New to Reloading, Weight Variation Question

jimkimmons · April 30, 2012, 07:13 PM

Advice from someone with more experience in reloading would be appreciated. I'm using a Hogdon powder and their reloading data for 327 federal magnum. I had a somewhat less that stellar first outing with one very hot round.

So, today I carefully weighed everything on a new digital scale. Weighing a primed case, bullet and powder charge, I came up with a number, but the bullets were varying by up to 5 grains and the primed brass by up to 3. So, I averaged five bullets and five primed brass, then added in my 4.9 grains of power, for a perfect weight of 167.0 grains for loaded round. However, even after repeated checks of powder measure, I'm getting loaded round weights of 166.5 to 168.0 at the high end. I kept for shooting anything up to 167.4, but not sure whether to fire the four rounds from 167.5 to 168 grains. I think they'd be allright, as the maximum charge is 5.4 grains, so going over by 0.5 would put me at 167.5, but leary of shooting those rounds.

Obviously, the variances in weights of components could all skew to the high side on any one round and I'd still be in good shape with 168 if it was due to bullet and/or case weight. However, too new to this to get into risky behavior.

BigJimP · April 30, 2012, 07:25 PM

I've been reloading for 50 yrs ...off and on ....

and as you've discovered...you can't weigh a finished round ...and know much of anything about it ...especially in terms of your powder drops. There is just too much variation in most cases ..and bullets...to be sure what you have in terms of powder ...because you're only loading ..4.9 grains of powder.

If I were nervous enough to ask ...I'd say pull the bullets ...and check each powder drop with a scale ...and then evaluate your procedures. Ideally your goal is to find a powder...that will drop with no variation ...or certainly no more than + - 0.1 grain ....and make sure that + - keeps you in the mid range of your published load. Some powders have a min and max that is only 0.4 gr apart ....and they may not be good for your application / whatever press or powder measure you're using...

You've already said you were spooked by a load that felt heavy ....

So you need to pull all the bullets ...and check each round ...until you're confident that you are dropping exactly what your goal is for powder.

There are presses now ....that have powder check dies, powder cop dies, lock out dies, etc ....but not all presses will allow their use ...but they will give you some great feedback on high volume handgun ammo ...if your powder drops go out of tolerance...I think they're great tools ../ and you might consider one of those presses if your press does not allow installation of one ( in general - you need a 5 station press - like the Dillon 650 to install one ).

I wish you could ....but you can't get there by weighing finished cartridges../ not even if you sort cases by head stamp ...and bought them all new ...

BigJimP · April 30, 2012, 07:34 PM

My personal procedure...

when I startup my press....I weigh every powder drop for first 10 drops...( I usually cycle the press ...and dump the first 3 powder drops ...before I get started ).

After the first 10 ...if they are 100% consistent ( + - 0.1 grain ) ....then I only check one in 10 ....again if its consistent....then only 1 in 25 ...

Its a confidence thing...( making sure the press is clean, well tuned, no static elec in the powder measure, etc ...) ....and I want to see everything really consistent.

I also have a powder check die installed ...and I make sure its working so it will alert me to any variation of 0.2gr at least ...( usually it alerts me to 0.1 grain variation ) ....

I have a good light / good mirror set so I can look into the case after the powder drop ....but noones eyes can see a variation of 0.1 grain ...and maybe not 0.3 grain ....inside a case...its too hard to do ..in most powders.
But at least a visual check ...tells you there is powder there...in some volume ...so you don't get a squib round .../ and if you pick a large volume powder...that fills the case close to half way ...if you got a double drop it wold show up as well....

but variations of 0.2 or 0.4 grains ...are never good ..../ and you want to strive for precision.../ and close tolerances.

oneounceload · April 30, 2012, 07:38 PM

You have two critical measurements for your revolver rounds - the powder charge and the OAL length. Weighing completed cartridges tells you nothing as mentioned by Jim.

I reload in batches on a single stage as I do not shoot the volume that Jim does in handguns. I drop 10 powder charges and dump them right back into the hopper and then weigh the charge. I keep the hopper filled between 1/3 and 2/3 full and I use the same type of stroke so the vibration treats each drop the same. My RCBS Uniflow can deliver a consistent drop, even with light loads for small cartridges like 32 ACP and 32 SWL, cartridges where, like Jim mentioned, the difference between start and max is maybe .5 grain

Go over your methods and determine why your powder drops are inaccurate

BigJimP · April 30, 2012, 07:41 PM

Because a finished round feels a little different as you fire it ....doesn't mean it was a powder issue either ....

maybe you seated a bullet a little deeper...or did something on the crimp or final station a little different...( all of that will make a difference too )...

but powder drops are critical ...so you're smart ....not to just go and shoot them and risk your gun / or your hands and eyes...

markr · April 30, 2012, 07:49 PM

What he said^

You are putting too much energy into weighing completed rounds, at this point.....because the information isn't going to be terribly useful. Bullets and cases vary in weight, some more than others. Focus on throwing consistant powder charges, that is far more valuable.

jwrowland77 · April 30, 2012, 07:59 PM

I'm fairly new at the reloading game, so I figured I'd pipe in with what I found.

I weighed every bullet from the 115 FMJ packages and saw a big variance, going from 114-115.6. This was going to drive me nuts. However the more reading I did, the more I realized that if the OAL is consistent and the powder charge is consistent, those are the things that matter.

