Gun ID WW2 era

[fire13]

Ok, I need some help here. A little back story... My grandfather is a WW2 vet, and he brought this handgun home from war. My father broke the handgun when he was a kid, messing around with it as a teenager. When my grandfather found out, he threw the gun into the garbage. My dad then secretly retrieved the gun, and has had it ever since.

I want to restore the gun to some sort of working order, if possible. First, I would like to know what it is...

On the slide is stamped: 'fabrique d'armes de guerre de grande precision'
and: 'Bulwark Patent-Depose No 67239'

Upper side of handle towards the back is a stamp with the letters 'P.V.' and also a stamped shield and a stamped lion (i think its a lion).

I do not know what caliber this is.

The off white grips I'm not sure are the original part of this gun or not. I believe the emblem on them is the letters 'F N' in an artistic font/emblem.

It was my dads original intention to restore it and give it back to my grandfather, whom is still alive, but my grandfather is in no condition any longer to receive it as a gift due to advanced dementia. I would still however like to restore it and give it to my dad, if at all possible. He tried to do this 10-15 years ago, but never took to the internet to do the research. Not real technologically savvy...

Here are the pictures:IMG_2002resize1.jpg

IMG_2003resize1.jpg

IMG_2004resize1.jpg

[fire13]

IMG_2005resize1.jpg

IMG_2006resize1.jpg

[fire13]

[attach]IMG_2007resize1.jpg

IMG_2008resize1.jpg

IMG_2009resize1.jpg[/attach]

[fire13]

IMG_2010resize1.jpg

IMG_2011resize1.jpg


All thoughts are appreciated and welcome. Thanks.

[2ndsojourn]

Looks like a Browning 1922

[Mike Irwin]

Yep, appears to be a Browning Model 1922 in .380 ACP, which was also known as 9mm Kurz/Corto/Short/ in Europe.

It's been abused and neglected, but it appears to be salvageable.

[Mike Irwin]

Crap! No, it's NOT a Model 1922.

It's a Model 1910.

The Model 1922 had a detachable nose cap that was part of the take down process.

This gun does not, so it has to be a Model of 1910.

I always get those two models confused.

[carguychris]

That is NOT an FN Browning 1910. The front end of the frame is all wrong. The serial number is in the wrong place on the frame; on 1910's and 1922's, it is above the RH side of the trigger guard. The OP's description of the slide legend is all wrong. There is no grip safety, nor thumb safety, nor a slot where the missing thumb safety would have been located. Finally, the big hole above the trigger guard suggests that the gun had a separate dedicated slide stop- a feature that the 1910/1922 series lacks.

For that matter, I don't see a safety lever ANYWHERE on this gun; highly unusual for a WWII-era pistol! (Perhaps the lever went in what I'm assuming is the slide-stop hole.)

The FN-logo grips may be spurious, and I'm not even certain they actually fit this pistol; if you examine the frame, it appears to have TWO holes on each side of the frame for grip attachment screws, whereas the pictured grips only have ONE hole, and that hole does not appear to match any of the holes in the frame.

Finally, I'm not an expert on Belgian proof marks, but those marks look suspicious. I've never seen the "PV" located next to the lion- it's usually under the lion, separated by a line. Finally, I seem to recall than most FN's have the classic crown-oval-"E.L.G." proof in addition to an asterisk-over-"N" proof, which this pistol lacks, and the crown-oval-"X" proof on this pistol does not look familiar.

I think that what we have here is an FN 1910 copy, likely from a low-volume workshop-scale operation. Finally, I think the Belgian proof marks are phony; given the general history of European firearms in this era, I surmise that the pistol may be Spanish.

[skimbell]

The grips are for a FN Model 1900. The 1910 grips have a single hole (the right grip is threaded) in each of the grips that are retained with a single screw that goes through both grips and using the hole mid way up and just behind the magazine cut out on the frame.
This gun was made in both .32 and .380. Caliber change is simply a switch of barrel. Everything else, including the magazine is the same.
I'm not up on the markings but I do remember hearing that there were a lot of Chinese knock-offs of the 1910 floating around.
The quality of the Chinese guns is reportedly pretty bad.

[fire13]

I too question whether the grips are originals or not. It just doesn't look like there is any place to attach them. The screw hole doesn't line up with anything on the guns handle.

Thanks for all the quick responses! You guys are clearly very knowledgeable.

I've included another picture, this time with the yellow stickers indicating where 3 threaded holes are. Maybe that is how the original grips were attached? If so, I'm not sure where the off white grips I have with this old gun came from!

The opposite side is missing one of the three threaded holes for some reason.

The larger hole at the bottom does not appear to be threaded.

Also you will notice that I included the back side of one of the grips.IMG_2012resize1.jpg

IMG_2013resize1.jpg

[fire13]

I don't know if its any help or not, but I also noticed the 'Lion' stamp in 2 more places, once on the back of the slide (directly above the P.V. and lion on the handle), and once on the barrel itself, inside the slide where the cartridges are ejected from. (the visible part of the barrel on as viewed through the ejection port).

Hope this helps.

What would an amateur such as myself do as the next step in trying to salvage this old firearm? Any advice?

Thanks for everyones help.

[Mike Irwin]

OK, so it's a crappy copy of a 1910.

Close enough for a revolver guy such as myself.

[Rodger_p]

Reminds me of some of the "Kyber Pass" copies I have seen photos of.

