Safety Reminder

Jay24bal · January 20, 2015, 11:23 AM

Just a friendly reminder to all to make sure we are always taking the appropriate safety precautions while reloading.

Last night, I was priming a batch of rifle cases, and had a primer go off while it was being inserted into the case. Luckily I was wearing my safety glasses as I felt spray from the detonation on my face. I am no worse for the wear, other than a ringing in my ear that went away after an hour.

I have no idea what caused it to go off. I was the 8th last primer out of a brick of 1,000 and I have had no problems with the first 991. I deprimed it later, and there were no deformities or anything wrong with the brass that I noticed that would have caused it.

Stay safe!

polyphemus · January 20, 2015, 01:02 PM

What would really be helpful,if you gave some details other than the fact that
you were seating primers,like what method for instance.
Accidents happen but to prevent them you need to be informed,safety glasses do not help prevent accidents they help protect your eyes if they happen.

Jay24bal · January 20, 2015, 04:08 PM

I was hand-priming Winchester Small Rifle Primers in Lake City Brass using the Lee Auto-Prime XR.

CarJunkieLS1 · January 20, 2015, 05:01 PM

Possible that you missed a primer crimp on of the the LC brass? Glad you weren't hurt OP could've definitely hurt your eye either temporarily or permanently.

Jay24bal · January 20, 2015, 07:30 PM

Thanks carjunkie, and nope, the crimp has definitely been removed. This is not the first time I have reloaded this batch of brass (3rd), and you can see the beveled edge from knocking the original crimp out.

Honestly, if you saw the brass, it would like a regular piece of primed brass. No marks of any kind on the primer and nothing out of the ordinary on the brass. Excessive pressure was not even needed to seat the primer.

Just a sensitive primer I believe.

Wreck-n-Crew · January 20, 2015, 09:32 PM

May have had something in the primer hole on the brass when you went to prime it?

Hidalgo1 · January 20, 2015, 09:47 PM

WOW. So very glad you weren't hurt. Just one more reason that I prime with my press. I just don't like the hand tool in my hands. I know they're supposedly safe, but I'm just more at ease not using them.

jdscholer · January 20, 2015, 10:27 PM

Back in my early reloading days, (dawn of time), me and a lot of other poor kids used to pound our cartridges together with our favorite hammer and a Lee Loader which could be purchased at the local mercantile/hardware/auto parts/farm supply/sporting goods store. ($9.95)

Occasionally, a primer would go off for no good reason, except for the fact that --- I WAS POUNDING ON IT!!

It kept things exciting, and I never got hurt; and this was in the days before safety glasses were invented.

I've never had it happen in my press or hand primer. Glad ya didn't get hurt. jd

hartcreek · January 20, 2015, 11:36 PM

I seem to remember a warning for not using a certain brand primers with the Lee primeing tools as they had detonation problems.

Found a link

http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/t...TOPIC_ID=13732

9mmSkeeter · January 21, 2015, 04:55 AM

Wow, that's incredibly rare - but apparently not impossible. Glad you weren't hurt, and thanks for the reminder :-)

Jay24bal · January 21, 2015, 10:20 AM

Quote:

I seem to remember a warning for not using a certain brand primers with the Lee primeing tools as they had detonation problems.

I believe this old warning (whether for good reasons or not) was for the original Auto-Prime by Lee, with their new Auto Prime XR, the warning no longer applies from Lee.

And I believe the warning was for Federal primers, the one that blew up on me was a Winchester SRP.

F. Guffey · January 21, 2015, 10:33 AM

I remember all of that, I read the book, the book was by R. Lee on modern reloading. R. Lee was most unkind to Federal, again, I read the book.

In the book written by R. Lee R. Lee writes/says he did not test Federal primers because Federal did not donate primers to be tested.

Another event in reloading that is not fair.

F. Guffey

**Unclenick** · January 21, 2015, 12:07 PM

Federal has long had a reputation for having the most sensitive primers, and the rumor was that a Lee customer had one go off that caused sympathetic ignition of all the others in the tray, resulting in a law suit. That large a number of primers going off together could be a very serious hazard. So, if the rumor is correct, that's when Lee decided they didn't want anyone else risking it, and hence the flame.