I do trim all my cases, and figure if my cases are the same length (for caliber being loaded), and my OAL is within .003 of each other, and powder charges are exact, then everything should be fairly safe.

I do weigh out each individual load by hand though. Yeah it takes me a little time to load, but I figure I know without a doubt, what charge I have in each case. I can say this because after I charge a case, I immediately load a bullet in it. To me this makes for a better percentage of not having a double charge or not having a no charge.

I loaded some with Titegroup this weekend an realized that if it wasn't for my charging then immediately loading a bullet, it could be very easy to double charge with Titegroup since it takes so little powder as compared to the case size.

Just my observations since I started from a newbie point of view.

Nathan · April 30, 2012, 08:21 PM

Your method has some possibility, but you would have to separate bullets and cases into .1 gr or similar increments to make this effective.

Now, powder which measures ~5gr, usually meters well. That means it's weight for a given throw or volume is very accurate. Usually, I find pistol powders can be "thrown" to +/- 0.1 gr. to do this, you will need to practice a consistent throw technique. At first, I measured my fist 10 and then 1 in 10. Now I know my measure well enough to just check my first 3 and then about 1 in 50. I also visually check case powder fill 100% before putting the bullet in.

So, the key to me is being sure of my powder measure technique. If thi is impossible, like with Reloader 19, I throw ~0.5-1 gr under, put it on the scale and trickle up to weight. I have a balance type scale, so this works. Avoid trickling on digital scales, unless rated for it. They can give bad readings.

Last, get a scale you trust 100%, then buy check weights to prove it to yourself.

If your powder measure doesn't throw +/-0.2 with 5gr charges ask the maker why. It is likely your setup, cleaning, configuration, etc. they know. Call them.

jimkimmons · April 30, 2012, 08:55 PM

Thanks for all of these great answers. As I figured, too much variation to weigh loaded rounds. I am using a brand new Dillon 550B, and I weighed five charges in a row on a digital scale and all within .1 grain. However, the concern comes from my first 30 with a chrony, and one round was really a lot hotter than the others, blowing out the back of the primer, but not hurting the gun at all, a Taurus M327. Went from around 1100 fps to over 1500 just for that round. All of the others pretty consistent.

So, I assume that I overcharged it, though don't think I doubled it. I'm concerned that I don't have enough knowledge and experience with the Dillon to know if it's doing it's job properly, though like I said, five charges all almost exactly 4.9. However, interesting consideration about the small spread between a normal 4.8 load and the maximum of 5.4 which really throws up the pressure in the case to around 39,000.

So, I think that my next trip to town, I'll go with a different powder, as SR-4756 has a spread from 4.7 to 5.8 at max load. A little more leeway there. However, suggestions welcome. Also, is there some add-on warning mechanism that will work with the Dillon 550B? Also, I am taking to heart the suggestion to perfect a consistent throw, as I now realize that could be the problem. I'm still experimenting with press height, etc.

Again, I really appreciate the help I'm getting here.

Lost Sheep · May 1, 2012, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwrowland77

I'm fairly new at the reloading game, so I figured I'd pipe in with what I found.

I weighed every bullet from the 115 FMJ packages and saw a big variance, going from 114-115.6. This was going to drive me nuts. However the more reading I did, the more I realized that if the OAL is consistent and the powder charge is consistent, those are the things that matter.

Not quite. The length of the round from nose to tail is the OAL. But what really matters is the volume under the bullet. If the nose of the bullet is shaped a little differently than its brothers, the OAL is not a particularly good proxy for that volume. However, it is the only one we have, so we use it.

Measure a dozen bullets and see if the bullet length varies.

Keep in mind also that if the seating stem does not fit the bullet very well, seating depth may vary, too. If the bullet is not perfectly straight, there will be variation introduced there, as well.

When you start counting nits, it gets real complicated.

Fortunately, we can control for many of the variables and we START LOW AND WORK UP our loads for each of our firearms, looking for signs of pressure and erratic behavior along the way.

Lost Sheep

jwrowland77 · May 1, 2012, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lost Sheep

Not quite. The length of the round from nose to tail is the OAL. But what really matters is the volume under the bullet. If the nose of the bullet is shaped a little differently than its brothers, the OAL is not a particularly good proxy for that volume. However, it is the only one we have, so we use it.

I guess I didn't say it quite right. What I was trying to say and what I meant was if you stay with in the min/max and it's good for your gun, then work up the load. I guess I didn't quite say it right the first time.

Like for my Walther PPS 9mm, I have no issues using out to a 1.165 OAL, functions great.

BigJimP · May 1, 2012, 11:18 AM

The 550 does not allow for the installation of a Dillon powder check die ...unless you combined the seating and final crimp into one station -- and Dillon recommends against that.

I think switching powders - to something with a higher volume...and looking at your procedures is probably all you'll need to do - to get your confidence back up. I don't load the caliber you are using ...but I would check Hodgdon Universal ...and see if their published load will give you what you need. Its a powder that's easy to find ...and I find it pretty versatile ...I'm using it in 9mm, .40S&W, .45 acp ..and .38 spl and .357 mag with good results...but I don't know if the spread between min and max is enough to give you the added safety factor.

