How to "wing it"

Rustle in the Bushes · August 9, 2011, 11:42 PM

Im fairly new to this game and was wondering about bullet/powder combinations that one is unable to find in a book. for example I have data for a 174 gr fmjbt but I DONT have data for 174 gr HPBT. Are these similar enough to use the data listed for the FMJBT for the HPBT?

Does the brand of bullet matter as well? how does the crafty reloader safely figure this stuff out?

dmazur · August 10, 2011, 12:48 AM

I'm relatively new as well (maybe 10 yrs experience...), but I believe you can safely use load data for bullets of the same weight and similar profile from different manufacturers.

Notes:

1. Lead data is not the same as jacketed data, even if the profile is the same, due to higher friction developed by jacketed bullets.

2. If a bullet has a gas check, it is for a reason. You can't substitute a similar bullet without a gas check.

3. Boat-tail bullets often have different data than standard jacketed bullets of a similar profile. (Due to shorter contact area with the boat-tail.)

4. COL may vary between manufacturers even for similar profiles, if the profiles are not exactly the same.

5. All copper bullets have different data than jacketed lead bullets.

An example of this is Hornady 150gr FMJBT bullets, used in .30-06 for a Garand. The COL is far shorter than that of the military surplus 150gr cartridges, but both bullets are full metal jacket and both are 150gr.

Jim243 · August 10, 2011, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Are these similar enough to use the data listed for the FMJBT for the HPBT?

Yes, for same weight bullet, use the same data but start at MIN powder and work up in small increments.

Quote:

Does the brand of bullet matter as well

Yes, the profile (shape) will be different and OAL might change. As long as the space within the case remains the same the pressure level will also remain the same. As long as both are jacketed bullets and the same length then you will be allright. But JHP and FMJ are not the same length so be carefull when seating the bullets. Again start at min and adjust up slowly.

Jim

Shootest · August 10, 2011, 08:00 AM

Both the same weight and both jacketed, then the same starting charge is OK. These small differences are the reason we start with a low charge and carefully work up, while checking for pressure signs.

Rustle in the Bushes · August 10, 2011, 09:49 AM

solid gold you guys, thanks

F. Guffey · August 10, 2011, 10:08 AM

If there ever was a good case to be made to prove some of this stuff is made up, this it it..

Hodgdon has a web site, Accurate has a web sith, Hornady has a web sight, there is no excuse for winging it. I called Hodgdon and suggested they could have made a mistake, and I am glad I said 'could have' because I was comparing weight of powder for bullets that weight the same.....and they said both data listings are bullet specific.

And I was not the first to call.

F. Guffey

snuffy · August 10, 2011, 11:06 AM

Quote:

If there ever was a good case to be made to prove some of this stuff is made up, this it it..

I would change that statement to say "if ever there was a case for somebody scared of their own shadow, this is it".

F. Guff should never try to load any surplus powder. Or try to load a wildcat cartridge, there just isn't any info printed on a website or in any manual. Surplus powder distributors give a reference to commercial canister powders that are similar to what they're selling. It's up to an experienced reloader to start very low and work up a load. Not something a rookie loader should attempt.

The above advice concerning the same weight, construction, and shape is good. Start at the recommended starting load and work up. Construction is important. Most bullets are cup & core. Meaning a guilding metal cup has a lead core swaged into it, then the final shape is formed. Then there's the solid copper bullets, or solid guilding metal bullets. They are much longer than conventional cup & core bullets. Therefore the bore friction is higher, causing higher pressure.

amamnn · August 10, 2011, 05:44 PM

When I saw the title of this post I was tempted to answer without reading any of it that new reloaders who "wing it" are quite likely to get "winged" if not worse. But I read it and my mind was not changed. So what follows is written tongue in cheek, but the story is true; only the names have been changed to protect the innocent component and rifle manufacturers.

As has been mentioned--new handloaders are well advised to stick with the specific data in a good manual for their apprenticeship. Bullet construction has a direct effect upon bearing surface which has a direct bearing upon start (usually max) pressure which has a direct effect upon safety at the range. Mistakes can be made--not only by neophytes, but also by the old hands. Still, it is a lot more likely that a catastrophic failure in a firearm was caused by a reloader who had less than 6 months experience than by any other person. These people also tend to be bad car insurance risks as well.

I have had the unpleasant experience of sitting at the bench next to a newbie who "winged it" and blew up his rifle. Luckily, his face absorbed most of the splinters and the only thing I suffered was a slight nick in the paint of my front rest. Still, the screaming and blood was upsetting to the guy on the far side of me and his wife.....................

Shootest · August 10, 2011, 06:50 PM

Quote:

If there ever was a good case to be made to prove some of this stuff is made up, this it it..

Hodgdon has a web site, Accurate has a web sith, Hornady has a web sight, there is no excuse for winging it. I called Hodgdon and suggested they could have made a mistake, and I am glad I said 'could have' because I was comparing weight of powder for bullets that weight the same.....and they said both data listings are bullet specific.

