Need Lee FCD with RCBS seating die?

[sadams]

I have cast and loaded LRN in 9mm and Makarov for a while with no problems. Everything cycles great. I also shoot 1911s and an XD 45 acp, but haven't loaded this before. Just starting out loading 230gr rn cast lead bullets, some bought from Master Cast and others that I cast myself. Although my cast bullets are not as problematic as the bought ones, overall having some issues with cases not fitting chambers properly. Lots of good posts on this issue specifically on various forums written by people who know a lot more than I, and the consensus is that I need to do several things (which I will) including using a Lee Factory Crimp Die, that is, if I were using a Lee 3-die set. I don't have a Lee 3-die set. I have an RCBS 3- die set which I cannot use at the time because of a damaged part from the factory - waiting on replacement in the mail. In the meantime, I want to order a Lee Factory Crimp Die IF I need it. So there is my question: when using the RCBS 3-die set, do I also need the Factory Crimp Die as I would if I were using the Lee set?

[Nick_C_S]

Oh boy. A LEE FCD post. Hold on to your hat sadams - it's gonna be a bumpy ride.

You have described my setup for 45 ACP: RCBS 3 die set, and a Lee FCD. I seat with the RCBS seater die; followed by the Lee FCD in a separate crimping operation.

It's anecdotal because I have conducted no formal scientific testing. But at the very least, it sure seems I have fewer failure to feed (FTF) problems with ammo that I have run through a LEE FCD. So much so, that after I tried my first batch of FCD crimped ammo, I went back and "retro crimped" all my other existing 45 ACP handloaded ammo. It seems to make a bigger difference with .452" (usually, but not always lead) slugs, as opposed to .451's."

I didn't have a lot of FTF problems before my FCD, but it virtually eliminated the FTF's since I started using it.

How necessary is it? I dunno. There's nothing magic about a Lee FCD. It just has a collar at its base that "sizes down" (but not all the way down to true "resize" dimensions) the case mouth area - eliminating bulging that may adversely effect feeding.

There's also a school of thought that says if you "need" to use a Lee FCD, then you "need" to go back and learn how to load ammo properly. I'm going to call horse feathers on that one. I know how to load ammo. Bulging happens sometimes - no matter how your dies are set.

There are others who will chime in that a Redding Profile Crimp Die is the way to go. It could be. I have no experience with it. But I've heard lots of good things about them here on TFL. I'm completely satisfied with my above mentioned set up; so I feel no compulsion to get one.

[serf 'rett]

Bump...

Loading 45Auto, 40S&W and 9mm, over 25K lead and plated, with RCBS dies only. No problems to date.

[Shotgun Slim]

I use RCBS dies for my pistol reloading with no complaints. I do use the FCD on all autopistol rounds without exception.For one thing,having that die lets me employ the Lee bulge buster kit that I especially need for my .40. Also I seat then crimp in separate operations which goes a bit faster with separate dies. Side benefit of FCD is most of the completed round goes through a sizer ring which in my mind "proofs" it for chamber fit. Side issue is if your brass is on the thick side-think PMC- then the die will swage the bullet to a greater length as that is the weakest point if something has to give. I have had completed rounds grow by as much as 2 1/2 thousandths which is no big deal for me because I'm never pushing the limits on oal anyway. I know there is one bullet company that recommends against the FCD because of the swaging issue on it's plated bullets but I load coated and plated bullets with no problems that I know of.

[AFK]

I have no experience with the LEE FCD and cast bullets, but have read that it can size a CAST bullet down too much to where it resizes it and thus can cause leading when fired. I am just getting in to casting my own and plan to use Hornady seating/crimp dies. I use them when loading jacketed bullets and really like them.

[mikld]

The Lee FCD for 45 ACP resizes the case as it crimps. If your cases are bulging (even with .452" cast bullets) resizing them just covers up the problem. Measure the case after each operation and find when/where a bulge occurs, then fix it. (I have reloaded a few thousand semi-auto rounds without using a Lee FCD, and yes I tried a Lee FCD, and if my dies are adjusted properly, no problems). Micrometers are a reloader's friend...

[Nick_C_S]

Measure the case after each operation and find when/where a bulge occurs, then fix it.

Or, you can skip measuring each and every one and just crimp with the Lee FCD.

Two schools of thought.