More recently though, if you read reviews on Midway and a couple of othe places, you find Winchester primers are the ones that get hammered for piercing and other problems. Sometime around 2,000 (late 90's, I think, but I don't trust my memory on that point), Winchester decided to address complaints about inadequate sensitivity by ceasing to nickel plate their primer cups. Seems like they accomplished their goal: softer cups.

We had a photo in a post on the board awhile back of a carton of Winchester primers that had partially detonated in the box during shipping. Don't know if it was dropped, or what, but it didn't look good.

Another thing that can set primers off is priming mix dust building up in a priming tool. Dillons have had very occasional ignitions in their reinforced feed tubes due to this that have put quite a pattern on the ceiling above them. Only tiny bits of the dust leak out at a time, but eventually it accumulates somewhere, and if it got pushed up into the primer cup, it could go off and light up the rest of the primer. Anyway, the bottom line there is to disassemble and clean primer handling equipment with alcohol periodically.

Also, wearing hearing as well as eye protection is often advised, for reasons described in the OP!

Lucas McCain · January 21, 2015, 01:18 PM

I remember that problem way back when, but never heard all the details. Any way I use a old lee hand primer and I noticed that there was at times, and I don't remember which brand of primer I was using, there was a very light mark left on the primer face from the primer punch. It looked like it was a machine cut off mark dead center on the punch face. I just took a file and filed it off smooth, never have had a problem with it in more than 40 years.

For a primer to go off the anvil has to be seated against something solid. So I can see where if the priming film is two thick and the anvil is protruding above the primer cup edge and the primer gets seated to hard, it could very well ignite. That is why I always point the cartridge I am priming away from my face.
Can any of you think of any other scenarios?

**Unclenick** · January 21, 2015, 01:39 PM

Yes. Primer dust is another scenario (see my previous post).

Anvil feet normally protrude above the lip of the primer cup. When you seat the primer you are supposed to compress the feet beyond where they touch the bottom of the primer pocket. This is so the anvil squeezes some of the priming mix out from between the inverted tip of the anvil and the bottom of the primer cup to achieve an optimally sensitive thickness. It is called "setting the bridge" (the thickness of the priming mix bridging the gap between the anvil and cup) in commercial parlance, and "reconsolidating" the primer in military parlance.

In a declassified McDonnel-Douglas military contracting document (REPORT MDC A0514 30 JUNE 1970, REVISED JUNE 1976), Remington and Olin both recommend reconsolidating 0.002" to 0.006" beyond anvil contact with the bottom of the primer pocket. The 1995 Precision Shooting Reloading Guide says Federal recommends 0.002" and 0.003" for small and large rifle primers, respectively. The Forster Co-ax press has a primer seating tool built in that seats all primers 0.005" below flush with the case head at the back with the expectation this will hit the required range of reconsolidation even after primer and primer pocket tolerances are taken into consideration. It's the only tool I know of that does this, but second only to the Dillon 1050 mechanism, it comes closest to mimicking most commercial cartridges by that approach.

So, can you set a primer off by overdoing the bridge set? I suppose anything is possible every once in awhile, but it's hard to do and the primers are supposed to handle some reconsolidation normally. That makes it hard to identify a threshold.

polyphemus · January 21, 2015, 02:08 PM

Quote:

That makes it hard to identify a threshold

I guess the fellows who decap live primers and then recycle them,know all about that.

F. Guffey · January 22, 2015, 10:33 AM

Quote:

I guess the fellows who decap live primers and then recycle them,know all about that.

I do not know about 'the fellows', a reloader, shooter, builder called and wanted to know what was wrong with Remington Ammo, I suggested he call Remington. Long story, he was at the range when a shooter with a new Ruger rifle and new Remington ammo had 5 fail to fire out of a box of 20. He did not get the name of the proud shooter/owner, he did not save the ammo box. He did bring the 15 fired and 5 fail to fire cases over that afternoon. We measured the fired and failed to fire cases in every way imaginable. We tore the failed to fire cases down to each component. then we installed the failed to fire primers back into the cases and fired them in one of my M1917 rifles.

My friend said every shooter at the range with a 30/06 rifle had a go at firing the failed to fire cases. The primers had no less than 5 strikes each. there is nothing bashful about the primer strikes on my M1917 rifles. I do have one M1917 with a short lock up, if it was not so accurate I would fix it. $140.00 for a rifle that can not be improved upon is an easy decision when applying the 'leaver policy'.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · January 22, 2015, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Any way I use a old lee hand primer and I noticed that there was at times, and I don't remember which brand of primer I was using, there was a very light mark left on the primer face from the primer punch

I reloader/shooter/etc. was at wits end with the same problem. He was working with RCBS, the dents in the primer when seating bothered him, I have had dents, I have never had a dent in a primer caused it to fail to fire. same for neighbor, shooter, reloader.

