one "universal" powder that I could use for several calibers, 380, 9mm, 38 sp, and 45 ACP. PP works for all, albeit not perfect for all, but in this great powder shortage when I found several pounds available, I hit the buy button.

I think I will try to increase the charge a bit to see what that does. Then I will swap to jacketed bullets that have a cannelure (I have a few hundred on hand), and see if there's a difference.

Again, I appreciate the wisdom.

Reef

[wogpotter]

Again with the Lee FCD!
I use one all the time & I do not get that symptom. I got it specifically for plated bullets & that's what I use it for mainly.
I'd vote for too low pressure. A good indication might be "dirty" burning powder as well as the 2 often go hand-in-hand.

[Nick_C_S]

Both 38 Special and 45 ACP are low-pressure rounds. If you're going to use Power Pistol with them long-term, consider moving to heavier bullets. In the case of 38 Special, I think 158's would do better. And in the case of 45 ACP, look to 230 grainers. Powders behave faster when they're pushing heavier bullets.

I get the concept of having one universal powder. I went through a phase (several years, actually) where I only used W231 for most everything; and W296 only for big-fat magnum loads (357 & 44). So I was down to two powders.

That was then; this is now.

Nowdays, I like building rounds that are as properly tailored for my application as possible. After all, isn't that the very essence of being able to load your own? Anyway, I now have 10 different powders and every one has at least one specific application that I can't do without

We tend to go though phases as I mentioned. Who knows? Maybe I'll go back to only a few powders some day.

[Kframe]

Originally Posted by reef

The reason for Power Pistol is I tried to find one "universal" powder that I could use for several calibers, 380, 9mm, 38 sp, and 45 ACP.

If you're looking for an all-around pistol powder for 9, 38 and 45, look no further than Bullseye.
I don't know for certain about 380, but since it is just a 9mm Kurz, I don't see why not.

[sawdustdad]

If you can find another powder, all the better, but the smudges don't bother me. For my cowboy action loads, it's almost a given--they are low pressure regardless of the powder used. Just tumble until clean. Sometimes I don't worry about removing the smudges entirely. Won't hurt anything.

[Reef]

According to the Lee FCD instructions: With a loaded round in the die, turn the adjusting screw in until you can feel it just touch the case mouth. Then move the cartridge out of the die slightly and screw the adjusting screw in 1/2 turn for a light crimp and one full turn for a heavy crimp.

The case on the right is from yesterday using 1/2 of a turn and the one on the left is today using 1 turn. Chronograph reading was averaging 900 fps.

I didn't change anything other than the crimp and even though the brass is still a little dirty, a vast improvement from yesterday.

Reef

[T. O'Heir]

6.1 grs of Power Pistol is a max load for a 125 grain jacketed bullet. Plated bullets use cast data. You work up to 6.1 or just pick it and hope?
"... for 9, 38 and 45, look no further than Bullseye...." Absolutely. Max of 3.4 for a 90 grain jacketed .380, but not many reload .380.

[Kframe]

No.
Plated bullets use jacketed data.

[Reef]

You work up to 6.1 or just pick it and hope?

No, as stated in the original post.

According to plated bullet manufactures, you should use jacketed data. Not sure why you said cast bullet load data.

[mikld]

No.
Plated bullets use jacketed data.

Don't know where you got this info, but the Berry's website suggests no more than mid load for equal weight jacketed bullets. Another plated bullet mfg. (and I can't remember which) suggest cast lead data for plated bullets. Most reloaders I know will just use cast lead data for plated bullets. Not a big deal really as it's not mandatory nor necessary to load to the maximum bullet's potential/limit. I've even been known to load jacketed bullets with lead bullet data...

[wogpotter]

Plated use lead, not jacketed.

[Average Joe]

Plated bullets use lead data, I would go with a heavier bullet ...

[noylj]

125gn jacketed and Power Pistol: 5.4 to 6.8gn. Don't have ANY data for lead/plated. If you got your load data from M.D. Smith's web site, those were MAX loads and should have been reduced by 10-11%. However, you also seem to have discovered that one source's max loads can be no more than a starting load for you (and that the starting loads in a manual can be MAX or over-MAX with your particular components)--thus, always check at least two sources and start with the lowest start load.
I don't consider PP a great powder for .45 Auto or .38 Spl., but it will work--but it really performs best at higher pressures. You just need to work up the load--and that should have been from the start load.
For myself, a "better" universal powder, if you need a slow powder, would be True Blue--very versatile and does well from very light to MAX loads.
Unique is, of course, the REAL universal pistol powder.
Better, for your use, would be 231/HP38 as your universal powder. AA2, Bullseye, Red Dot, and N320 would also be quite applicable.

[jdscholer]

Awrite alla you knowitalls. This is from Berry's site. jd

We recommend using hard cast load data or start with mid-range jacketed data. Make sure data is below 1250fps unless you are using a Thick-Plated bullet that we list a higher max velocity for like the 9mm 124gr HBRN-TP that can be shot to 1500fps in open class guns like a .38 Super. Keep in mind that since our plated bullet has the same pressure curve as a hard cast bullet, the published cast data will be very close to what you will get with our plated bullets. If you use Jacketed data with our plated bullets you can get from 5% - 8% increase in velocity using that data.

[noylj]

>start with mid-range jacketed data.

This seems to be an error on their part. I would expect it to say "start with jacketed start data and work up to mid-range." Nobody should START at mid-range anything.