[Ozzieman]

It’s definitely not a 1922. I don’t know anything about 1910’s so I can’t help.
This is my 22 (I think) with the holster it was issued with. The arrow shows where the slide rotates to take down the gun.
This is a 32 auto and shoots very nice.
Would be curious to know how the barrel got that damaged.
I have a Winchester 1897 pump shot gun that sat in a garage for +70 years and at some point someone used the barrel to knock holes in something with a LARGE hammer. Receiver, pump but no wood.
Sad!

[SDC]

This is a Spanish copy (sort of) of the Browning 1910, made by Alkartasuna under a couple of different names; the give-aways in this case are the weird shape of the front of the frame, and the typical "Ruby"-style safety above the trigger. There were enough of these imported into the US that you may be able to find parts, but I would be dubious about shooting it.

[Bill DeShivs]

"Bulwark"- says so right on the slide!

[RJay]

SDC has it, it is a Eibar ruby type. Grand Precision Fabrique D'Armes De Guerre, Eibar, Spain. It looks like a " Colonial /7.62 "., made by Domingo Acha, using a patent { Bulwark Patent Depose } from Beistegul Hermanos ( Most likely related to each other by blood.). GP was just a trading company and sold guns from different makers. I don't know if they used that name to fool folks into believing it was a FN or they just wanted a fancy name, but the name has sure fooled a lot of folks. Those grips are not original, the original were black ( probably pressed horn ) I under stand you wanting to repair/restore it, but I think you are between a rock and a hard place, the only way you will get all the parts is to buy a like gun and even then the parts will probably have to be fitted. Very rarely will parts be a drop in exchange even between another Eibar gun of the same maker. BTW, that gun is way earlier than WWII.

[carguychris]

<gloats over correct guess that the pistol is Spanish>

Spanish origin helps explain the Ruby-style safety. Spanish pistols from this era often re-used mechanisms copied from previous designs, both to sidestep potential patent issues and to utilize existing tooling, thus lowering production costs. Speaking of which, I wonder if the bulge at the front of the frame houses a conventional guide rod and recoil spring. AFAIK the 1910 and 1922 were the first pistols to utilize the barrel as a guide for the spring, and a design change this substantial may have been too big of a pill for the makers to swallow.

Originally Posted by RJay

GP was just a trading company and sold guns from different makers... I under stand you wanting to repair/restore it, but I think you are between a rock and a hard place, the only way you will get all the parts is to buy a like gun and even then the parts will probably have to be fitted. Very rarely will parts be a drop in exchange even between another Eibar gun of the same maker.

+1. Some Eibar gunmakers were pretty substantial operations, but others were family-operated workshops literally located in someone's garage. The trading companies did not enforce strict design standards; there is no guarantee that any given part from a gun from one shop will fit in a similar gun from another shop, and sometimes there was so much hand fitment that many parts won't interchange between guns from the SAME shop.

[fire13]

Well, Thanks to everyone for the replies.

Unfortunately, it seems that this gun is a 100 year old 'cheap knockoff' and really isn't worth trying to restore. Thats a little disappointing but thats life I suppose. I think my father was thinking that it was an authentic relic from the past, but I guess I'm gonna have to tell him its a cheap piece of junk from another era! I was hoping to get it restored and give to him as a gift. Oh well...

[James K]

Well, it is not a Browning 1910. It is not a Browning 1922. It is not Belgian. It is Spanish, but it is not a Ruby.

Apparently the "'Fabrique d'armes de guerre de grande precision" was some kind of holding or export company, possibly located in France or Belgium, although the guns were made in Spain. Guns marked with that name have also been seen with several trade names, including Jupiter, Princeps and Triomphe, as well as Bulwark, used by different companies in Spain, at least one of which made Ruby pistols during WWI. The marking is intended to look, at first glance, like the Fabrique Nationale marking used by FN of Belgium, and the guns to resemble the FN/Browning pistols.

It is safe to say the pistol is not of high quality, and that the grips are replacement grips made for the FN/Browning Model 1910.

IMHO, the gun is not worth spending a lot of money on. If you want to present it to your father, you might clean it up and put it into a shadow box for non-firing display.

Jim

[Deaf Smith]

Orgies?

Or just a Spanish copy that had fake stamps?

Deaf

[Bill DeShivs]

Orgies??
Where?

[Jim Watson]

Triple K says the Bulwark .32 was made for Fabrique d'armes de guerre de grande precision by Beistugui Hermanos. Like many of the oddballs, they have no magazine, firing pin, or grips to fit, but the catalog is a handy reference.

The similar looking Colonial was made for the same distributor by Etxezarraga Abitua y Cia, according to Triple K.

[fire13]

Hey guys, I have a question...

Do you think the safety lever/slide lock lever, from an 'Astra Firecat 25' will fit in this Spanish Ruby pistol? I haven't had any luck finding a safety for this gun but the Astra Firecat safety looks identical, and it is available at gun-parts .com and at gunpartauction .com - I would like to know before I buy one. Thanks!

Also, if anyone knows where I can get a lanyard ring... that would be great too.

And while we're at it, an action spring/rod assembly.....

Thanks everyone!

[joe-lumber]

My brother gave me a broken Remington 51 -.380 that I had repaired. It has given me nothing but problems. I had to use a new magazine as it didn't have one. Well it jams up constantily and that is not worth the problems. If you want a pistol that works, purchase a new one. Glock has just come out with a .380 and there are many others out there that are sold in that caliber.

I would also suggest if you want small, a Glock 26 where you might not have any problems. I put away those old ones to look at them and don't trust them for protection.
J