Unique & plated bullets

[Buggies]

Quite new to the forum and reloading in general. Here's my trouble. I have a pound of Unique and a whole bunch of 115 grain Berry's plated bullets (9mm).

Like I said, I'm new. So I only have 2 manuals right now (Lee's and Lyman). Neither of which has load data for the ingredients I have.

I dug around a bit and I'm thinking of starting at 4.8 grains of Unique with my 115 grain Berry's plated bullets. Do you think this is a decent safe starting point? Also, about what should the OAL be? I was thinking around 1.155 ?

While i'm on length, I see loads have minimum and maximum OAL. The range between the two are sometimes big. What effect would seating the bullet more or less with in this min max range?

[buck460XVR]

Berry's website says to use starting to mid range jacketed recipes for a similar weight/profile bullet. That means you have loading data available to you.

[Nick_C_S]

Buggies said: I dug around a bit and I'm thinking of starting at 4.8 grains of Unique with my 115 grain Berry's plated bullets. Do you think this is a decent safe starting point?

Welcome to TFL - the place where all your reloading answers will be questioned And of course, all your questions will be answered. Levity aside, there are a lot of knowledgeable people here to help.

Really, you have two separate things going on. The OAL of the ammunition you load should be determined by performing a "plunk test" with the firearm that is going to digest said ammunition. There is a correct dimension for the bullet with which you are loading and the firearm from which it will be discharged. This is where Unclenick (not me, the staff member) hopefully will chime in with his wonderful illustration of how the ideal OAL should look like.

Shortening or lengthening the OAL has the net effect of raising or lowering the powder burn rate, respectively. Of course, this is just a general guideline, and exceptions abound. That's basically a good way of looking at it.

Now, about those Berry's 115's and Unique. First, it's a good combination. But it's not a great combination. Of course, nowdays, we load what we have. Don't get me wrong, Unique/115 can make great rounds, but they're not going to be light target rounds. They're going to necessarily have a little umph to them - if you want to run your Unique in its "sweet spot" (and you do).

Speer #14 shows Unique from 5.6g (1166 fps) to 6.3g (1244 fps); with an OAL of 1.135. Once you determine the correct OAL for your bullet/barrel, you can use this data as a guideline. If your OAL is less, then you might want to start a 1/10th or two lower than the 5.6. If it is the same or more, use this data as is.

Sierra 5th shows Unique from 4.9g (1000 fps) to 6.6g (1250 fps); with an OAL of 1.100. Once you determine the correct OAL for your bullet/barrel, you can use this data as a guideline. If your OAL is less, then you might want to start a 1/10th or two lower than the 4.9. If it is the same or more, use this data as is.

All that said, I think 4.8g is almost certainly a safe starting point. I don't want to entice you into rushing your work-up. But I can almost guarantee what you are going to find is the round running most clean and consistent when you start getting into the upper realm of the load data.

I wish I had some personal load work-up data for you. But I don't load a lot of 9mm to start with. And I tend to use AA5 for this type of application. I tend to use Unique for my revolver stuff.

[pgdion]

I've run Unique with those same bullets every where from 4.3 to 5.3gr. 4.7 gr is my favorite load. 4.3 was a bit light imo, 4.5 was ok, I found 4.6 to 4.9 to be to sweet spot for me. BTW - that's my favorite combination of powder and bullets too.

[WESHOOT2]

5.5g Unique works under any 115g.

[filthy phil]

Check the weights your throwing.. Unique dosent flow well through all powder measures.
A $10 aquarium air pump is an easy fix

Same principle as using a vibrator at a concrete pour

[Buggies]

Yes buck I've read that. And I understand that. Problem is a cannot find a reliable recipe using Unique and plated or cast or jacketed bullets.

I'm not sure I understand OAL. My manuals show a max OAL which I assume is some sort of standard so ammo is shootable in any weapon of that caliber. Minimum I thought was determined by the powder and bullet type.

[filthy phil]

See where factory rounds headspace on your gun and replicate that length.
I load 124 plater with 4.5 unique. If you use that as a starting point and work up (heavier bullets take less powder) you will be fine

[Nick_C_S]

Finding the OAL is actually easier to do than it is to explain. Basically, you wanna mock up a dummy round (no primer, no powder) with the bullet you're going to use. Seat it long and give it just enough crimp to remove the flair. Now, drop ("plunk") it into your barrel (firearm dismantled). At this point, the bullet will most likely be the stopping factor because it's up against the lands and grooves of the barrel and can drop in no further. Put the bullet back in the press and move the bullet down further. Then plunk it again. At some point, the head (primer side) of the case will be flush with the barrel stop (the extreme back of the barrel), yet the bullet still barely touching the lands and grooves. This is the ideal OAL for that bullet/barrel combination. Note and record this OAL. This is the OAL and should not be adjusted for any reason other than the bullet being too long to feed in the magazine (rare).

