Loading "+P" 45 ammo

Ritz · October 9, 2014, 09:50 PM

Looking for some tried and true recipes for 500-550 ft/lbs of muzzle energy out of a standard 5" 1911. I've ordered my dies, but am still researching powder/primers/bullets. I'm thinking something along the lines of a 200gr JHP. I bought a few hundred Winchester 230gr FMJ that I'll be using for targets and then plan to recycle the brass with something more suitable for defense purposes.

Suggestions greatly appreciated.

Best,

jimbob86 · October 9, 2014, 10:04 PM

550 ft/lbs? With a 230gr bullet?

You'd have to push a 230gr bullet nearly supersonic to get there ...... that's gonna beat your gun to death in short order.

The gun was designed to push a bullet of 230gr just over 800 f/sec. You want 25% more velocity? TANSTAAFL.

It's your gun, I guess .....

JD0x0 · October 9, 2014, 10:14 PM

Vihtavouri has some pretty nice loads. AFAIK they're considered standard pressure, but a max load of N350 should be pushing 200 grain bullets to right around 1000fps (444 ft-lbs). N340 claims about 1040fps (480ft-lbs) with a max load.
Not quite the 550ft-lbs you're looking for, but that's actually very stout for .45 acp. That's almost getting into '.45 super' territory. It's going to be hard on the cases, and your gun.

chris in va · October 9, 2014, 10:16 PM

Quote:

. 550 ft/lbs? With a 230gr bullet?

He said 200gr.

My Lyman manual shows 4756 can push a 200gr JHP to 961fps within safe limits. I couldn't tell you what ft/lbs that equates to but it's certainly potent.

Ritz · October 9, 2014, 10:22 PM

Yep, I was thinking 200gr bullets. Am I being too ambitious? I don't want to beat up my new 1911. Just looking for a potent home defense (and occasional noisemaker for curious black bears) when I'm not target shooting with Winchester 230gr FMJ rounds.

This will be my first foray into reloading pistol rounds (well, unless you think of 38-55 winchester as a really long pistol round).

Best,

jimbob86 · October 9, 2014, 10:46 PM

Quote:

My Lyman manual shows 4756 can push a 200gr JHP to 961fps within safe limits. I couldn't tell you what ft/lbs that equates to but it's certainly potent.

961x961x200/450436= roughly 410 ft/lbs.

Potent, yes.

Nowhere near 500, much less 550.

I memorized the formula and constant back when I was trying to make hot pin loads ..... what I found was the gun (springs, firing pin, ejector, mostly) and brass took a beating and the pins didn't fly off the table appreciably faster when hit with a bullet going 900 f/sec than they did with one going 850 ..... FWIW, 6.4gr of Vihtavouri N-340 will give you 850 or so with a plated 230 grain bullet...... 6.7 will beat your gun on a hot day......

For home defense loads, I suggest you find out what brand of factory JHP the local PD uses, and try it. If it works well in your gun, use that. That way if you ever shoot a goblin with it, and the prosecution asks why you used bullets that expand to cause damage like that, you say "that's what the Mayberry PD uses to defend themselves- I thought it would work for me as well....." ..... handload your practice ammo, your plinking ammo, your gaming ammo ..... but splurge a bit on SD factory ammo: Buffremchesternady-tech, Inc. has a much bigger R&D budget, and more importantly, a much bigger Legal Dept. budget than you do.

**44 AMP** · October 9, 2014, 11:03 PM

While I am a 1911 fan, and you can "powder for power) a bit in the 1911A1, over standard ball ammo, its NOT a good gun for really hot loads.

I've got a load that throws the Speer 200gr jhp at a clocked 998fps from a 4.25" barrel Sig P220. (is well above published data, so I will not post it here)

Shot fine, VERY snappy recoil, cases actually being thrown forward of the firing line, sometimes. NO visual pressure signs.

Same ammo, fired in a friend's 1911 comp'd pin gun, worked ok, badly cratered primers.

I don't think you can reach .357mag energy levels in a stock 1911A1 .45ACP at safe pressures.