I think RCBS might still make a combination seating / final crimp die ...vs the 2 stage dies that Dillon recommends ...and if you find a combo die that is acceptable on this caliber ...then the 550 would have station 3 open and you could install a powder check die in station 3. But the 5 station press ...allowing the powder check die ...is why Dillon made the 650 press / and the 650 is auto indexing as well ...so it takes one more human element out of the equation - because with the 550 you have to manually index it. I'm not saying the 550 is a bad press ...some of my buddies use the 550 with a lot of sucess ...but the 650 gives you the powder check tool head and auto indexing ...which are both a big plus to me ( because I primarily load high volumes of handgun ammo --- I'm going to range this am to meet a buddy ...and I have 6 boxes of 9mm, 3 boxes of .357 mag and about 300 rds of .22 ... practicing our draws, reloads, etc ( and one 1911 in 9mm / a pair of S&W revolvers a K frame and an N frame ...) so I like the fact that the 650 press, with a case feeder, lets me reload 1,000 rds an hour or so ..so its easy to build up an inventory of ammo ( and with the powder check die installed and operating properly ..) I know its all 100% ...makes me feel good because its me - my adult kids ..and my grandkids shooting that ammo ..and I have to know its all 100% or it would drive me nuts...

jimkimmons · May 1, 2012, 12:52 PM

Thanks BigJimP. I'll do precisely what you suggest. However, I have to drive 55 miles to buy power (still cheaper than hazmat fees), so I may try a few more with the HP-38 and better procedures. Thanks

BigJimP · May 1, 2012, 12:55 PM

You're welcome ...and good luck to you ....I did add another note to the above note ....on a combo die ....not sure if they're still available or not..

but good luck to you / I'm happy to respond on the forum but if you need something quicker drop me a private message ...and I'll respond same day usually. I'm off to range in a few minutes..

mikld · May 1, 2012, 01:17 PM

Can the Dillon progressive press be operated as a single stage? Untill you get used to reloading and the dangers involved (over/undercharging), perhaps using a press that only does one thing at a time will make the learning process easier.

If the bullet you're using has a cannalure or crimp groove, just seat the bullet to that depth and consider, for now, OAL as secondary (loads suggested for specific bullets take into consideration case capacity, bullet length, and available volume for powders).

jimkimmons · May 1, 2012, 08:34 PM

Yes, I can just put the case into whichever station I want it in, just can't have primers in the pipe so would need to prime then remove the rest.

I don't have any crimp groove in the bullets I bought, and I've got the overall length to the specs in the Hogdon reloading chart. I guess maybe they could be seated too deep. However, other than the one hot round, I'm not experiencing other problems that I know of.

I just reloaded some more with more care, and I'll know better after I get out to the range this week. Thanks for the help.

dmazur · May 1, 2012, 09:02 PM

Actually, the 550B automatic primer mechanism does nothing (as it is supposed to) if there is no case at Station 1. The primer in the slide just goes back and forth. It doesn't pick up a new primer until the slide is empty. The powder measure doesn't throw a charge into an empty station, either. So, you can use the 550B as a single stage press if you want.

As an alternative to using the 550B as a single stage, which involves loading trays to hold the "batch" in between steps, you might consider using it as kind of a twisted turret press.

Insert a case at Station 1, size / deprime / reprime.

Index to Station 2 and do the bell and powder charge.

Index to Station 3 and do the bullet seating to your desired depth.

Index to Station 4 and apply the crimp.

Index to the collection bin and check your finished round.

This probably resembles a turret press more than anything else, as only one operation is happening per handle pull. If you feel like adjusting something at a station, you aren't interrupting progressive operation. (Which is one way double charges and squibs happen...operator adjusting the powder throw at Station 2 during a "run" instead of making adjustments between runs.)

I pause after a run of 50 to box the completed rounds, label the box, check OAL and weigh a sample charge into a case I reserve for this. (It has a fired primer instead of a missing primer... )

That way, if something crazy happens to the press like the linkage for the powder measure partially disassembles itself, I only have to pull down one box.

This has only happened to me once, and I'm not going to join the club where the reloader has loaded 500 rds before he finds a mistake.

BigJimP · May 2, 2012, 12:21 PM

dmazur obviously has good procedures and its working for him ...

but a couple of things...and again, not that the 550 or any press that has no powder check is a poor press...it just raises some issues.

a. checking 1 in 10 / or 1 in 25 ....does not mean the other 9 or the other 24 rds were on target for powder drop - it means they probably were ..but ??. It is possible to get a bad drop in the middle of a 25 round run ...( nuts do come loose on powder measures, static elec issues, humidity issues, etc ...) ...

I was mentoring a buddy on Dillon 650 while his was on order / he was loading 600 rds before a class we were taking ...and at one point, powder measure started alerting us to an issue...powder drop was inconsistent. Up 0.2 ...down 0.2 ...and after getting 4 or 5 alerts in a row ...we shut everything down / pulled off powder measure ...found a loose nut and screw...tightened everything up / and proceeded right along. Because we had the powder check die installed ...we knew 100% of what we had completed was ok .../ only the 5 rds that alerted were bad ...we dumped the powder in those cases...recylced the cases thru the press..( we had to pull no bullets ). That is why a powder check, powder cop, etc is valuable.

