Who actually manufactures brass?

[jadams93117]

Greetings from Goleta, California. I am brand new to this forum, so please forgive me if I do not quite understand protocol. I chose this particular group because it seems to be the best fit for my question.

Background: I turned 74 last March, and I decided to give myself a birthday present, so I purchased a Savage Model 12 in .223. I roll my own, so I purchased a batch of Winchester bulk brass from Midway, plus some Match King's and proceeded to load 50 rounds. I then settled down to await my new gun.

The first time up at the range, I soon found that about 10% of the rounds would not eject! Dear me. I consulted a good friend who owns a custom reloading company here in Goleta, and he remarked that he had found some bad lots of Winchester brass lately. On his advice, I purchased 300 rounds of bulk Remington brass. On a hunch, I tried feeding a few of the Remington through the Savage, and low and behold, about 10% failed to eject!

I made a lot of measurements of case heads, plus did a close visual inspection of brass that ejected and brass that did not. I found that the only difference I could detect was that the grove behind the head (sorry, I don't know it's official name) differed between the brass that would eject and that which did not. The chamfer (the tapered part) in the brass that did not eject extended closer to the rim than it did in the brass that worked OK.

I have noticed the same defect in the Winchester brass, which set me to wondering. How much brass is really made by the company on the head stamp, and how much is actually made by some other company with the "brand" stamped into the head? In other words, was my Remington and Winchester brass made in a factory actually owned and controlled by Remington or Winchester, or was it made in a bulk brass factory and just head stamped for the customer? I spent about an hour Googling to try to find the answer, so I decided to join a shooter's forum and ask if someone knows the answer.

I have heard some good words about Lapua brass, so I have ordered 100 rounds of unprimed brass. I'll post how it works.

Thanks for any light you can shed - and have a great 4th.

Jerry Adams
Goleta, CA

[Unclenick]

Welcome to the forum.

I can't tell if you are referring to the shoulder of the case, where the wide diameter tapers down to the neck, or to the forward relief angle in the extractor groove. I would have a few of the empty cases chambered by a friend with another rifle the same caliber. Make sure the Savage chamber isn't too tight or the extractor isn't malfunctioning.

I keep hearing tales of foreign contract brass, but I haven't actually layed hands on any that I know of. The last bag of Winchester I bought said Made in USA in the lower right corner. I'd call their customer service and just ask. They'll probably replace if for you if it's bad. Same for the Remington, though the fact two brands did this to you suggests a gun rather than a brass issue.

Call Savage customer service, too, and ask them if this is a problem that has cropped up before with the rifle. Even if it isn't the gun, they probably will have heard from other customers having the same problem with brass, and that would be worth knowing, too, as it would give you more ammunition for making a case for returning it.

[Dapperdan]

I have read that Winchester makes their own brass, as to the others I haven't a clue. One thing I forgot(among many others, I'm told)is that I should size new brass before I load it, I didn't the last batch of 44 Special. Bullets were what I would call was a loose fit. They chambered and fired fine, they were light loads, but the next time I loaded them there were no issues with bullet fit. Shoulda and did know better, but all is well.. Sorry I couldn't be of much help. Good luck and Happy Independence Day to you, sir!

[jadams93117]

Thanks for the reply.

I am referring to the grove behind the head where the extractor grips the case, not the neck.

Jerry

[Geezerbiker]

I think the problem is more likely the rifle than the brass. My 2, 223 Rem rifles both eject every odd brand of ammo I've ever fed them...

Tony

[Unclenick]

That's the extractor groove then. If you can post pictures, that will help, but here are the specs:

Thickness of the rim (I know, I know, they call it rimless case, but it's still a rim) can be anything from .035" to .045". The diameter of the rim can be anything from .368" to .378".

The floor of the extractor groove (the short cylindrical bottom of the groove) can be anything from .030" to .040" long, and its diameter can be anything from .312" to .332".