OF course, you're welcome to try, just be prepared to pay the costs that will result.

Pathfinder45 · October 10, 2014, 12:44 AM

That is a perfectly valid excuse to get a Blackhawk 45 Colt.

Nick_C_S · October 10, 2014, 12:49 AM

For hot 45 ACP rounds, I use 185 JHP's. I shoot them through a full-size 1911 ('84 Colt Series 80).

My hottest round: 9.0g Power Pistol. 1083 fps; 482 ft/lbs. This load is well within compliance of Speer #14.

I have an HS-6 loading, but it's slightly less velocity (1052) than the one above. Further, it's slightly over the published max of Speer #14. And since Speer #14 is the only book at my disposal right now (I'm at work), I can't confirm it's in compliance with Sierra - which is where I probably got the recipe. I actually like the HS-6 recipe better. Less flash and recoil. It's a smoother round.

These are plenty hot for me. I consider my old Colt 1911 a target shooter and I only worked up some hot recipes for the zombie apocalypse.

The hottest round I ever put through it was Buffalo Bore 185 JHP's. 1152 fps; 545 ft/lbs. They're not good for the gun.

Ritz · October 10, 2014, 06:54 AM

Appreciate everyone's comments. Love this place.

I like the idea about moving to a 185gr JHP bullet and shooting for 1000-1050fps.

Best,

g.willikers · October 10, 2014, 08:24 AM

A is A.
Like the others have said, a 1911 wasn't meant to be a magnum.
There's plenty of others that are.
If you want or need more power, why not get one of them?
The hottest load I've tried in a 1911, using a 200 grain SWC, made 950 f/s.
It seemed ok, no obvious objections, not even excessive leading.
But it felt like the limit.
Never saw a need for it, and didn't keep the recipe.
The increase in energy isn't really enough in the real world to justify the possible stress on the equipment.
You'll mostly just be entertaining your chronograph.
500+ ft/lbs is still a long way from what real boomers produce.

Ritz · October 10, 2014, 10:51 AM

Not really after a magnum. I've already got a nice .357 wheel gun for that. Just trying to sort out a decent defensive round to load from the cases liberated by bog standard FMJ target practice. Perhaps I'll just reload them for target plinking and pick up some Winchester silvertips or Hornady critical defense rounds and call it a day.

Best,

243winxb · October 10, 2014, 10:52 AM

Alliant data for

Quote:

Blue Dot 45 Auto 200 gr Speer GDHP Speer 1.2 4.4 CCI 300 Blue Dot 10.5 1,010 fps.

I used this data with my cast 200 gr lswc in a S&W 645. Not for a 1911 IMO.

buck460XVR · October 10, 2014, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ritz:

Looking for some tried and true recipes for 500-550 ft/lbs of muzzle energy out of a standard 5" 1911.

This will be my first foray into reloading pistol rounds.

Did you look in your published manuals or online manuals from powder manufacturers? If you cannot find them there, coming here and asking for "tried and true" is basically fruitless and you are chasing a rainbow. If you don't find a tested and verified safe load using the components you have producing the velocities and energy you desire.....there's a reason for it. Pretty simple. If you don't have manuals or know how to access on-line powder manufacturers manuals, you probably shouldn't be loading your own ammo.

I ain't trying to be a arse or critical. But as simple as reloading is, it still takes common sense and diligence to procedure. A new handloader going to a online forum and asking for exceptionally "hot" load recipes from random folks online he does not know, demonstrates neither. There's more at stake here than just damage to your gun.