Once you get the OAL, then you can move to the next step - which is determining a starting load.

[Nick_C_S]

See where factory rounds headspace on your gun and replicate that length.

. . . ^ This won't necessarily do it. Usually, factory rounds are a bit short and they are headspacing on the case mouth - not by the bullet touching the lands and grooves. Most factory ammo has a gap between the bullet, and the lands and grooves. Although this usually results in proper firing ammo, it is not ideal. That gap causes the bullet to "wiggle" when it first starts its journey down the barrel. That wiggle is a potential source for inaccuracy.

When the bullet is sitting on the lands and grooves, there's no room for wiggle; resulting in a more accurate round. And this is why you want to plunk test for every bullet profile you load. The entire process only takes about 10 to 15 minutes, and need only be done once per bullet profile. Time very well spent. If you're loading your own ammo, might as well take the extra moment to truly make it your ammo.

[Nick_C_S]

My manuals show a max OAL which I assume is some sort of standard so ammo is shootable in any weapon of that caliber.

There is a SAAMI specification for maximum OAL; and yes, it's basically a standard that facilitates proper gun function in a maximum of scenarios.

Most factory (or handloaded for that matter) ammo is shorter than SAAMI max. Factory ammo usually loads to the short side so the bullet headspaces on the case mouth, thus ensuring that the gun goes into full battery. The factory doesn't know what gun is going to shoot their ammo, so they just load it short to headspace on the case mouth.

But you can do better. You know what gun is going to shoot your ammo. So you have the advantage of loading your ammo's OAL specific to your gun.

[Buggies]

thanks so much for the info guys. I appreciate it!

[Sevens]

When the bullet is sitting on the lands and grooves, there's no room for wiggle; resulting in a more accurate round. And this is why you want to plunk test for every bullet profile you load. The entire process only takes about 10 to 15 minutes, and need only be done once per bullet profile. Time very well spent. If you're loading your own ammo, might as well take the extra moment to truly make it your ammo.

This becomes a royal issue for those of us who craft ammo for ourselves... to feed MANY different handguns in the same chambering.

I sometimes marvel at how much -NEW- there is to learn, even many years in and many tens of thousand of rounds made & fired... just by picking up a new handgun that gives me some manner of fits with what ammo it demands.

The most recent? Springfield Loaded Stainless, 9mm.

[Buggies]

One final question for this plunk test. I'm not sure but the "test" doesn't seem to give me any type of valuable feedback.

I'm plunk testing on a Ruger SR9c. I made the longest possible cartridge I could. Just seated the bullet just enough so it wouldn't fall off... then crimped. The OAL of the cartridge was 1.209 (again that bullet is just seated enough to not fall off and crimp). My manuals say that 9mm has a max OAL of 1.169.

So I guess im confused. It seems impossible to build a cartridge that is "fit" for my handgun. So the OAL length of my cartridge HAS to be based on the powder charge... having t he right amount of head space (between the powder and bullet) and not compressing the powder.

Am I over thinking something here?

[Sevens]

You are still underthinking!
Maximum COAL, especially for semi-auto pistols has to do with how well they may or may not fit the magazine and simply fit within the natural feeding geometry of the handgun when it's self-loading under fire. (<--and no manner of hand-jacking that pistol will truly replicate the harsh environment on the shooting range)

Stick between the two hard points: the max COAL (set by SAAMI) and the minimum safe COAL (typically/often listed with your published load data)

Nick's advice to fine-tune your ammo is a fine idea for making improvements to your handloads down the line. But long before that, you want to make some safe ammo that runs all the time, so focus on that.

We aren't building match ammo for a Pardini free pistol here. We're trying to get safe, functioning ammo using low-cost plated bullets out of a Ruger SR-9. Compact... at that.

[serf 'rett]

Sevens - you have a short chamber in that Springfield? I load all my 9mm rounds to fit a Springfield XDm with a "short" distance to the lands. Fat bullets got to be shoved deeper.

OP - I found a good load, for my pistol, at 4.8 grains of Unique under 115 grain Berry's set at 1.120 inches. Grouped at less than 3/4" at 50 feet off sandbags.

You may not find that "magic" OAL where the bullet just comes in contact with the lands if you have an ample chamber coupled with the narrow profile of the Berry’s 115 grain bullet. I find I must do the OAL thing when I’m loading heavier 124 or 135 grain plated or cast bullets with wider “noses” (profiles).

[Buggies]

Serf... Unique seems to be very "fluffy". Are you worried about compressing the powder?