RCBS made parts, no improvement, RCBS sent replacement parts, no improvement. I loaned him my two RCBS auto primers with the understanding there would be no improvement, sure enough, no improvement, I called RCBS, they were on top of it, they knew who I was referring to when I described the problem. They said they were going to send him a new shell holder, and they ask me if I would like to have a new shell holder for my Auto Primer, I reminded them I had two auto hand primers and both had the same problem, they did not offer two shell holders.

I suggested if they sent me a new shell holder I would have one more shell holder that is part of the problem. My 9mm shell holders from RCBS are loose enough to allow most of my 9mm cases to cant when seating primers. The case cant allows the primer to take on the appearance of a half moon dent.

F. Guffey

polyphemus · January 22, 2015, 11:22 AM

Quote:

We tore the failed to fire cases down to each component. then we installed the failed to fire primers back into the cases and fired them in one of my M1917 rifles.

My friend said every shooter at the range with a 30/06 rifle had a go at firing the failed to fire cases. The primers had no less than 5 strikes each.

That must be some kind of microscope you got to be able to tell the number of strikes in those primers,anyway what is the point of your story?
Is it that you got a better rifle? or that you can take factory ammo,break it down and repair it reusing the components?
I'm sure that there's something useful to be learned from it I just don't get it.

Kframe · January 22, 2015, 11:22 AM

The only time I had a primer go off was about 15 years ago while using a Lee Loader, it was either a CCI or Winchester.

At the time my reloading was done in a 6x8' drywalled closet, and it was so loud I didn't hear the bang; I had the radio going and suddenly there was a flash of light and all of a sudden things got totally quiet and then a ringing came on that lasted a couple hours.

These days I use the Auto-Prime hand primer, I think it's the original one (bought shortly after my experience with the LL priming method).
I only use Win primers now, and have never had a problem.

I also now wear eye and ear protection while priming, just in case.

polyphemus · January 22, 2015, 11:37 AM

Richard Lee says in his book that the Lee Loader "held the Guinness record for the world's smallest group for over seven years." As impressive as that is,the
idea of using a hammer to pound reloading components in cancels the appeal
of world class shooting.But that's just me.

McCarthy · January 22, 2015, 11:49 AM

Read the over 100 negative reviews of your Lee Auto Prime XR Hand Priming Tool at Midway:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/413...l#ReviewHeader

I stay far away from any reloading equipment with so many people having major concerns. The reviews at Midway are really helpful.

F. Guffey · January 22, 2015, 12:09 PM

Quote:

That must be some kind of microscope you got to be able to tell the number of strikes in those primers,anyway what is the point of your story?

Quote:

My friend said every shooter at the range with a 30/06 rifle had a go at firing the failed to fire cases. The primers had no less than 5 strikes each.

I have been accused of building booby traps, I have never denied the accusation because I have never felt the practice was necessary because boobys are too easy to catch. A friend at the range said everyone at the range with a 30/06 rifle had a go at the failed to fire.

Quote:

Is it that you got a better rifle? or that you can take factory ammo,break it down and repair it reusing the components?
I'm sure that there's something useful to be learned from it I just don't get it.

I have rifles with killer firing pins, meanwhile back to the range, I was asked about Remington ammo, I said call Remington, the phone number is on the box. The failed to fire ammo shows up without the box, forget calling Remington. I was impressed with the fired cases, I was impressed with the components, first with dimensions and weight. All 5 failed to fire primers fired, after all that abuse, what did I get out if it? I received 20 Remington cases that fit my chamber gage and would chamber in any 30/06 chamber I have.

With no contact for the shooter and proud owner of the new Ruger and Remington ammo and no info from the Remington box we decided everyone at the range was spreading the rumor about 'bad ol Remington ammo'. And I believe if I had taken one of my M1917s to the range and got at the end of the line of 30/06 rifles the primers would have been crushed and fired. We will never know if removing the primers and reinstalling them 'fixed-um'.