RickB · October 10, 2014, 11:41 AM

Check into .45 Super. It's dimensionally the same as .45 Auto, but runs at 50% higher pressure. You'll need to make a few simple mods to the gun - a 32# recoil spring not being one of them - and you can get ballistics much improved over .45 Auto.
I've just started on it, and my first powder selection gave 200@970fps from a 6" barrel. I expect Power Pistol and/or AA #7 powder to get close to 1200fps.

g.willikers · October 10, 2014, 11:51 AM

Quote:

pick up some Winchester silvertips or Hornady critical defense

Sounds like a much better plan.
The much respected Critical Defense loads aren't up where you were trying to do.
More like 400 ft-lbs.
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-ACP-...tical-Defense/

jimbob86 · October 10, 2014, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Just trying to sort out a decent defensive round

230gr @ 850 is pretty decent...... with a good expanding bullet, it oughta do for anything that didn't call for a rifle or shotgun in the first place ......

g.willikers · October 10, 2014, 12:10 PM

Here's some hot stuff, about what you are trying to do, made by experts:
http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.p...product_id=644

Here's some Super ammo, with some precautions:
http://www.underwoodammo.com/45super.aspx
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...duct_list&c=15

AKhog · October 10, 2014, 04:09 PM

Shooting 45 +P+, 45 Super or even 460 Rowland, the first thing I would make sure of is your barrel of choice has a fully supported chamber. The kinds of pressure that those cartridges develop, especially the Rowland, can cause case head failures in unsupported cases.

SpringOWeiler · October 10, 2014, 05:34 PM

You need 1100fps to reach the middle of that energy figure. I suggest you use your slower burning powders. And you may have to redfine your level of success. Can you do it without blowing primers out and having substantial separation rings around the base? Probably not. IF that's fine maybe you can.

MightyMO1911 · October 10, 2014, 10:21 PM

You would need a 200 grain bullet going over 1100 fps to achieve it. I'm not sure I've ever been seen a load that will do it and if I did. I sure wouldn't be the guy pulling the trigger.

DAVID NANCARROW · October 11, 2014, 08:54 AM

My Accurate manual lists +P loads for the XTP line. Pretty stiff charge of AA#5 will launch a 185gr bullet at 1192 fps using Remington +P brass.

For the 200 gr weight, max load of AA#7 at 1112 fps.

Both loads listed at 23000 PSI

std7mag · October 11, 2014, 09:05 AM

I'm using Blue Dot in my 200gr XTP loads. Course my barrel is only 4", so I lose quite a bit of velocity.

Would recommend 185 gr. XTP's pushed by some Accurate #7.

If you can find Accurate #7 that is...

I'm still looking.

243winxb · October 11, 2014, 10:19 AM

A 45acp , 230gr at 800fps is plenty. Testing showed bullets did not need to expand. (Ammo Test) After the FBI shootout in Miami in 1986, ammo testing was done. Out of this testing, the 10mm was born. To much power for most, so the 40S&W came about. My 2" bbl 38 special is the one that needs all the help it can get with fancy bullets and velocity.

madmo44mag · October 11, 2014, 11:01 AM

I have never tried to hot load a 45 acp round as the round nor the gun were really designed for those pressures and physical abuse.
I have over loaded many pistol calibers for revolvers and will tell you be very careful.
Revolvers are better designed for over pressure rounds than auto loaders.
I’ve blown revolvers up doing this so be advised if this is for SD gun pick the right caliber and gun and use factory ammo and become proficient with it.
Now I understand the need to push the envelope and have done so for many years but NEVER in an auto loading pistol.
The cases and guns are just not suited for this abuse IMHO.
As for a carry gun in the woods I would never consider a 1911 style pistol.
Here again this is revolver country IMO.
Never jams, magnum heavy rounds with good penetration a moderate distance.
Can’t ask that bear to wait while you clear an jam.

October 10, 2014, 12:49 AM	#9
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,617	185 JHP's For hot 45 ACP rounds, I use 185 JHP's. I shoot them through a full-size 1911 ('84 Colt Series 80). My hottest round: 9.0g Power Pistol. 1083 fps; 482 ft/lbs. This load is well within compliance of Speer #14. I have an HS-6 loading, but it's slightly less velocity (1052) than the one above. Further, it's slightly over the published max of Speer #14. And since Speer #14 is the only book at my disposal right now (I'm at work), I can't confirm it's in compliance with Sierra - which is where I probably got the recipe. I actually like the HS-6 recipe better. Less flash and recoil. It's a smoother round. These are plenty hot for me. I consider my old Colt 1911 a target shooter and I only worked up some hot recipes for the zombie apocalypse. The hottest round I ever put through it was Buffalo Bore 185 JHP's. 1152 fps; 545 ft/lbs. They're not good for the gun. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

