Reddot, .45acp, 230grn LRN, Flattened Primers...

[Gregory Gauvin]

I was recently forced to move to Reddot, for my usual powder (HS-6) is unavailable.

I worked up some loads using Reddot, trying to find a load that yielded the best accuracy out of my 1911. From information I gathered, a 230 grain lead RN bullet shows a charge of min. 4.0 grains to max 5.4 grains. I must seat my bullets to an OAL of 1.250" for them to chamber and function reliably. I am using Berry 230grLRN Hard Cast.

I am using Remington 1 1/2 Large Pistol Primers.

At 4.5 grains, I am showing flattened and cratered primers. I thought this to be odd as this charge is well below the max. Felt recoil seems to be about that of Win White Box Ball, and no where near as potent as my warmer HS-6 load. (I know that isn't the proper way to test pressure).

I usually run a WLP primer. Even if the Remington primers are softer, I still don't believe I should be getting cratered primers.

Any thoughts?

[243winxb]

Alliant shows 5.1 max. Check scale with test weights.

[steve4102]

Reading primers in a low pressure round like the 45 ACP is less than helpful.

The 45 acp (21K psi) and the 10 MM Auto(37.5K psi) use the same Large Pistol Primer. How does the primer know to show pressure signs(flattening) just above 21K psi in the 45 ACP, yet hold off on pressure "Flattening" in the 10MM until pressures are above 37.5K?

Reading primers in a 45 ACP is akin to reading Tea Leaves.

Follow your data and use a chrony and forget reading primers.

[Gregory Gauvin]

Good point, Steve. I had always been weary of reading pressure signs for low pressure cartridges such as the .45 acp or blowback firearms.

According to my LEE book, it lists a min and max charge of 4.0 grains @ 1.190" for 810 ft/sec

Speer lists 5.1 grains @ 1.270" for 841 ft/sec

[243winxb]

The 45 acp (21K psi) and the 10 MM Auto(37.5K psi) use the same Large Pistol Primer.

I wonder if the web thickness comes into play? I know the 45acp web is thinner, compared to the 44 mag. I use the WLP for both. Red Dot is not a great 45acp powder for maximum loads. Light target loads only and accuracy was not as good as Bullseye. I tried Red Dot because i had* 8 lbs for shotgun loading.

[Nick_C_S]

Do you have a chronograph?

Red Dot and HS-6 are very different animals.

HS-6 is a medium speed powder that burns cool and has a stable pressure curve. It generally has a "taught, but smooth" recoil in 45 ACP.

Red Dot is a fast powder that burns hot and tends to have a spikey pressure curve. Its recoil is often described as "snappy."

You've got an apples-n-oranges thing going on here. I suggest judging Red Dot on its own terms. It's not HS-6.

I'm not a big fan of Red Dot. But it's a decent propellant for 45 ACP. We can quote manuals all day long. How does it feel when shooting? Depending on your experience, if it doesn't feel right shooting, then it probably isn't. At that point, I'd back down the load and give that a try.

A chronograph would sure be helpful about now

[Gregory Gauvin]

No, I do not have a chronograph. I had always had the meaning to purchase one, but, I am not overly concerned with the velocity I am shooting at, nor am I trying to push a load to its max. I load generally from a listing starting load to its max, finding a load that yields best accuracy. I understand that a chrony would help answer lots of questions going on here....

I also know that HS-6 and Red Dot are very different. Being a safe reloader, and loading for other cartridges, particularly the .40, I always have wanted to ear towards slower powders to have a margin of safety. Although HS-6 is not "best" suited for the .45 and likes pressures to burn cleanly, I'd sacrifice having the powder residue to clean up then a broken firearm or injury. You never know!

The felt recoil of the 2 powders are significantly different. I have grown accustom to the HS-6. It does "push" that .45 back into the hand, while the Red Dot feels more like the recoil of a 9mm.