[mikld]

I'm surely not the world's greatest reloader, no considered an expert, but I like to make my ammo correctly, without any "cover up" tactics. I've only been reloading full time (meaning no year long gaps, but started in '69) since '86 and even though I have only been reloading semi-auto ammo for 13 years, I learned to assemble them right. If a bulge stops my ammo from feeding/chambering, I want to know why, and fix it, not just cover it up. Perhaps no difference will show up at the target, but I was taught, from a very early age to "do it right the first time". So, I reload all my handgun ammo without an FCD, and get it right the first time without hiding errors. Yes, I have tried Lee's FCDs out of curiosity, but they now reside in a landfill somewhere in Southern Oregon.

Personally I don't care what a person uses to reload his ammo, but I do object to new reloaders being told an FCD is the best way to go to get warped/bulged cartridges into the gun's chamber. Reload it right and there is no need for a post seating sizing die.

Think of those bizillion of 45 ACP rounds reloaded prior to Lee's FCD introduction...

[spacecoast]

Reload it right and there is no need for a post seating sizing die.

Were each and every case exactly the same, with no variations in length or wall thickness, and each and every bullet you load exactly the same diameter in a given caliber, I would agree. However, variations exist and do sometimes result in minor bulges that are most easily fixed with the FCD (IMHO). Not to mention the ease and simplicity of crimping in a separate step. I use it for all handgun rounds (revolver and semi), whether needed or not, and have found it to be most useful and necessary when loading .45 ACP full wadcutters from Penn.

[mkl]

Before buying the Lee die, you may want to try seating and crimping as two separate steps.

Adjust your seating die so that the case lip (mouth) does not touch the crimp shoulders in the RCBS die and then seat the bullet.

Back the seating stem all the way out and then run the die down until it removes the flare that you put into the case, e.g. crimp the cartridge until the case mouth looks like a factory load.

In my experience most of the bulges that the Lee die will "iron out" are a result of seating and crimping at the same time. Yes, it can be done, but to do it correctly takes a bit of trial and error and everything has to be just right.

[GWS]

The Lee Factory Crimp Die IS a separate crimp die, so therefore, you can crimp in a separate step.

LFC's made for semi-auto pistols taper crimp. Therefore you can adjust the die to do just that .... taper crimp. You don't have to resize anything, since you don't have to adjust it all the way to Lee's recommendations.

The tool is great for those who have sized and seated and the case won't chamber well (maybe you have a few hundred) and you can post size them to fit following Lee's instructions....or...you can use it as a very inexpensive separate taper crimper.

I haven't used one made for revolver calibers, so I can't comment on those, except to say the crimp is a unique style roll crimp....

[TMD]

Kind of makes you wonder how in the world anyone in the last century successfully reloaded without the Lee FCD. Set your dies up properly and it won't be needed.

[jcwit]

TMD, you beat me to it.

How true!

[Nick_C_S]

The Lee FCD "does it right the first time." It's just another crimp die. The only thing thing that makes it different is the size collar.

Setting dies up is easy. I've been setting mine up properly for over 30 years. But that doesn't mean there can't be the occasional case bulge. This can occur with dies that are "properly set up." The Lee FCD corrects this phenomen - it does it right the first time - with one stroke of the handle.

[Bart B.]

Why do people shooting centerfire pistol competitions shoot factory loads to get the best scores that win the big matches and set records and no FCD die touched those brand new irregular case mouths?

[mikld]

Yep, seems like FCD fans will "defend it to the death", "my way, right or wrong"...

[Pond, James Pond]

I fail to see how a method that yields a serviceable, useable, gun-customised round is somehow "not doing it right".

If that method happens to use the FCD or happens to work without it, who cares?!

Which ever means is being employed, the end results make for lots of lead down range. Surely that is the most important.

I get a feeling there is a bit of snobbery on this topic.

I personally do use an FCD because I find it infinitely easier than trying to set-up my seating die to crimp as well. I load four, soon to be five or six, different .44 loads. I don't load thousands at a time. I go from Magnum to Special.

Using the FCD makes the seat and crimp stages soooo much easier. Why should that be doing it wrong, any more than doing it without is right. I'm sure I could load the same ammo without the FCD, but I would have lost hair and gained blood pressure in the process. Should I feel a failure? I think not.

So am I a fan of the FCD? Yes.
Do I think should use it at every given opportunity? Only if it gets me where I want to be with greater ease.
What do I think if someone tells me that I am doing it all wrong because I have it on my turret? I think: the fact I have reloaded my own ammo says otherwise.