October 10, 2014, 08:24 AM	#11
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	A is A. Like the others have said, a 1911 wasn't meant to be a magnum. There's plenty of others that are. If you want or need more power, why not get one of them? The hottest load I've tried in a 1911, using a 200 grain SWC, made 950 f/s. It seemed ok, no obvious objections, not even excessive leading. But it felt like the limit. Never saw a need for it, and didn't keep the recipe. The increase in energy isn't really enough in the real world to justify the possible stress on the equipment. You'll mostly just be entertaining your chronograph. 500+ ft/lbs is still a long way from what real boomers produce. Last edited by g.willikers; October 10, 2014 at 08:37 AM.

October 11, 2014, 10:19 AM	#24
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,758	45acp bullet diameter will do the job. No need for high velocity or fancy bullets. A 45acp , 230gr at 800fps is plenty. Testing showed bullets did not need to expand. (Ammo Test) After the FBI shootout in Miami in 1986, ammo testing was done. Out of this testing, the 10mm was born. To much power for most, so the 40S&W came about. My 2" bbl 38 special is the one that needs all the help it can get with fancy bullets and velocity. Last edited by 243winxb; October 11, 2014 at 10:37 AM. Reason: added My 2" bbl 38 ...................

October 9, 2014, 09:50 PM	#1
Ritz Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2013 Location: Virginia Posts: 283	Loading "+P" 45 ammo Looking for some tried and true recipes for 500-550 ft/lbs of muzzle energy out of a standard 5" 1911. I've ordered my dies, but am still researching powder/primers/bullets. I'm thinking something along the lines of a 200gr JHP. I bought a few hundred Winchester 230gr FMJ that I'll be using for targets and then plan to recycle the brass with something more suitable for defense purposes. Suggestions greatly appreciated. Best,

October 9, 2014, 10:04 PM	#2
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	550 ft/lbs? With a 230gr bullet? You'd have to push a 230gr bullet nearly supersonic to get there ...... that's gonna beat your gun to death in short order. The gun was designed to push a bullet of 230gr just over 800 f/sec. You want 25% more velocity? TANSTAAFL. It's your gun, I guess .....

October 9, 2014, 10:14 PM	#3
JD0x0 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Posts: 1,037	Vihtavouri has some pretty nice loads. AFAIK they're considered standard pressure, but a max load of N350 should be pushing 200 grain bullets to right around 1000fps (444 ft-lbs). N340 claims about 1040fps (480ft-lbs) with a max load. Not quite the 550ft-lbs you're looking for, but that's actually very stout for .45 acp. That's almost getting into '.45 super' territory. It's going to be hard on the cases, and your gun.

October 9, 2014, 10:22 PM	#5
Ritz Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2013 Location: Virginia Posts: 283	Yep, I was thinking 200gr bullets. Am I being too ambitious? I don't want to beat up my new 1911. Just looking for a potent home defense (and occasional noisemaker for curious black bears) when I'm not target shooting with Winchester 230gr FMJ rounds. This will be my first foray into reloading pistol rounds (well, unless you think of 38-55 winchester as a really long pistol round). Best, Last edited by Ritz; October 9, 2014 at 10:30 PM.

October 9, 2014, 11:03 PM	#7
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 30,472	While I am a 1911 fan, and you can "powder for power) a bit in the 1911A1, over standard ball ammo, its NOT a good gun for really hot loads. I've got a load that throws the Speer 200gr jhp at a clocked 998fps from a 4.25" barrel Sig P220. (is well above published data, so I will not post it here) Shot fine, VERY snappy recoil, cases actually being thrown forward of the firing line, sometimes. NO visual pressure signs. Same ammo, fired in a friend's 1911 comp'd pin gun, worked ok, badly cratered primers. I don't think you can reach .357mag energy levels in a stock 1911A1 .45ACP at safe pressures. OF course, you're welcome to try, just be prepared to pay the costs that will result. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

October 10, 2014, 12:44 AM	#8
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	That is a perfectly valid excuse to get a Blackhawk 45 Colt.