I know most felt recoil is due to the escaping gasses out the barrel - but, according to my manual....a 8grain load of HS-6 with a 230grLRN is probably pushing that round up there towards 860 ft/sec. Ideally, keeping my rounds at factory ball velocities would suit me, as I am not inclined to wear out my guns either - however, that particular load is a one hole shooter. It likes that warm load and the stouter recoil does not bother me. I use it because it is most accurate. Running at 7.2 of HS-6 also yields an accurate load, but it leaves significant amounts of unburned powder. This most likely will cause some deviation and spread. All other charges tend to open the groups up.

The Red Dot doesn't "push" as much as snap, like you stated. However, if I reduce to 4.0 grains where I see no primer cratering, the recoil feels like that of a .22. There's no way I could even be close to ball ammo velocities. Is this powder not suitable to push velocity much past 800 ft/sec with lead?

I highly doubt the primers are the culprit. I know primers vary in cup thickness. But like Steve said, there's no point in reading primers in low pressure rounds. I just don't understand why I am seeing pressure signs when I am not close to max, nor should I see pressure signs unless I am really over doing it...in which case, shouldn't I be lobbing those nuggets well over 850 ft/sec if I were, and I'd certainly notice some recoil.

Or can I contribute the HS-6's stout recoil from the escaping gas? Quickload generally shows HS-6 not reaching peak pressures until after the round has already existed the muzzle. Is most of the recoil attributed to the gas? If I can make major PF level with red dot with 4.0-4.2 grains I'd feel like I were cheating in any competition!

[Nick_C_S]

Is this powder (Red Dot) not suitable to push velocity much past 800 ft/sec with lead?

On paper Red Dot should be able to push a 230g slug to 800 fps. But sometimes the real world gets in the way. When I hear talk of making major PF and such, that means it's time for a chronograph. Without one, we're just kind of speculating.

I spend a lot time loading and shooting 38 revolvers these days, and have kind of set aside my 45 ACP endeavors for a bit. And I haven't loaded with Red Dot in a long time. It's a shotgun powder. I remember it behaving better in 45 ACP than most other calibers - but if memory serves, I think it preferred a lighter bullet (not sure though). Cratered primers will raise an eyebrow. But it isn't necessarily a problem. I've seen a bunch over the years.

As for HS-6 - yes, it likes to be loaded up to run clean. But if it's doing what you want it to do, and don't mind a little fouling, stick with it. I do wish this powder shortage would ease up. I grabbed my share of HS-6 in the Autumn of '13. I'm glad I did because I haven't seen it since (it's popped up on gunbot a time or two). I still have just less than 2lbs. I like HS-6. For me, it finds duty (in order of usage) in 10mm, 45ACP, 9mm, and hot 357 Mag rounds.

[the jigger]

Red Dot and 45Acp have been my choice for over 20yrs. I use a 200gr RN
from Rainier. I have never had issues of any kind.

[g.willikers]

How on earth did we ever successfully reload ammo before chronographs were available??
By felt recoil, if memory serves.
And how the cases looked.
How hard they extracted.
The trajectory.
What the bullets did to the targets,
And other signs that still can serve us well.
So, don't panic if everything else feels right, flattened primers or no.

[44 AMP]

It's not the Red Dot, alone, its the Red Dot, your charge, your other components, AND YOUR GUN, all together.

A quick check in an old book shows Red Dot max being around 5gr for 225/230gr bullets (5.3gr in the Lyman manual). Half a grain (or even a full grain) isn't very much weight. As others have mentioned, check your scale, and check your powder delivery system (measure?) You might not be actually getting what you think you are getting.

Another factor is the primers. ANY change can change what is "normal" in appearance. Even changes in lot#s can have an effect, though they seldom do.

Probably the most important factory is your gun. FORGET what the books say as max, when you get pressure signs, you should consider that load MAX for that particular combination. And that combination includes YOUR gun.

It doesn't matter (much) if the load is close to the listed max, or somewhere below it if you are getting cratered primers then its max for your gun with that combination of components. And, by MAX, I mean where you ought to stop, NOT what is dangerous and will blow up your gun. The point is to stop before you reach that point.

