410 single projectile loads

[Kyle2014]

Looking on this forum and on others I found a lot of information but not what I am looking for. During the 22 shortage I changed most of my 22s to 410/ ammo available and reloadable, but with a 22 I can reach ranges at lot further like 30-50 yards. Hears my problem, at 30+ yards the spread of shot is so much that I would not hunt anything at that range to inhumane, and there's no molds for 410 slugs. So using buck shot or 40 cal bullets I want one projectile that has range of 50 yards or so (no need for anything farther), and cant really find any information on how to reload something like this, any help would be of great help.

[Clark]

I have done it with 230 gr .452" jacketed and 405 gr .458" cast bullets.

I saw a Wards 410 that was OEM Stevens for $50 at a gun show and I bought it to overload it to see what would happen.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I used 7.62x54R brass cut down in the lathe and 45 Colt brass.

I eventually split the 0.385" choke with the 230 gr FMJ with what I would consider 450 Marlin levels. The Silver front sight fell out.

I eventually broke the Walnut stock wrist from recoil with the cast bullets and what I would consider 454 Casull double loads. That was with 45 Colt brass and large rifle primers. So much for the necessity of small rifle primer pockets in 454 brass.

[Kyle2014]

Um thanks for the info but that might be a little to strong of a load for small game hunting. But would be something I would like to check out.

[green_MTman]

im not sure about a 45 cal bullet in a .410,but they make slugs for the 3" mag chamber .410's and they get 1800 fps if its a 3" a standard 2 and 1/2" will only get 1200

people hunt deer with 410's but i dont know how many are rifled bbl's.so you may only get 50 yard accuracy

[Clark]

The 45 Colt was introduced in 1872.
The 410 was introduced in 1874.
The two .48"dia rimmed chambers have crossed paths a few times.

[green_MTman]

i certainly am wont disvalidate your knowledge because i have never loaded for the .410 but i had a friend who sluged the bore of a .410 weatherby shotgun and it measured as .408" dia.

[Gdawgs]

Ballistic Products has some 410 buck shot loads in their Small Bore Manual. 2.5" and 3" hulls that have 1, 2, or 3 pellets.

Should be able to get going with a small investment in hulls, overshot cards, and some of their wads designed for this.

I have been to their warehouse a couple times to pick some things up, and they seem pretty savvy. Give them a call and they will be able to help you out.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/

[44 AMP]

Point of order:

If you have a .410, DON"T SHOOT ANYTHING BUT .410!

Do NOT put .45 bullets in it, DO NOT work for high pressure loads. Shotguns are simply not built for that.

If you have a .45Colt/.410 you do NOT have a .410! You have a .45 that can shoot .410 shells. Big difference!

.410 slugs exist, I have a few boxes. Can't say the specific velocity, but they are nice and snappy when fired in my Contender.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

try .375 lead round balls ( weigh the balls & use choose a shot load conservatively, that uses that much lead shot )

I have a Contender, that I found a 10" 44 Hotshot barrel for ( TC's equal to 3".410, that used a 44 mag case, & long plastic shot capsules ) I reamed the chamber to 444, & use 444 Marlin cases, & load like a brass 3" .410 shot shell, using a load manual for .410... I load shot, & ball loads, & light loads using .429" bullets ( my barrel is rifled, & has a screw in choke tube, that has straight rifling in it, to counteract the twist rifling in the barrel, for shot loads )

my "shells" with 3 - .375 lead round balls shoot 1" groups at 25 ft, & 3" groups at 50ft out of a 10" barrel

the shotguns ( even bolt actions ) are much weaker than a rifle, so for safety, you must maintain pressures that don't exceed the shotgun pressures, so loading from a .410 manual is the only safe way, that "I" would feel comfortable with my loaded rounds

... & yup... I've got 10-12 boxes of .410 slugs... IMO, they would be OK for extending your range, but the slugs weight is actually much less than a 45 caliber handgun bullet, so the actual energy at the target, is less than "I" would want to use on deer sized game... but if accuracy were acceptable in your gun, they would be fine for smaller game

[Gdawgs]

I just noticed that there is a slug section at the end of the Ballistic Products Small Bore book. The slug is only 93 grains, but they get them going 2,400 fps with 3" hulls. Might be ok.

[SHR970]

I just noticed that there is a slug section at the end of the Ballistic Products Small Bore book. The slug is only 93 grains, but they get them going 2,400 fps with 3" hulls. Might be ok.

Would you be willing to share that info (even in PM)???? It is at least published data from a reputable source.