October 10, 2014, 06:54 AM	#10
Ritz Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2013 Location: Virginia Posts: 283	Appreciate everyone's comments. Love this place. I like the idea about moving to a 185gr JHP bullet and shooting for 1000-1050fps. Best,

October 10, 2014, 10:51 AM	#12
Ritz Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2013 Location: Virginia Posts: 283	Not really after a magnum. I've already got a nice .357 wheel gun for that. Just trying to sort out a decent defensive round to load from the cases liberated by bog standard FMJ target practice. Perhaps I'll just reload them for target plinking and pick up some Winchester silvertips or Hornady critical defense rounds and call it a day. Best,

October 10, 2014, 11:41 AM	#15
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,559	Check into .45 Super. It's dimensionally the same as .45 Auto, but runs at 50% higher pressure. You'll need to make a few simple mods to the gun - a 32# recoil spring not being one of them - and you can get ballistics much improved over .45 Auto. I've just started on it, and my first powder selection gave 200@970fps from a 6" barrel. I expect Power Pistol and/or AA #7 powder to get close to 1200fps.

October 10, 2014, 12:10 PM	#18
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Here's some hot stuff, about what you are trying to do, made by experts: http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.p...product_id=644 Here's some Super ammo, with some precautions: http://www.underwoodammo.com/45super.aspx https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...duct_list&c=15

October 10, 2014, 04:09 PM	#19
AKhog Member Join Date: May 12, 2014 Location: Los Anchorage, AK Posts: 71	Shooting 45 +P+, 45 Super or even 460 Rowland, the first thing I would make sure of is your barrel of choice has a fully supported chamber. The kinds of pressure that those cartridges develop, especially the Rowland, can cause case head failures in unsupported cases.

October 10, 2014, 05:34 PM	#20
SpringOWeiler Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2014 Location: Washington (Dry Side) Posts: 116	You need 1100fps to reach the middle of that energy figure. I suggest you use your slower burning powders. And you may have to redfine your level of success. Can you do it without blowing primers out and having substantial separation rings around the base? Probably not. IF that's fine maybe you can.

October 10, 2014, 10:21 PM	#21
MightyMO1911 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2014 Posts: 122	You would need a 200 grain bullet going over 1100 fps to achieve it. I'm not sure I've ever been seen a load that will do it and if I did. I sure wouldn't be the guy pulling the trigger.

October 11, 2014, 08:54 AM	#22
DAVID NANCARROW Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,761	My Accurate manual lists +P loads for the XTP line. Pretty stiff charge of AA#5 will launch a 185gr bullet at 1192 fps using Remington +P brass. For the 200 gr weight, max load of AA#7 at 1112 fps. Both loads listed at 23000 PSI

October 11, 2014, 09:05 AM	#23
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,611	I'm using Blue Dot in my 200gr XTP loads. Course my barrel is only 4", so I lose quite a bit of velocity. Would recommend 185 gr. XTP's pushed by some Accurate #7. If you can find Accurate #7 that is... I'm still looking.

October 11, 2014, 11:01 AM	#25
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	I have never tried to hot load a 45 acp round as the round nor the gun were really designed for those pressures and physical abuse. I have over loaded many pistol calibers for revolvers and will tell you be very careful. Revolvers are better designed for over pressure rounds than auto loaders. I’ve blown revolvers up doing this so be advised if this is for SD gun pick the right caliber and gun and use factory ammo and become proficient with it. Now I understand the need to push the envelope and have done so for many years but NEVER in an auto loading pistol. The cases and guns are just not suited for this abuse IMHO. As for a carry gun in the woods I would never consider a 1911 style pistol. Here again this is revolver country IMO. Never jams, magnum heavy rounds with good penetration a moderate distance. Can’t ask that bear to wait while you clear an jam.