Using a 550 as if it were a turret press....or a single stage is fine ....but it also introduces more chance of human error ( the more repetitive the process is .../ the more your eyes tend to glaze over / ...and potentially the bigger chance of a mistake). I hear it all the time ...single stages are fool proof ..and progressives are dangerous.../ a single stage operation is not fool proof...( the repetition is tedious )...and I loaded on single stage presses for a long time .../ but its still possible to make a mistake.

There is no substitute for making sure you really understand your press...and how and why it works ...how to lube it, etc.

One trick to making a press run a lot "smoother" is to make sure you use case lube, even on carbide dies, on every caliber...( I use Dillons spray lube ) but all the brands are pretty good.../ but using lube is a plus.

Glad to hear things went better yesterday.

dmazur · May 2, 2012, 01:42 PM

Point of clarification -

I use the 550B as a progressive press. The list of steps (above) was describing how it could be used as a turret press, if you wanted to watch each station while you are learning how the press works.

I also look into each case as I index the shellplate. I'm not going to spot a 0.2gr difference, but I'll definitely see a missing charge.

As much as possible, I reload without interruptions. However, if something happens and I have to leave the press, I leave the handle down. This means you are absolutely mid-stroke and you index after completing the stroke. It is one way of dealing with a manually-indexing press, to avoid double charging.

So far, the Dillon powder measures haven't given me much trouble. It throws +/- 0.1gr consistently. I had one event where I didn't assemble the linkage correctly.

I think of the periodic checks as a form of sampling for quality control, and not necessarily a proof that x many rounds are bad. As I said, it is better than reloading 500, doing a check at the end of that run and then wondering how many are bad...

Obviously, a powder check die is better. For 550B users, the choice is whether a combination seater/crimper would be as easy to use as separate dies, freeing a station.

jwrowland77 · May 2, 2012, 02:08 PM

I know that this may not be the most proper way to verify I don't have a double charge or no charge, but I have a dowel rod cut into pieces for each caliber and for each powder I have. After charging all the case I'm going to do, I stick the dowel rod in the case an verify against a line that is on the rod. If the line is where it should be then it's a go. If the line should disappear or be over the the case by a more than it should, then I dump the powder out (in the case of a double charge) and start over.

This is how I do it, but it seems to work and dowel rods are cheap.

BigJimP · May 2, 2012, 02:40 PM

In this discussion we have all tried to lay out the issues as we see it ...and I think its been an open discussion of pros and cons.../ there is no right or wrong answer as I see it.

Big picture - while we all have budgets...the difference between the 650 and the 550 is $ 127 ...but the conversion kits on the 650's are $ 78 vs $ 46 on the 550's ( primarily because you get some extra parts in the 650 conv kits ...with the case feeder adapter parts that come in the 650 kits) - or they'd be about the same price ...and the powder check die is $ 69 .... and not to be cavalier about the money ...but if you're buying a new press today .../ the decision between the 650 with a powder check die installed is around $ 250 more than a 550 press. I think includes the case feeder parts in the 650 conv kits - because they think most 650 users either have, or will buy, the casefeeder. Of course about 3 yrs ago ...they now have a case feeder that works on the 550 as well.

Safety and quality are 1st and foremost in my mind in terms of my reloads...and the powder check die makes the 650 a better value in my mind...primarily because of the additional safety backup it gives you ...

..and saving money is good, and I had this conversation with a buddy getting back into handguns...and considering getting rid of his old RCBS rockchucker...and going with a Dillon progressive.... the $ 250 difference ( or considering like Dmazur said - to go to a combo die on seating/crimp )..to get the powder check ...when most of us are saving $ 10 on a box of 50rds in
9mm ...and maybe $18 on a box of .45 acp by reloading ...means the payback on the $250 is really really quick .../ but in reality, we shoot 3 times as much - with the same ammo budget....( but my buddy is weighing the same issues you are ....550 vs 650 ...vs SDB .../ and powder check die !

jimkimmons · May 3, 2012, 08:43 AM

The discussion here has helped a lot, though I am a bit annoyed with myself for not studying more and getting the Dillon 650 instead of the 550. However, loaded up 100 more and going out this week to see how I did. Thanks.

BigJimP · May 3, 2012, 12:09 PM

I think Dillon does a poor job ...educating potential customers on the differences between the 550 and the 650 ..../ I think they believe folks are buying with short term focus on price...and to get too deep into the features seems like they're lecturing ...or saying the 550 is not a safe press....when it is safe....it just has limitations or differences.

Their SDB press ....does not have room for a powder check die either...

But remember Dillon equipment holds its resale value ....so selling a 550 and buying a 650 isn't like you're taking a $ 500 loss either...( any die you use in a 550 will work in the 650 as well / but if your experience - in this discussion - educates only 1 other person on the issues and differences...then personally I feel good. And no matter what you do - you'll be a better reloader down the road ...because you care about what you're doing...regardless of which press you settle on.

markr · May 3, 2012, 12:54 PM

There are hundreds of youtube video's for every press on the market. When I want to understand exactly how each press operates, I watch video's. Its free!

jimkimmons · May 3, 2012, 05:40 PM

Well, after all of the advice here, some changes to my procedures, working on my technique, I had a perfect day with 100 rounds. Though I know that weighing the full round isn't really a good yardstick, I did it anyway for this batch. OAL was great and consistent, and my optimal weight for a round should be right at 165-170 grains with 4.9 grains of HP-38 powder.