[44 AMP]

Winchester 3" .410 slug, 1/4oz slug, 1800fps
This info from the box (not a book)

1/4 oz is about 110gr (roughly)

I don't know what barrel length they used, I would assume 22" or longer.

Remington 2 1/2" slug is listed on the box as 1/5 oz which is 87.5gr. No velocity is listed on the box.

2,400fps sound awfully fast to me.

So, I do have to wonder about the (recent) popularity of the .410 as a defensive round in the Judge & Governor revolvers.

I don't know what velocity you get out of the revolvers, but I doubt very much that its 1800fps.

The .357 gets 500fps or so more from a rifle (depending on the load) so if we assume the .410 gets 1300 or 1400fps from a revolver (if you have the actual numbers, Please share them with us), then, at best, you get a 110gr .41 slug at 1400fps (and I think that's being generous).

Now, that's no slouch for a pistol round, but its not earth shattering power, either. personally, I think a 250gr .45 slug at 8-900fps (if you can get that) is a better bet for self defense, but that's just me.

I've got a box of Winchester 3" 000 buck (5 pellets). No mention of velocity. 1200fps and change is kind of standard speed for shot shells. Buckshot maybe as fast as slugs, 1600-1800fps? From shotgun barrels, not pistol barrels. 50yds and under, just the ticket for things up to coyote, but light for deer. Many states don't allow the .410 for deer.

I like the .410, for a light varmint & bird gun, but if you have it in a pistol, for defense, the .45 Colt would be my choice.

[Clark]

I have never loaded shot into a 410 round, only single projectiles.
What got me started was the strength analysis I did on a 45/70 Handi Rifle in 1999. Break action 410s in 2000 looked like much the same math problem to me. 410 Shotguns at gun shows looked like Handi Rifle strength for dirt cheap. They were $50 then, but I paid $75 for a minti NEF 410 a week ago, so 2.9% compounded increase in cost on 14 years is nearly the 3% I would expect.
The brass I have been using is:
1) 45 Colt
2) 7.62x54r cut down on the lathe
3) Magtech 2.5" 410 long brass
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/151...rass-box-of-25

I suppose I could use 45 auto rim with lathe work, but I have not.
But it is eclipsed by the 45 Colt brass, which fits the 410 chamber better than 410 brass. The 45 Colt brass even fits the 410 chamber better than it fits the 45 Colt chamber. How are those statements possible? The good fit slipped through the crack of sloppy SAAMI drawing tolerances.

Drawings aside, measuring actual brass and chambers:
410 brass: 0.473" to 0.463" taper
410 chamber: 0.480 to 0.473" taper
45 Colt brass: 0.477" to .470" taper
45 Colt Chamber: 0.484" to .481" taper

Both chambers are slightly tighter than their SAAMI drawings, but the brass is in spec.

The 410 bore is per SAAMI .410 to .430"
The 410 I bought last week measures .411" and is within spec.

What happens when the bullet transitions from a .473" chamber to a .411" bore?
I see it as two questions, that of chamber pressure and that of radial stress.
The chamber pressure changes from a bullet swaging down turns out to be counter intuitive for most people.

P.O. Ackley 1966 "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders Vol 2" chapter 7
"additional pressure tests":
"..30 cal barrel pressure barrel was fitted to the test gun, but the neck and throat was enlarged to accept the 8mm bullet, with the bore remaining the standard 30 caliber. A Remington factory 30-06 cartridge with the 150 gr bullet had been tested and previously gave 57,300 psi, for a velocity of 3030 fps. The the bullets were pulled from two more Remington 150 grain cartridges and were replaced with 8mm 150 grain bullets. To everyone's surprise, although the velocity was rather erratic, these loads averaged 2901 fps, with a pressure of 40,700 psi."

So oddly, the pressure does not go up [as most would expect] if the bullet can get started moving. Bullets pinched in a chamber are another issue.

The radial stress is not a problem the chamber to bore transition of .062" as the steel is 0.375" thick. But at the choke, the .036" transition maybe a problem for the NEF with 0.090" thick wall. I have an old Stevens here that is 0.072" thick barrel wall at the choke that did not like the .451" Montana Gold 230 gr FMJ swaged down to .410", accelerated to ~ 2000 fps, and then split the barrel at that 0.072" choke rather than get swaged down to .385" in a span of 10 micro seconds. That choke took a number of those bullets before failing and a number of 405 gr .458" cast bullets.

What does it all mean?
0.41" bullets trying to squeeze through a 0.385" choke is the problem with single projectile 410 handloads.

[Kyle2014]

Clark, 44 amp, magnum and others the info you provided is really ,really helpful.

[SHR970]

I don't know what barrel length they used, I would assume 22" or longer.