The angle or bevel coming out of the groove can be anything from 19° to 25°, and the diameter at the forward wide spot can be .3679" to .3759".

That you've got differences in the cases, if they all meet those specifications, will be due to coming off different tooling.

[jadams93117]

Please see the attached PDF file. I did some considerable amount of head scratching on this.


Thanks!

Jerry

ATTEMPT TO DETERMINE WHY SOME BRASS WOULD NOT EJECT.pdf

A FOLLOW UP ON THE BRASS NOT EJECTING PROBLEM.pdf

[jadams93117]

I'm going to have to shut down the computer until tomorrow. I don't let it run over night. Keeps hackers away, saves on the old electric bill. I'll check back tomorrow.

Good shooting to all,

Jerry

[mehavey]

Take a look at the following pictures:

1903 Springfield Bolt Face



Savage Model 12 Bolt Face


Note that massive claw extractor in the Springfield compared to the Savage. If there is any misfit/misshape of the Savage extractor it will be prone to failure.

Take the bolt out and see how well the extractor groove and extractor mate up when you slip a case under it. It may be that you find you need to relieve a very small amount of the extractor claw underside to make the angle sharper for a better/maximized grip.

(NOTE: You also need to make sure the Savage extractor is totally free to move out/not bind up in its bolt cutout slot. The push-feed design requires the extractor slip out & over the rim w/ no interference whatsoever. The extractor return spring must also be strong enough to securely hold the rim once engaged.)

[Shane Tuttle]

FYI: Winchester doesn't make their own brass, per se. Olin makes the brass for Winchester.

[Dapperdan]

I have heard in some ads from awhile ago that Winchester(via Olin)is the only company that draws their own brass, kind of a caveat that other companies do not. Hard to believe that somebody as large as Remington, for example, outsources their brass, but,to whom, has always puzzled me. What about Starline, Hornady, Nosler, etc.? Anyone got the skinny on this? Is it also true that Olin recently moved operations to somewhere in the South, Mississippi sticks in my mind? Union contract negotiations did not work out in East Alton as I recall, but I could be mistaken. Have a good day, all.

[Shootest]

Starline draws their own brass, always have. They also make brass for others. Which others, I couldn’t say. For large orders (I think 100,000 min.) they will custom headstamp, with anything that will fit. I have thousands of Midway brass that were made by Starline.
PMC makes their own brass. PMC actually stands for Pan Metal Corporation, not (as advertising suggests) for precision made cartridge. Metal pans, metal cartridges, see the connection?
As for the others, I have no idea.

[Shane Tuttle]

Shootest is right about Starline, Dapperdan. They've been making their own since they opened their doors. And it's REALLY good brass...

[jadams93117]

"meheavy's" post is exactly along the lines that I have been thinking.

I have done a lot of examination of the bolt face/cartridge head interface, and I have tentatively concluded that the problem is with the extractor more than the brass. If I work the action slowly, I can hear a definite "clink" when the bolt is about a half inch rearwards. Here's my theory:

When the bolt is closed, the extractor grips the brass regardless of the configuration of the head. (I have never observed a failure to extract, only to cleanly eject). When the bolt is opened, the neck of the case moves backwards until it enters the chamber. If the extractor can hold the brass against the bolt to the point where the mouth of the case clears the "port" in the receiver, the ejector then kicks the brass clear. If the ejector can't grip the brass well enough, when the neck of the brass clears the throat in the chamber, the "tilt" allows the brass to slip out of the extractor, at which point the ejector pushes it away from the bolt. Once that happens, the brass is left in the receiver.

If the grove in the head is sufficiently wide so that it allows the ejector to fully seat behind the rim, all works as advertised. Any change in the geometry of the brass - even if it is within the tolerances given by "unclenick" (a big thank you goes to him for doing this) that in any way prevents the extractor from fully gripping the rim would allow the brass to slip out of the extractor.

I am thinking that the problem may well be a weak extractor spring. That would explain a lot. I really don't want to go to the hassle of shipping the rifle back to the factory, maybe they can deal with just the bolt. I am going to call Savage and see if they can shed any light on the problem.