I went ahead and kept anything up to 175 grains in the batch, but had ten rounds that were at or around 178. Left them till last, all fired great. Unfortunately, forgot my tripod so couldn't find a way to set up my Beta Chrony. Anyway, thanks for the help, and I'll be working on it more and considering selling the 550B and moving up to 650. However, this batch I checked powder multiple times and was always +/- 0.1 grain.

April 30, 2012, 07:13 PM	#1
jimkimmons Member Join Date: May 3, 2011 Posts: 29	New to Reloading, Weight Variation Question Advice from someone with more experience in reloading would be appreciated. I'm using a Hogdon powder and their reloading data for 327 federal magnum. I had a somewhat less that stellar first outing with one very hot round. So, today I carefully weighed everything on a new digital scale. Weighing a primed case, bullet and powder charge, I came up with a number, but the bullets were varying by up to 5 grains and the primed brass by up to 3. So, I averaged five bullets and five primed brass, then added in my 4.9 grains of power, for a perfect weight of 167.0 grains for loaded round. However, even after repeated checks of powder measure, I'm getting loaded round weights of 166.5 to 168.0 at the high end. I kept for shooting anything up to 167.4, but not sure whether to fire the four rounds from 167.5 to 168 grains. I think they'd be allright, as the maximum charge is 5.4 grains, so going over by 0.5 would put me at 167.5, but leary of shooting those rounds. Obviously, the variances in weights of components could all skew to the high side on any one round and I'd still be in good shape with 168 if it was due to bullet and/or case weight. However, too new to this to get into risky behavior.

April 30, 2012, 07:59 PM	#7
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	I'm fairly new at the reloading game, so I figured I'd pipe in with what I found. I weighed every bullet from the 115 FMJ packages and saw a big variance, going from 114-115.6. This was going to drive me nuts. However the more reading I did, the more I realized that if the OAL is consistent and the powder charge is consistent, those are the things that matter. I do trim all my cases, and figure if my cases are the same length (for caliber being loaded), and my OAL is within .003 of each other, and powder charges are exact, then everything should be fairly safe. I do weigh out each individual load by hand though. Yeah it takes me a little time to load, but I figure I know without a doubt, what charge I have in each case. I can say this because after I charge a case, I immediately load a bullet in it. To me this makes for a better percentage of not having a double charge or not having a no charge. I loaded some with Titegroup this weekend an realized that if it wasn't for my charging then immediately loading a bullet, it could be very easy to double charge with Titegroup since it takes so little powder as compared to the case size. Just my observations since I started from a newbie point of view. Last edited by jwrowland77; April 30, 2012 at 08:18 PM.

April 30, 2012, 08:55 PM	#9
jimkimmons Member Join Date: May 3, 2011 Posts: 29	More Info Thanks for all of these great answers. As I figured, too much variation to weigh loaded rounds. I am using a brand new Dillon 550B, and I weighed five charges in a row on a digital scale and all within .1 grain. However, the concern comes from my first 30 with a chrony, and one round was really a lot hotter than the others, blowing out the back of the primer, but not hurting the gun at all, a Taurus M327. Went from around 1100 fps to over 1500 just for that round. All of the others pretty consistent. So, I assume that I overcharged it, though don't think I doubled it. I'm concerned that I don't have enough knowledge and experience with the Dillon to know if it's doing it's job properly, though like I said, five charges all almost exactly 4.9. However, interesting consideration about the small spread between a normal 4.8 load and the maximum of 5.4 which really throws up the pressure in the case to around 39,000. So, I think that my next trip to town, I'll go with a different powder, as SR-4756 has a spread from 4.7 to 5.8 at max load. A little more leeway there. However, suggestions welcome. Also, is there some add-on warning mechanism that will work with the Dillon 550B? Also, I am taking to heart the suggestion to perfect a consistent throw, as I now realize that could be the problem. I'm still experimenting with press height, etc. Again, I really appreciate the help I'm getting here. Last edited by jimkimmons; April 30, 2012 at 08:57 PM. Reason: Forgot something.

May 1, 2012, 11:18 AM	#12
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	The 550 does not allow for the installation of a Dillon powder check die ...unless you combined the seating and final crimp into one station -- and Dillon recommends against that. I think switching powders - to something with a higher volume...and looking at your procedures is probably all you'll need to do - to get your confidence back up. I don't load the caliber you are using ...but I would check Hodgdon Universal ...and see if their published load will give you what you need. Its a powder that's easy to find ...and I find it pretty versatile ...I'm using it in 9mm, .40S&W, .45 acp ..and .38 spl and .357 mag with good results...but I don't know if the spread between min and max is enough to give you the added safety factor. I think RCBS might still make a combination seating / final crimp die ...vs the 2 stage dies that Dillon recommends ...and if you find a combo die that is acceptable on this caliber ...then the 550 would have station 3 open and you could install a powder check die in station 3. But the 5 station press ...allowing the powder check die ...is why Dillon made the 650 press / and the 650 is auto indexing as well ...so it takes one more human element out of the equation - because with the 550 you have to manually index it. I'm not saying the 550 is a bad press ...some of my buddies use the 550 with a lot of sucess ...but the 650 gives you the powder check tool head and auto indexing ...which are both a big plus to me ( because I primarily load high volumes of handgun ammo --- I'm going to range this am to meet a buddy ...and I have 6 boxes of 9mm, 3 boxes of .357 mag and about 300 rds of .22 ... practicing our draws, reloads, etc ( and one 1911 in 9mm / a pair of S&W revolvers a K frame and an N frame ...) so I like the fact that the 650 press, with a case feeder, lets me reload 1,000 rds an hour or so ..so its easy to build up an inventory of ammo ( and with the powder check die installed and operating properly ..) I know its all 100% ...makes me feel good because its me - my adult kids ..and my grandkids shooting that ammo ..and I have to know its all 100% or it would drive me nuts... Last edited by BigJimP; May 1, 2012 at 12:54 PM.