And I was not the first to call.

F. Guffey

So I guess since no one list data for my home cast or swaged bullets I can’t safely load them. And to think I have been doing it for 30 years and just getting lucky. Wish my lottery luck was as good.

wncchester · August 10, 2011, 06:56 PM

Bottom line, no book charges are automatically safe for anyone. Books are just guides, not infallable bibles. A safe reloader has to start load development low and work charges up slowly, exercising attention and good judgement to see if he needs to stop before reaching book max. That's not 'winging it", that's using common sense. IF we were robots dutifully dupicating book loads we would not be taking advantage of the greatest potential of handloading, producing custom ammo for our own firearms. And there are a LOT of bullets out there for which there is not and never will be any specific loading data.

In effect, that means all reloading data is generic by powder type and bullet weight. Bullet form, brand, construction, small weight variations, case and primer and powder lot used, etc, are all compensated for in proper load development while no book info is safe if the loader works mindlessly.

August 9, 2011, 11:42 PM	#1
Rustle in the Bushes Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2011 Location: Canada- West Posts: 175	How to "wing it" Im fairly new to this game and was wondering about bullet/powder combinations that one is unable to find in a book. for example I have data for a 174 gr fmjbt but I DONT have data for 174 gr HPBT. Are these similar enough to use the data listed for the FMJBT for the HPBT? Does the brand of bullet matter as well? how does the crafty reloader safely figure this stuff out?

August 10, 2011, 06:56 PM	#10
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	Bottom line, no book charges are automatically safe for anyone. Books are just guides, not infallable bibles. A safe reloader has to start load development low and work charges up slowly, exercising attention and good judgement to see if he needs to stop before reaching book max. That's not 'winging it", that's using common sense. IF we were robots dutifully dupicating book loads we would not be taking advantage of the greatest potential of handloading, producing custom ammo for our own firearms. And there are a LOT of bullets out there for which there is not and never will be any specific loading data. In effect, that means all reloading data is generic by powder type and bullet weight. Bullet form, brand, construction, small weight variations, case and primer and powder lot used, etc, are all compensated for in proper load development while no book info is safe if the loader works mindlessly. Last edited by wncchester; August 10, 2011 at 07:05 PM.

August 10, 2011, 12:48 AM	#2
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	I'm relatively new as well (maybe 10 yrs experience...), but I believe you can safely use load data for bullets of the same weight and similar profile from different manufacturers. Notes: 1. Lead data is not the same as jacketed data, even if the profile is the same, due to higher friction developed by jacketed bullets. 2. If a bullet has a gas check, it is for a reason. You can't substitute a similar bullet without a gas check. 3. Boat-tail bullets often have different data than standard jacketed bullets of a similar profile. (Due to shorter contact area with the boat-tail.) 4. COL may vary between manufacturers even for similar profiles, if the profiles are not exactly the same. 5. All copper bullets have different data than jacketed lead bullets. An example of this is Hornady 150gr FMJBT bullets, used in .30-06 for a Garand. The COL is far shorter than that of the military surplus 150gr cartridges, but both bullets are full metal jacket and both are 150gr.

August 10, 2011, 08:00 AM	#4
Shootest Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2011 Location: Just outside Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 722	Both the same weight and both jacketed, then the same starting charge is OK. These small differences are the reason we start with a low charge and carefully work up, while checking for pressure signs.

August 10, 2011, 09:49 AM	#5
Rustle in the Bushes Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2011 Location: Canada- West Posts: 175	solid gold you guys, thanks

August 10, 2011, 10:08 AM	#6
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	If there ever was a good case to be made to prove some of this stuff is made up, this it it.. Hodgdon has a web site, Accurate has a web sith, Hornady has a web sight, there is no excuse for winging it. I called Hodgdon and suggested they could have made a mistake, and I am glad I said 'could have' because I was comparing weight of powder for bullets that weight the same.....and they said both data listings are bullet specific. And I was not the first to call. F. Guffey

August 10, 2011, 05:44 PM	#8
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	When I saw the title of this post I was tempted to answer without reading any of it that new reloaders who "wing it" are quite likely to get "winged" if not worse. But I read it and my mind was not changed. So what follows is written tongue in cheek, but the story is true; only the names have been changed to protect the innocent component and rifle manufacturers. As has been mentioned--new handloaders are well advised to stick with the specific data in a good manual for their apprenticeship. Bullet construction has a direct effect upon bearing surface which has a direct bearing upon start (usually max) pressure which has a direct effect upon safety at the range. Mistakes can be made--not only by neophytes, but also by the old hands. Still, it is a lot more likely that a catastrophic failure in a firearm was caused by a reloader who had less than 6 months experience than by any other person. These people also tend to be bad car insurance risks as well. I have had the unpleasant experience of sitting at the bench next to a newbie who "winged it" and blew up his rifle. Luckily, his face absorbed most of the splinters and the only thing I suffered was a slight nick in the paint of my front rest. Still, the screaming and blood was upsetting to the guy on the far side of me and his wife.....................