I once had a load (using Unique) that drove the 200gr Speer JHP at a clocked 998fps from a 4.25" barrel SIg P220. Recoil was "snappy" but there were no pressure signs on the primer or case.

SAME ammo, one mag fired through my buddies comp'd 1911A1 pin gun, every round had badly cratered primers. IT wasn't the ammo, it was the combination of the ammo, and the gun. Not all combinations are suitable. Not all guns will handle things the same, and while most do behave very similarly, there are exceptions.

If your weights are spot on, and you are delivering the right charge weight, then its your gun, and that particular mix of components you are using.

WLP primers might or might not give you the same results with the same load in your gun. Only testing will tell you.

No matter what the published data says you ought to be able to do, what you can actually do is dependent on your gun, and your combination of components, and can be quite different from the ones they used testing their data.

If you get cratered primers, it's a sign. Don't increase the powder any more, and consider backing off a bit. No matter what kind of performance you are getting from the muzzle. IF its not the performance you want, then you need to look at a different combination of components, for your gun.

If you have access to a different .45, test some of that load in it, and see what it does. It might be different. Then again, it might not. Only testing (shooting) will tell you.

[Brotherbadger]

I'm currently running basically the same recipe. 4.5 red dot, 230gr hard cast(wlp primer though). I haven't seen any signs of high pressure.

[Gregory Gauvin]

Thanks all. I will start over again at minimum and work up using WLP primers. My local shop ran out and only stocked the Remingtons.

My scale is in check.

I'm definitely not a fan of Red Dot. It doesn't meter that well. I see fluctuations as much as .1 to .2 grains per throw. My powder thrower meters all my other powders very accurately. I stocked up on IMR 4756 while my local shop had it. I can't wait until HS-6 finds it way back onto the market.

Looking through my brass...I have used the remington primers with HS-6, and they hit fine.

Even if 4.5 grains is MAX in MY gun...I'm still surprised as my manual calls for 1.190" minimum COAL. I generally seat longest OAL I can. In previous tests, I have worked up to 8.4 grains of HS-6 with no pressure signs. That load, although not very accurate, has substantial recoil. With 4.5 grains of Red Dot which begins signs of primer cratering, my shells are not walloping into another dimension. They are ejecting quite gracefully 2-3 feet. I also put a light coat of Lee Liquid Alox on my bullets.

I assume it is safe to say, Red Dot is only well suited in the .45 acp for reduced loads, not to exceed 810 ft/sec.

[Gregory Gauvin]

I was doing a little reading and stumbled across this:

For instance, low pressure sometimes pushes the cup backward part way out
of the pocket, then the pressure builds and pushes the case backward
over the top of the primer, fully seating it again. But in the mean time,
the cup tries to form itself around the firing pin and into the firing pin hole.
This isn't due to excessive pressure, just the manner in which low pressure
was applied.


My primers are more "cratered" than flattened. I measured the case webs from my HS-6 loads, and standard factory ball. My Red Dot loads do not exhibit any case bulging or excessive expansion. As a matter of fact, they measure exactly the same as all my brass.

Because I am seating my bullets to 1.250" as opposed to 1.190" as per manual, is it possible, I am running the pressure too low with these Remington primers?

[44 AMP]

For instance, low pressure sometimes pushes the cup backward part way out
of the pocket, then the pressure builds and pushes the case backward
over the top of the primer, fully seating it again. But in the mean time,
the cup tries to form itself around the firing pin and into the firing pin hole.

I have seen this happen, but I don't think it applies to your situation, as it only happens in REVOLVERS. In other designs, the base of the case is flush (tight) against the boltface. There is simply no place for the primer to back out "into" and then have the case reseated on it from the pressure.

In a revolver, there is a space between the base of the cartridge and the recoil shield, which the firing pin reaches through to strike the primer. So a primer can be backed out, and reseated in a revolver because there is room for that to happen.

[Gregory Gauvin]

I will have to agree with you, 44 AMP. My loads below 4.3 did not crater, and would be less pressure than any load above that charge. The cratering also seem to worsen from 4.3 to 4.5, not improve.