May 1, 2012, 12:52 PM	#13
jimkimmons Member Join Date: May 3, 2011 Posts: 29	Will Check Procedure & Change Powder Thanks BigJimP. I'll do precisely what you suggest. However, I have to drive 55 miles to buy power (still cheaper than hazmat fees), so I may try a few more with the HP-38 and better procedures. Thanks

April 30, 2012, 07:25 PM	#2
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I've been reloading for 50 yrs ...off and on .... and as you've discovered...you can't weigh a finished round ...and know much of anything about it ...especially in terms of your powder drops. There is just too much variation in most cases ..and bullets...to be sure what you have in terms of powder ...because you're only loading ..4.9 grains of powder. If I were nervous enough to ask ...I'd say pull the bullets ...and check each powder drop with a scale ...and then evaluate your procedures. Ideally your goal is to find a powder...that will drop with no variation ...or certainly no more than + - 0.1 grain ....and make sure that + - keeps you in the mid range of your published load. Some powders have a min and max that is only 0.4 gr apart ....and they may not be good for your application / whatever press or powder measure you're using... You've already said you were spooked by a load that felt heavy .... So you need to pull all the bullets ...and check each round ...until you're confident that you are dropping exactly what your goal is for powder. There are presses now ....that have powder check dies, powder cop dies, lock out dies, etc ....but not all presses will allow their use ...but they will give you some great feedback on high volume handgun ammo ...if your powder drops go out of tolerance...I think they're great tools ../ and you might consider one of those presses if your press does not allow installation of one ( in general - you need a 5 station press - like the Dillon 650 to install one ). I wish you could ....but you can't get there by weighing finished cartridges../ not even if you sort cases by head stamp ...and bought them all new ...

April 30, 2012, 07:34 PM	#3
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	My personal procedure... when I startup my press....I weigh every powder drop for first 10 drops...( I usually cycle the press ...and dump the first 3 powder drops ...before I get started ). After the first 10 ...if they are 100% consistent ( + - 0.1 grain ) ....then I only check one in 10 ....again if its consistent....then only 1 in 25 ... Its a confidence thing...( making sure the press is clean, well tuned, no static elec in the powder measure, etc ...) ....and I want to see everything really consistent. I also have a powder check die installed ...and I make sure its working so it will alert me to any variation of 0.2gr at least ...( usually it alerts me to 0.1 grain variation ) .... I have a good light / good mirror set so I can look into the case after the powder drop ....but noones eyes can see a variation of 0.1 grain ...and maybe not 0.3 grain ....inside a case...its too hard to do ..in most powders. But at least a visual check ...tells you there is powder there...in some volume ...so you don't get a squib round .../ and if you pick a large volume powder...that fills the case close to half way ...if you got a double drop it wold show up as well.... but variations of 0.2 or 0.4 grains ...are never good ..../ and you want to strive for precision.../ and close tolerances.

April 30, 2012, 07:38 PM	#4
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	You have two critical measurements for your revolver rounds - the powder charge and the OAL length. Weighing completed cartridges tells you nothing as mentioned by Jim. I reload in batches on a single stage as I do not shoot the volume that Jim does in handguns. I drop 10 powder charges and dump them right back into the hopper and then weigh the charge. I keep the hopper filled between 1/3 and 2/3 full and I use the same type of stroke so the vibration treats each drop the same. My RCBS Uniflow can deliver a consistent drop, even with light loads for small cartridges like 32 ACP and 32 SWL, cartridges where, like Jim mentioned, the difference between start and max is maybe .5 grain Go over your methods and determine why your powder drops are inaccurate

April 30, 2012, 07:41 PM	#5
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Because a finished round feels a little different as you fire it ....doesn't mean it was a powder issue either .... maybe you seated a bullet a little deeper...or did something on the crimp or final station a little different...( all of that will make a difference too )... but powder drops are critical ...so you're smart ....not to just go and shoot them and risk your gun / or your hands and eyes...

April 30, 2012, 07:49 PM	#6
markr Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: Arsenal of Democracy Posts: 405	What he said^ You are putting too much energy into weighing completed rounds, at this point.....because the information isn't going to be terribly useful. Bullets and cases vary in weight, some more than others. Focus on throwing consistant powder charges, that is far more valuable.