SAMMI spec is 26" full choke.

Winchester 3" .410 slug, 1/4oz slug, 1800fps

A touch less than achieveable by a 30 Carb. with the same weight partially due to wad column weight.

I've got a box of Winchester 3" 000 buck (5 pellets). No mention of velocity. 1200fps and change is kind of standard speed for shot shells.

They get around 1100 fps from a shotgun.......at least from my Rossi.28" barrel.

So, I do have to wonder about the (recent) popularity of the .410 as a defensive round in the Judge & Governor revolvers..

And those same buck loads according to sources I have read hit around 780 fps. from the pistols.

2,400fps sound awfully fast to me.

When looking at slugs I can see this happening. The Remchester slugs use card wads in their column including the over powder wad. If you change that out for a gas sealing wad like the Gualandi Mini-Bior you can easily gain 100 fps right there. The two reasons are less gas blow by at the wad and also a much lighter wad column. A 110 gr. slug with a plastic wad (think Brenneke) weighs around 116 gr. Each of the three card wads from an older 2 1/2" Win. slug weighs 4.2 gr. for 12.6 gr. + 98 gr. for the slug. The 3" 110 gr. slug gets 3 longer hard card wads for even more weight (closer to 130 gr. total). With a 93 gr. slug + 6 gr. for wad and we are looking at 99 - 100 gr. Add in more powder to the allowable pressure and you can get into that neighborhood (think 30 carbine with 85 gr. bullet). The newer Winchester slugs are using a plastic filler column to eliminate one of the card was but make up for it with a much thicker cardboard over powder wad that was not included in the earlier weight figures.

I will be interested to see the actual load data but I suspect one other variable that I am withholding due to guess work.

[Gdawgs]

Are you guys calling the BP Reloading Curmudgeon a liar??

Their slug load uses a 3" Cheddite hull, 28.0 grains of Lil Gun, and their "Light Game Slug with carrier(which appears to be a round ball). http://www.ballisticproducts.com/LGS...tinfo/0721641/

And I double checked the velocity they list, it is indeed 2400

I have not played around with buck shot or these slugs in 410, only shot so far. But these look like fun. Might have to try some of these.

They also have these "Thug Slugs" that are fairly new. Looks interesting.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Thu...tinfo/1264100/

[Magnum Wheel Man]

interestingly enough, I was going through the Lyman #3 manual last night, looking for some black powder cartridge load data ( to verify from an earlier conversation with some buddies ) & ran across a short chapter on "bullets in shotguns" starting back from the black powder & "howda" days, to modern slugs... so it appears that solid projectiles have been put in shotguns from the very beginning

[T. O'Heir]

"...might be a little to strong..." So is a .410" or .400"(wrong diameter) pistol bullet. There's lots of .410 slug data on-line. Trick will likely be finding slugs. A .410" bullet will do though.
http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/sluglo...eloadheavy.htm

[SHR970]

A .410" bullet will do though.

Uhhh NO

An awful lot of 410's are choked Mod / Full. Full being tighter than you might expect......395 is supposedly what full is but brands vary a whole lot.

I bought a FAIR 410 O/U (Verona LX 702) that was Mod / Full and had the chokes opened up to Sk / Sk by a reputable smith. You still can not pass a .40 cal through either choke. Not a chance I would drop a hard cast .410 through that gun!

I appreciate the work done by MCB....BUT you also need to take a close look at the actual gun(s) used.

I will run a load through my Mod choked Rossi long before it sees my U/O's.

[SHR970]

Gdawgs wrote:And I double checked the velocity they list, it is indeed 2400

Having seen the data I will back up that claim. And the variable I wouldn't talk about earlier......you can beat 2300 fps with Longshot. You don't need to believe either of us but YOU can buy the manual and tell us how wrong we are.

And on the BP web site they have the Thug Slug listed using several powders that you don't think of as 410 suitable......and make decent velocities with them. The Thug Slug and its wad weigh 126 gr.. That can be driven over 1700 fps with one combo tested by BPI....1600 by a couple more and be within SAAMI pressure specs. Data available on line.

H/T Gdawgs for the info! It will go towards an experiment I have in mind for a 3/'8 oz. slug load I have in mind.

[jeager106]

There is a small pick up truck load of slug loading data if you "google" up single projectile .410 loads on the net.
Not too many years ago a fellow wrote up some neat articles using slugs in the .410 & a Win. lever action smooth bore. (or was that a Marlin????)
On Cast Bullets there are articles on using 9mm cases filled with melted
lead as .410 "slugs" but darned if I'd want to fool with that.