F. Guffey

January 20, 2015, 11:23 AM	#1
Jay24bal Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2011 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 735	Safety Reminder Just a friendly reminder to all to make sure we are always taking the appropriate safety precautions while reloading. Last night, I was priming a batch of rifle cases, and had a primer go off while it was being inserted into the case. Luckily I was wearing my safety glasses as I felt spray from the detonation on my face. I am no worse for the wear, other than a ringing in my ear that went away after an hour. I have no idea what caused it to go off. I was the 8th last primer out of a brick of 1,000 and I have had no problems with the first 991. I deprimed it later, and there were no deformities or anything wrong with the brass that I noticed that would have caused it. Stay safe!

January 20, 2015, 10:27 PM	#8
jdscholer Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Jefferson State Posts: 1,197	Back in my early reloading days, (dawn of time), me and a lot of other poor kids used to pound our cartridges together with our favorite hammer and a Lee Loader which could be purchased at the local mercantile/hardware/auto parts/farm supply/sporting goods store. ($9.95) Occasionally, a primer would go off for no good reason, except for the fact that --- I WAS POUNDING ON IT!! It kept things exciting, and I never got hurt; and this was in the days before safety glasses were invented. I've never had it happen in my press or hand primer. Glad ya didn't get hurt. jd __________________ "We're all dummies, just in different ways." Old Okie Philosopher

January 20, 2015, 11:36 PM	#9
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	I seem to remember a warning for not using a certain brand primers with the Lee primeing tools as they had detonation problems. Found a link http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/t...TOPIC_ID=13732 Last edited by hartcreek; January 20, 2015 at 11:46 PM.

January 21, 2015, 04:55 AM	#10
9mmSkeeter Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2014 Location: South Dakota Posts: 205	Wow, that's incredibly rare - but apparently not impossible. Glad you weren't hurt, and thanks for the reminder :-) __________________ I kind of like weaponry.

January 21, 2015, 12:07 PM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,131	Federal has long had a reputation for having the most sensitive primers, and the rumor was that a Lee customer had one go off that caused sympathetic ignition of all the others in the tray, resulting in a law suit. That large a number of primers going off together could be a very serious hazard. So, if the rumor is correct, that's when Lee decided they didn't want anyone else risking it, and hence the flame. More recently though, if you read reviews on Midway and a couple of othe places, you find Winchester primers are the ones that get hammered for piercing and other problems. Sometime around 2,000 (late 90's, I think, but I don't trust my memory on that point), Winchester decided to address complaints about inadequate sensitivity by ceasing to nickel plate their primer cups. Seems like they accomplished their goal: softer cups. We had a photo in a post on the board awhile back of a carton of Winchester primers that had partially detonated in the box during shipping. Don't know if it was dropped, or what, but it didn't look good. Another thing that can set primers off is priming mix dust building up in a priming tool. Dillons have had very occasional ignitions in their reinforced feed tubes due to this that have put quite a pattern on the ceiling above them. Only tiny bits of the dust leak out at a time, but eventually it accumulates somewhere, and if it got pushed up into the primer cup, it could go off and light up the rest of the primer. Anyway, the bottom line there is to disassemble and clean primer handling equipment with alcohol periodically. Also, wearing hearing as well as eye protection is often advised, for reasons described in the OP! __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 20, 2015, 01:02 PM	#2
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	What would really be helpful,if you gave some details other than the fact that you were seating primers,like what method for instance. Accidents happen but to prevent them you need to be informed,safety glasses do not help prevent accidents they help protect your eyes if they happen.

January 20, 2015, 04:08 PM	#3
Jay24bal Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2011 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 735	I was hand-priming Winchester Small Rifle Primers in Lake City Brass using the Lee Auto-Prime XR.

January 20, 2015, 05:01 PM	#4
CarJunkieLS1 Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2013 Posts: 689	Possible that you missed a primer crimp on of the the LC brass? Glad you weren't hurt OP could've definitely hurt your eye either temporarily or permanently.

January 20, 2015, 07:30 PM	#5
Jay24bal Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2011 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 735	Thanks carjunkie, and nope, the crimp has definitely been removed. This is not the first time I have reloaded this batch of brass (3rd), and you can see the beveled edge from knocking the original crimp out. Honestly, if you saw the brass, it would like a regular piece of primed brass. No marks of any kind on the primer and nothing out of the ordinary on the brass. Excessive pressure was not even needed to seat the primer. Just a sensitive primer I believe.