April 30, 2012, 08:21 PM	#8
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,817	Your method has some possibility, but you would have to separate bullets and cases into .1 gr or similar increments to make this effective. Now, powder which measures ~5gr, usually meters well. That means it's weight for a given throw or volume is very accurate. Usually, I find pistol powders can be "thrown" to +/- 0.1 gr. to do this, you will need to practice a consistent throw technique. At first, I measured my fist 10 and then 1 in 10. Now I know my measure well enough to just check my first 3 and then about 1 in 50. I also visually check case powder fill 100% before putting the bullet in. So, the key to me is being sure of my powder measure technique. If thi is impossible, like with Reloader 19, I throw ~0.5-1 gr under, put it on the scale and trickle up to weight. I have a balance type scale, so this works. Avoid trickling on digital scales, unless rated for it. They can give bad readings. Last, get a scale you trust 100%, then buy check weights to prove it to yourself. If your powder measure doesn't throw +/-0.2 with 5gr charges ask the maker why. It is likely your setup, cleaning, configuration, etc. they know. Call them.

May 1, 2012, 12:55 PM	#14
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	You're welcome ...and good luck to you ....I did add another note to the above note ....on a combo die ....not sure if they're still available or not.. but good luck to you / I'm happy to respond on the forum but if you need something quicker drop me a private message ...and I'll respond same day usually. I'm off to range in a few minutes..

May 1, 2012, 01:17 PM	#15
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Can the Dillon progressive press be operated as a single stage? Untill you get used to reloading and the dangers involved (over/undercharging), perhaps using a press that only does one thing at a time will make the learning process easier. If the bullet you're using has a cannalure or crimp groove, just seat the bullet to that depth and consider, for now, OAL as secondary (loads suggested for specific bullets take into consideration case capacity, bullet length, and available volume for powders).

May 1, 2012, 08:34 PM	#16
jimkimmons Member Join Date: May 3, 2011 Posts: 29	Dillon as Single Stage & OAL Yes, I can just put the case into whichever station I want it in, just can't have primers in the pipe so would need to prime then remove the rest. I don't have any crimp groove in the bullets I bought, and I've got the overall length to the specs in the Hogdon reloading chart. I guess maybe they could be seated too deep. However, other than the one hot round, I'm not experiencing other problems that I know of. I just reloaded some more with more care, and I'll know better after I get out to the range this week. Thanks for the help.

May 1, 2012, 09:02 PM	#17
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	Actually, the 550B automatic primer mechanism does nothing (as it is supposed to) if there is no case at Station 1. The primer in the slide just goes back and forth. It doesn't pick up a new primer until the slide is empty. The powder measure doesn't throw a charge into an empty station, either. So, you can use the 550B as a single stage press if you want. As an alternative to using the 550B as a single stage, which involves loading trays to hold the "batch" in between steps, you might consider using it as kind of a twisted turret press. Insert a case at Station 1, size / deprime / reprime. Index to Station 2 and do the bell and powder charge. Index to Station 3 and do the bullet seating to your desired depth. Index to Station 4 and apply the crimp. Index to the collection bin and check your finished round. This probably resembles a turret press more than anything else, as only one operation is happening per handle pull. If you feel like adjusting something at a station, you aren't interrupting progressive operation. (Which is one way double charges and squibs happen...operator adjusting the powder throw at Station 2 during a "run" instead of making adjustments between runs.) I pause after a run of 50 to box the completed rounds, label the box, check OAL and weigh a sample charge into a case I reserve for this. (It has a fired primer instead of a missing primer... ) That way, if something crazy happens to the press like the linkage for the powder measure partially disassembles itself, I only have to pull down one box. This has only happened to me once, and I'm not going to join the club where the reloader has loaded 500 rds before he finds a mistake.

May 2, 2012, 12:21 PM	#18
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	dmazur obviously has good procedures and its working for him ... but a couple of things...and again, not that the 550 or any press that has no powder check is a poor press...it just raises some issues. a. checking 1 in 10 / or 1 in 25 ....does not mean the other 9 or the other 24 rds were on target for powder drop - it means they probably were ..but ??. It is possible to get a bad drop in the middle of a 25 round run ...( nuts do come loose on powder measures, static elec issues, humidity issues, etc ...) ... I was mentoring a buddy on Dillon 650 while his was on order / he was loading 600 rds before a class we were taking ...and at one point, powder measure started alerting us to an issue...powder drop was inconsistent. Up 0.2 ...down 0.2 ...and after getting 4 or 5 alerts in a row ...we shut everything down / pulled off powder measure ...found a loose nut and screw...tightened everything up / and proceeded right along. Because we had the powder check die installed ...we knew 100% of what we had completed was ok .../ only the 5 rds that alerted were bad ...we dumped the powder in those cases...recylced the cases thru the press..( we had to pull no bullets ). That is why a powder check, powder cop, etc is valuable. Using a 550 as if it were a turret press....or a single stage is fine ....but it also introduces more chance of human error ( the more repetitive the process is .../ the more your eyes tend to glaze over / ...and potentially the bigger chance of a mistake). I hear it all the time ...single stages are fool proof ..and progressives are dangerous.../ a single stage operation is not fool proof...( the repetition is tedious )...and I loaded on single stage presses for a long time .../ but its still possible to make a mistake. There is no substitute for making sure you really understand your press...and how and why it works ...how to lube it, etc. One trick to making a press run a lot "smoother" is to make sure you use case lube, even on carbide dies, on every caliber...( I use Dillons spray lube ) but all the brands are pretty good.../ but using lube is a plus. Glad to hear things went better yesterday.