[serf 'rett]

Buggies - Tis true that Unique has more bulk per grain; however, I haven't run into a problem with compressing the power. I think a key point is the "fat bullets" I use, such as Missouri 124 grain Smallball or Berry’s 124 grain hollow back flat point, are broader but shorter in length.

[Buggies]

Super thanks for the input

[Sevens]

Sevens - you have a short chamber in that Springfield?

Actually, no -- but I did find quite recently when playing with some new & totally different bullets that my Tanfoglio Elite Match does have a very short leade. The issue I found with the Springer Loaded is that the chamber is EXTREMELY tight, and brother, I ain't foolin.

Basically, I found that after handloading 9mm for nearly 10 years... I happened to stumble across the -one- pistol/barrel that doesn't believe my 9mm size die returns the brass to spec. The Springfield I have will chamber any factory round, but it simply would NOT chamber each and every piece that I had sized with that die.

At the time I ran in to this issue, I took a handful of the absolute worst offending pieces of brass and then went on a mission to seat these sized/empty pieces of 9mm brass in to the chambers of every other 9mm I could get my paws on and I quit counting guns when I passed a dozen and found that these pieces fit in to each and every one of them.

Then, I made it the next step in my mission to simply find -ONE- brand of factory ammo that wouldn't chamber in the Springfield because I was THIS close (I'm pinching my thumb & index finger for a visual! ) to sending this barrel to Springfield with a request that they ream or replace it... but I never found a round of factory ammo that would offer resistance in the chamber.

So...
I bought a new size die and that cured the problem. And I'll tell you, I've never laid eyes on a 9mm chamber with more case head support than I've got in this ramped 1911 barrel, I think you'd have to buy a 9mm barrel for a T/C Contender to match it.

But the bottom line for me is that you can be a very skilled handloader with a log that runs back for years with success, but introduce the right new gun in to the mix and you may find yourself right back at the drawing board, and you will learn some new things because of it.

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by Nick_C_S

. . . ^ This won't necessarily do it. Usually, factory rounds are a bit short and they are headspacing on the case mouth - not by the bullet touching the lands and grooves. Most factory ammo has a gap between the bullet, and the lands and grooves. Although this usually results in proper firing ammo, it is not ideal. That gap causes the bullet to "wiggle" when it first starts its journey down the barrel. That wiggle is a potential source for inaccuracy.

When the bullet is sitting on the lands and grooves, there's no room for wiggle; resulting in a more accurate round. And this is why you want to plunk test for every bullet profile you load. The entire process only takes about 10 to 15 minutes, and need only be done once per bullet profile. Time very well spent. If you're loading your own ammo, might as well take the extra moment to truly make it your ammo

Semi-auto straight-walled handgunammo is supposed to head space on the case mouth. This is why we do the 'plunk" test. With Semi-auto straight-walled handgun ammo you do not want the bullet touching the lands as this can greatly increase pressure, especially in calibers that normally operate at low pressure. Even with a rifle, the best accuracy does not always come from touching the lands or jamming the bullet into the lands. Many time it comes just short of touching the lands. OAL in Semi-auto handgun ammo is generally dictated by how well ammo feeds along with proper headspacing. The OAL given in manuals generally has nuttin' to do with SAAMI specs, but is just the OAL of the tested ammo.

[Sevens]

The OAL given in manuals generally has nuttin' to do with SAAMI specs, but is just the OAL of the tested ammo.

We likely agree with why many things are listed in published manuals (primer, barrel length, ambient temperature) and the COAL fits right in there. They list it because it's relevant, not because it must be replicated to the exact.

However, it does make sense to point out that when published load data in a manual lists the COAL of the particular load they publish, part of what they're showing you is that you can expect the pressure will be within SAAMI limits as long as you don't build it to a shorter COAL than they listed. They don't point this out specifically and well-seasoned and learned handloaders know this, but it's still worth sharing to newer folks in an open forum.

To put this another way...
If you find a MAX load published somewhere that appears "warmer" than all other places you've looked... and you build that load to their specs EXCEPT you shove that bullet deeper in to the case than the COAL they listed... and especially if you do this in a high-pressure and small-capacity cartridge case (9mm, .40 S&W), you could have yourself a bad day.

Generally speaking, when loading semi-auto pistol rounds, keeping a close eye on your COAL and keeping very good notes is very, very important, in my experience.

[buck460XVR]

They list it because it's relevant, not because it must be replicated to the exact.

Correct. What I meant by my statement was not that OAL listed in the manual for a specific load was irrelevant, but was not a specific SAAMI length. That it was the OAL used to create a safe load, falling within SAAMI specs., with the powder charge listed.

[02bigdogs17]

4.7gr of Unique at 1.125" with 115gr berry's bullet is what I use.