I say do what gets you the ammo that you want.

In answer to the OP's question, as I understand it, you don't need it in the Lee kit either: You can seat and crimp with the bullet seater.
The FCD is just an alternative in the kit that for me makes the whole process easier.
So if you think it will make your loading easier, go for it.

[buck460XVR]

I fail to see how a method that yields a serviceable, useable, gun-customised round is somehow "not doing it right".

If that method happens to use the FCD or happens to work without it, who cares?!

Kinda my philosophy PJP, and I have yet to own a FCD, even tho I too load for pistols along with revolvers. If it works for you and you are happy with it, so be it. If you are having problems with your rounds and can find no other way to fix the problem other than the FCD, then I assume the FCD is the only solution. Seems the only real problem with the FCD is the possible loss of neck tension when using lead bullets, resulting in bullet setback. If this is not a problem for those folks that use the FCD, I don't see any issue with it, nor do I see a reason for others to chastise their use of it.

[mikld]

As I stated before; it makes no difference to me what tools anybody uses to reload. You can just a piece of water pipe and a 6 penny nail, I don't care. It is easy to reload ammo with properly adjusted dies (if one cares to adjust them) and my objection comes when a new reloader is being told to "not fix the problem, just run the round through an FCD, and your problems go away". I have successfully been reloading ammo for various handguns for nearly 30 years (with 2 semi-auto calibers for 13 years) all using lead bullets, and in that time I have found no need for a post loading sizing die. If I encounter a problem, I fix it, I don't hide it. But use what you like, just don't lie to new comers...

No offense intended, just what I've learned...

[Snyper]

I have no experience with the LEE FCD and cast bullets, but have read that it can size a CAST bullet down too much to where it resizes it and thus can cause leading when fired.

I can't think of any logical reason why that could be possible

[Snyper]

Why do people shooting centerfire pistol competitions shoot factory loads to get the best scores that win the big matches and set records and no FCD die touched those brand new irregular case mouths?

So you're saying factory loads have no FACTORY crimp?

[Pond, James Pond]

my objection comes when a new reloader is being told to "not fix the problem, just run the round through an FCD, and your problems go away"

I, once more, fail to see how a method that yields cartridges satisfactory to one's needs is suddenly indicative of a problem, just because a Lee FCD is part of that method...

If there is a problem with the cartridge and adjusting the bullet seating and crimping die sorts it out, the problem is fixed.

If there is a problem with the cartridge and running it through the FCD sorts it out, the problem is fixed.

Why should the first of those be "right" and the second be "wrong"?
Why can't they either be right if it works?

Forgive me, but if the above is true then telling them the FCD is "not right" is equally lying to them, IMHO.

[buck460XVR]

I can't think of any logical reason why that could be possible

Because you are taking a bullet that is properly sized for your firearm and resizing it to a smaller diameter. Undersized cast bullets=leading. This is similar to what I stated in my post about the loss of neck tension. Brass tends to spring back a bit when resized, lead does not. Using the FCD and having this happen can lead to a loss of neck tension. Many claim this is due when folks adjust the FCD improperly. Many folks claim others need the FCD because their regular dies are adjusted improperly. I dunno, but the chance of resizing cast bullets using th FCD is there and the phenomenon has been witnessed(or at least claimed) by many.

If I had a bunch of ammo already loaded that did not chamber and instead of having to pull several hundred bullets, I could use the FCD for a quick fix, I would go that route instead of pulling. That does not mean I would not attempt to discover the original problem. My guns may have chambers that are not fussy. I may be lucky and always get the dies adjusted correctly. I dunno, but I have yet had the need for a FCD. That could at some point change tho.

[Snyper]

Because you are taking a bullet that is properly sized for your firearm and resizing it to a smaller diameter.

If the OP's bullets were "properly sized" there wouldn't be a thread at all

If the die is set up properly also, I see no way it will make the bullets small enough to offset obturation on firing

[Bart B.]

So, Snyper, you think I'm saying factory loads have no FACTORY crimp?

No. I'm not. If I did, I would have said that.

I didn't put "Lee" before "FCD" because I thought readers would take that sentence in topic context. Shame on me for making such an assumption. The factory ammo I'm referring to has a precision roll crimp on rimmed cases with full wad cutter bullets seated below case mouth or a very slight, usually invisible, taper crimp on rimless case mouths with jacketed wad cutter or round nose bullets.