May 2, 2012, 01:42 PM	#19
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	Point of clarification - I use the 550B as a progressive press. The list of steps (above) was describing how it could be used as a turret press, if you wanted to watch each station while you are learning how the press works. I also look into each case as I index the shellplate. I'm not going to spot a 0.2gr difference, but I'll definitely see a missing charge. As much as possible, I reload without interruptions. However, if something happens and I have to leave the press, I leave the handle down. This means you are absolutely mid-stroke and you index after completing the stroke. It is one way of dealing with a manually-indexing press, to avoid double charging. So far, the Dillon powder measures haven't given me much trouble. It throws +/- 0.1gr consistently. I had one event where I didn't assemble the linkage correctly. I think of the periodic checks as a form of sampling for quality control, and not necessarily a proof that x many rounds are bad. As I said, it is better than reloading 500, doing a check at the end of that run and then wondering how many are bad... Obviously, a powder check die is better. For 550B users, the choice is whether a combination seater/crimper would be as easy to use as separate dies, freeing a station.

May 2, 2012, 02:08 PM	#20
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	I know that this may not be the most proper way to verify I don't have a double charge or no charge, but I have a dowel rod cut into pieces for each caliber and for each powder I have. After charging all the case I'm going to do, I stick the dowel rod in the case an verify against a line that is on the rod. If the line is where it should be then it's a go. If the line should disappear or be over the the case by a more than it should, then I dump the powder out (in the case of a double charge) and start over. This is how I do it, but it seems to work and dowel rods are cheap.

May 2, 2012, 02:40 PM	#21
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	In this discussion we have all tried to lay out the issues as we see it ...and I think its been an open discussion of pros and cons.../ there is no right or wrong answer as I see it. Big picture - while we all have budgets...the difference between the 650 and the 550 is $ 127 ...but the conversion kits on the 650's are $ 78 vs $ 46 on the 550's ( primarily because you get some extra parts in the 650 conv kits ...with the case feeder adapter parts that come in the 650 kits) - or they'd be about the same price ...and the powder check die is $ 69 .... and not to be cavalier about the money ...but if you're buying a new press today .../ the decision between the 650 with a powder check die installed is around $ 250 more than a 550 press. I think includes the case feeder parts in the 650 conv kits - because they think most 650 users either have, or will buy, the casefeeder. Of course about 3 yrs ago ...they now have a case feeder that works on the 550 as well. Safety and quality are 1st and foremost in my mind in terms of my reloads...and the powder check die makes the 650 a better value in my mind...primarily because of the additional safety backup it gives you ... ..and saving money is good, and I had this conversation with a buddy getting back into handguns...and considering getting rid of his old RCBS rockchucker...and going with a Dillon progressive.... the $ 250 difference ( or considering like Dmazur said - to go to a combo die on seating/crimp )..to get the powder check ...when most of us are saving $ 10 on a box of 50rds in 9mm ...and maybe $18 on a box of .45 acp by reloading ...means the payback on the $250 is really really quick .../ but in reality, we shoot 3 times as much - with the same ammo budget....( but my buddy is weighing the same issues you are ....550 vs 650 ...vs SDB .../ and powder check die !

May 3, 2012, 08:43 AM	#22
jimkimmons Member Join Date: May 3, 2011 Posts: 29	Thanks The discussion here has helped a lot, though I am a bit annoyed with myself for not studying more and getting the Dillon 650 instead of the 550. However, loaded up 100 more and going out this week to see how I did. Thanks.

May 3, 2012, 12:09 PM	#23
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I think Dillon does a poor job ...educating potential customers on the differences between the 550 and the 650 ..../ I think they believe folks are buying with short term focus on price...and to get too deep into the features seems like they're lecturing ...or saying the 550 is not a safe press....when it is safe....it just has limitations or differences. Their SDB press ....does not have room for a powder check die either... But remember Dillon equipment holds its resale value ....so selling a 550 and buying a 650 isn't like you're taking a $ 500 loss either...( any die you use in a 550 will work in the 650 as well / but if your experience - in this discussion - educates only 1 other person on the issues and differences...then personally I feel good. And no matter what you do - you'll be a better reloader down the road ...because you care about what you're doing...regardless of which press you settle on.

May 3, 2012, 12:54 PM	#24
markr Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: Arsenal of Democracy Posts: 405	There are hundreds of youtube video's for every press on the market. When I want to understand exactly how each press operates, I watch video's. Its free!

May 3, 2012, 05:40 PM	#25
jimkimmons Member Join Date: May 3, 2011 Posts: 29	110 Rounds No Problems Well, after all of the advice here, some changes to my procedures, working on my technique, I had a perfect day with 100 rounds. Though I know that weighing the full round isn't really a good yardstick, I did it anyway for this batch. OAL was great and consistent, and my optimal weight for a round should be right at 165-170 grains with 4.9 grains of HP-38 powder. I went ahead and kept anything up to 175 grains in the batch, but had ten rounds that were at or around 178. Left them till last, all fired great. Unfortunately, forgot my tripod so couldn't find a way to set up my Beta Chrony. Anyway, thanks for the help, and I'll be working on it more and considering selling the 550B and moving up to 650. However, this batch I checked powder multiple times and was always +/- 0.1 grain.