[highrolls]

Buggies: "One final question for this plunk test. I'm not sure but the "test" doesn't seem to give me any type of valuable feedback."


I really, really know where you are coming from. All it tells you is whether or not that particular case will fit your particular chamber. If I am going to spend the time testing my resized cases (notice I did not say finished product) I want the test to actually have a purpose. This is what works for me. I use a case gage. These come in two types I believe. One type is for the SAAMI maximum cartridge dimension and the other type is for the SAAMI minimum chamber size. The latter will be slightly larger than the former. My experience with semi auto pistol calibers is that both will work for a generic "Plunk" test with the goal to eliminate having to check the bloody thing in a particular barrel or barrels. I started with LE Wilson case gages. These are the maximum SAAMI case measurement. Makes for perfect SAAMI ammo, but I get a lot of rejects, things that have to be reworked. That's why I always test my cases after resizing and before priming. In the rare instance I cannot solve the reject problem, I chunk the case and have lost the minimum of effort and materials. I do not proceed to load the case untill it passes the SAAMI check.

What I discovered over the years is that I get a lot of rejects that have minor issues which will not effect the loaded round. What I have done to address this is to go to the SAAMI minimum chamber gage instead. (These are the Dillon stainless steel case gages and run somewhere around $15 a pop) Most of the rejects are gone. What few remain are truly problematic. Now I am talking semi-auto pistol calibers. This procedure is not what I would recommend for rifles as bullet seating with the lands is actually useful there. With pistols, you are kidding yourself to believe this accuracy seating distance will have a noticeable impact. To many other factors will override it, not the least of which is tiny sight radius. Worse, if you try to do this with a light 9mm and seat to the lands, ain't much case there to hold the bullet properly. Not something I want to do in a semi auto bullet slam load mechanism.

OK lets talk about Unique. Alliant Unique. I just measured a Federal and a Remington once-resized 9mm case. Both filled to the brim will hold 7.0 grains of Alliant Unique. To load a bullet on that would be difficult, probably spilling some, and certainly compressing the crap out of it. Point is, that you are using a powder that you cannot double charge accidently. Case is too small. Somewhere around 5.9 to 6.2 grains, most 9mm cases should start to see some compression of this powder even with lighter bullet profiles. I have never tested Alliant Unique under compression. I shoot its predecessor, Hercules Unique compressed moderately with no adverse effects.

(1.) Lyman 49th, page 342 shows a 120 grain lead RN loaded to an OAL 1.065 with a test range of 4.0 to 5.0 grains of Alliant Unique. At 5.0 grains the test velocity was 1194 fps. If you look at the pressures, this is not a SAAMI maximum 9mm pressure. But it is the maximum for the lead bullet without encountering barrel leading.

(2.) Same book, prior page shows a 115 grain jacketed HP at an OAL of 1.090 loaded from 4.4 to 5.8 grains of Unique. Again, they do not show the top load as reading maximum SAAMI pressure but actually a ways under it.

OK back to the OP's original post. When you were picking your start point for powder, what are you trying to test ? For me, I hate to waste test time and effort just to safety check a load. There is much more to be accomplished. For a single semi, I want to know it is safe for the entire load range AND where it starts to function properly, or when it functions across the test range, does it show any other signs, such as low pressure as well as high pressure. In your case, I would first check the Berry's across a similar load range for lead. My experience with plated is Rainier's and that has shown me that plated are NOT equal to jacketed. I would test at 4.0, 4.3, 4.5, 4.8, and 5.0 grains. Note where your gun begins to cycle properly if not across the test range. Look for and note powder burns around the case neck at the low pressure loads. They may occasionaly be present across the range as well. Also your suggested OAL is a good starting point and will give you a slight safety margin over the Lyman data in paragraph 1 above.

When you complete the testing above, I would be curious, personally and go to paragraph 2 above and prepare test loads say 5.2, 5.5, 5.6,5.7, and 5.8 grains. I would be looking to see what effect velocity would have on the Berry's. With the Rainier's I get a serious barrel cleaning problem, like unto copper plated lead above the sonic barrier (1200 ft per second generically). But watch for anything unusual, like sudden bright extractor marks, sounds and feel of the gun (thru hearing protection of course). Possible very hard to see primer leaks or barely detectable firing pin indent pinhole primer leak smudges. As you approach SAAMI max pressure, most auto pistols should give a different feel to the recoil as the slide begins to yield significantly more force to the frame. I have some pistols that I can actually hear this through the muffs, but you really have to be focused on it. Those are the guns I always try to put recoil buffers in. They actually need it.

Also, I strongly recommend you do not exceed 5.8 grains of Alliant Unique for the Berry's, period.