January 20, 2015, 09:32 PM	#6
Wreck-n-Crew Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,820	May have had something in the primer hole on the brass when you went to prime it?

January 20, 2015, 09:47 PM	#7
Hidalgo1 Member Join Date: November 22, 2014 Location: East TN Posts: 23	WOW. So very glad you weren't hurt. Just one more reason that I prime with my press. I just don't like the hand tool in my hands. I know they're supposedly safe, but I'm just more at ease not using them.

January 21, 2015, 10:33 AM	#12
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	I remember all of that, I read the book, the book was by R. Lee on modern reloading. R. Lee was most unkind to Federal, again, I read the book. In the book written by R. Lee R. Lee writes/says he did not test Federal primers because Federal did not donate primers to be tested. Another event in reloading that is not fair. F. Guffey

January 21, 2015, 01:18 PM	#14
Lucas McCain Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2013 Location: Callaway, MN Posts: 361	I remember that problem way back when, but never heard all the details. Any way I use a old lee hand primer and I noticed that there was at times, and I don't remember which brand of primer I was using, there was a very light mark left on the primer face from the primer punch. It looked like it was a machine cut off mark dead center on the punch face. I just took a file and filed it off smooth, never have had a problem with it in more than 40 years. For a primer to go off the anvil has to be seated against something solid. So I can see where if the priming film is two thick and the anvil is protruding above the primer cup edge and the primer gets seated to hard, it could very well ignite. That is why I always point the cartridge I am priming away from my face. Can any of you think of any other scenarios? __________________ If you have time to do it twice, then you have time to do it once right and put your name on it

January 21, 2015, 01:39 PM	#15
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,131	Yes. Primer dust is another scenario (see my previous post). Anvil feet normally protrude above the lip of the primer cup. When you seat the primer you are supposed to compress the feet beyond where they touch the bottom of the primer pocket. This is so the anvil squeezes some of the priming mix out from between the inverted tip of the anvil and the bottom of the primer cup to achieve an optimally sensitive thickness. It is called "setting the bridge" (the thickness of the priming mix bridging the gap between the anvil and cup) in commercial parlance, and "reconsolidating" the primer in military parlance. In a declassified McDonnel-Douglas military contracting document (REPORT MDC A0514 30 JUNE 1970, REVISED JUNE 1976), Remington and Olin both recommend reconsolidating 0.002" to 0.006" beyond anvil contact with the bottom of the primer pocket. The 1995 Precision Shooting Reloading Guide says Federal recommends 0.002" and 0.003" for small and large rifle primers, respectively. The Forster Co-ax press has a primer seating tool built in that seats all primers 0.005" below flush with the case head at the back with the expectation this will hit the required range of reconsolidation even after primer and primer pocket tolerances are taken into consideration. It's the only tool I know of that does this, but second only to the Dillon 1050 mechanism, it comes closest to mimicking most commercial cartridges by that approach. So, can you set a primer off by overdoing the bridge set? I suppose anything is possible every once in awhile, but it's hard to do and the primers are supposed to handle some reconsolidation normally. That makes it hard to identify a threshold. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 22, 2015, 11:22 AM	#20
Kframe Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 1999 Location: MN Posts: 640	The only time I had a primer go off was about 15 years ago while using a Lee Loader, it was either a CCI or Winchester. At the time my reloading was done in a 6x8' drywalled closet, and it was so loud I didn't hear the bang; I had the radio going and suddenly there was a flash of light and all of a sudden things got totally quiet and then a ringing came on that lasted a couple hours. These days I use the Auto-Prime hand primer, I think it's the original one (bought shortly after my experience with the LL priming method). I only use Win primers now, and have never had a problem. I also now wear eye and ear protection while priming, just in case.

January 22, 2015, 11:37 AM	#21
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	Richard Lee says in his book that the Lee Loader "held the Guinness record for the world's smallest group for over seven years." As impressive as that is,the idea of using a hammer to pound reloading components in cancels the appeal of world class shooting.But that's just me.

January 22, 2015, 11:49 AM	#22
McCarthy Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2015 Posts: 312	Read the over 100 negative reviews of your Lee Auto Prime XR Hand Priming Tool at Midway: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/413...l#ReviewHeader I stay far away from any reloading equipment with so many people having major concerns. The reviews at Midway are really helpful.