What stumbles me is not the fact I am not near a maximum load or the fact that the low pressure .45 should ever really see pressure signs unless it was really getting up there. I am mostly concerned that I am getting pressure signs at a ridiculously low velocity. I would think, before pressure signs occurred, the load would be reaching at least 850 ft/sec and would recoil with more authority then the very light recoil I experience. Those who chronographed WWB claim velocities in the neighborhood of 760 ft/sec. That's exactly where I would put my velocity at in terms of felt recoil.

If I were loading my rounds to a very short OAL I wouldn't raise an eyebrow to this either. But at 1.250", seating depth is not affecting my pressure - if anything reducing it. If I'm cratering at almost midload and reduced my OAL to minimum God knows what could happen.

[44 AMP]

It is possible the batch of primers you have has unusually soft cups. No way to tell from here, of course. Get some different primers and see if you get significantly different results.

What does the edge of the fired primer cup look like? Is it the original curved "corner" or has the metal flowed out to the edge of the case primer pocket?
(a good pic would help)

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Can you post a pic of the primers/casings? This might help more than anything at this point.

[Gregory Gauvin]

Top Left: Remington 2 1/2 primer, starting load with Red Dot.
Top Right: WLP with HS-6

Both appear to be normal.

Bottom row. All Remington 2 1/2 primers with Red Dot. Did not exceed published mid load data. Primers not flattening around the edges, but all have the cratering appearance. The primer hit on the Remington 2 1/2 (on top) is significantly deeper than that of the WLP primer. Excessively soft primers perhaps and not pressure issue?



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[243winxb]

Seen this before. Short chamber had to be opened .017" with a finish reamer. But first you should try adjusting the OAL by .020" at a time. This will change the timing of the secondary pressure spike, when the bullet contacts the rifling. Rounds must feed & still fit the chamber. What firearm, make/model?

[243winxb]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=509981 See photos & post 16. Note that Red Dot burn rate is even faster than Bullseye or 700X.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Have you done a plunk test? Double checked length? Looks more like a spike from rifling contact by the bullet to me! Some barrels have shorter chambers and seat differently.

[Gregory Gauvin]

I have chosen my OAL by doing the drop test. I do believe I may have been spiking pressures by having the bullet contact the rifling, as I didn't leave much room to play around with. 1.260" OAL will generally not chamber into battery and will result in having my to thumb the slide. I discovered this when developing my loads for HS-6. I had to reduce the OAL to 1.250" to have 100% reliable chambering. I removed the barrel and performed the drop test. 1.250" passed, but with the faster Red Dot powder I probably need to rework load development with 1.230".

I am running a stock PT1911 "factory match grade" barrel. The frame and slide are also Taurus, but all internals replaced with quality parts. Master gunsmith for Kimber also tuned my trigger to a crisp 3 1/4 #. Despite the bad rap the PT1911 may have received (and by all means, I am no fan of the finish or factory trigger / parts) the frame to slide fit is tight, and picking up a used one years ago on the cheap and putting in some custom work to it, I have no doubt will shoot circles around guns 2-3x as much.

[243winxb]

Just my thoughts above, something to try. I read online that a shorter OAL may raise pressure, be careful. SAAMI does show Standard & Match listings for the 45acp. Could it be that a tight match grade barrel will produce more pressure than a sloppy GI type barrel? http://www.saami.org/specifications_...ex.cfm?page=CC For 50 yds slow fire, i seat to just touch the rifling with 3.8gr Bullseye & 200gr lswc. A light target loading. Timed & rapid fire rounds get a shorter OAL. Click photo for larger. [IMG][/IMG] Let us know if you find the reason why the primers look that way.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

I had to reduce the OAL to 1.250" to have 100% reliable chambering. I removed the barrel and performed the drop test. 1.250" passed, but with the faster Red Dot powder I probably need to rework load development with 1.230".

Your max load is 5.1gr and your minimum OAL is 1.126" so if you start back at 4.5gr you will be fine as far as pressure and OAL. 4.59gr would be your start load at a 10% reduction from max charge of 5.1gr i believe.