Thank you so much to all who have contributed to this little discussion.

Sincerely,

Jerry A.

[Unclenick]

Jerry,

SAAMI follows the old engineering practice of specifying the more critical end of a tolerance range, then giving the other end as a + number or a - number. They do not aim for the middle of the range and give a ± number because that does not identify the more critical limit. As a result of the potential to jam things together, chamber dimensions are given as minimum numbers with a + tolerance, while cartridges are given as maximum numbers with a - tolerance. So, where you refer to the dimensions you got from the manuals as "standard", they are actually maximums. You can see the SAAMI drawings for the .223 cartridge on page 41 (p. 47, as the Acrobat Reader counts them) of the SAAMI rifle spec document. A link to that and to pistol, rimfire, and shotgun specs is in the first post of this thread.

All your cases are in spec except for rim thickness, which is excessive on some of your measurements. I am going to guess they are incorrect due to caliper limitations and that rested on a surface plate and touched by a height gauge, they would come out correct. Nonetheless, the pattern is pretty simple: the thicker rims are retained within the bolt face recess by the extractor, while the thinner ones slip out before the case mouth clears the chamber, and thus fall away from the ejector before they eject. The mouth must clear the chamber under ejector pressure to be thrown clear of the loading port.

You can prove the above is the problem to yourself pretty easily. Chamber some of the offending cases. Lift the bolt handle, then pull the bolt back hard and fast, as is done in rapid fire. I expect that to cause the case mouth to clear the chamber before the case can fall away from the bolt face and ejector, and so to eject the round successfully. This is a common problem. Even my expensive Steyr Scout leaves .308 cases inside the action if I don't eject them fast. Since that's how the Colonel wanted them operated, I've never corrected it, but if I stop being so lazy, I will.

There are a couple of possible solutions. One is to use the depth stem on your caliper (I'm assuming it has one; some older ones don't) to measure the protrusion of the ejector from the bolt face. The other measurement is a little more difficult. You want to measure how far forward of the bolt face the inside edge of the extractor hook is (how deep a space is that is being hooked; mashing a spare .22 rimfire round's bullet sideways into the claw will get you an impression to measure). Call Savage CS to ask if both are within specification? If you explain your problem to them they might send you a longer ejector or a shorter extractor claw, either one of which would solve the problem.

RE domestic brass, Olin, Federal, Starline, Scharch, and Lake City make their own for sure, plus there are a bunch of smaller outfits cranking out lathe-turned brass on CNC machines for obsolete CAS rounds, in particular. PMC used to make their own, but they were bought out by Poongsan, in South Korea, which makes commercial ammo for export. I have no idea whether they supplanted the American manufacturing entirely or not, but the PMC web site does not appear to have been updated since 2007.

[jadams93117]

You just touched on "the straw that broke the camel's back" for yours truly. I went to the Savage web site, and they did not list an 800 number for customer support! All five - count 'em five of their contact numbers listed are in the 413 area code. On top of that, the number for "parts and service" has the following beneath it:

"(please have your serial number and credit card handy.)"

There are separate numbers for:

Historical Information
Instruction Manuals
Catalogs
Parts and Service
Special Orders

No contact number given for technical support, or questions in general.

I really don't want to do business with a company that does not support its customers.

I bought the Savage to have some fun up at the range, not to deal with their manufacturing problems. I am going to give some serious thought to putting the Savage up for sale and buying another rifle - one that will not give me so much grief.

A very good friend of mine recommends the CZ 527 Varmint. He owns one, and says that it is not a bench rest rifle, but it shoots as well as he does (he's about two years younger than I am), and they don't cost more than I can afford (I have about $900 invested in the Savage, not counting the scope which as a birthday present from my wife). Do any of you most helpful people know anything about the CZ 527?

Thanks everyone for all of your help. Yous is good people.

Jerry

[Geezerbiker]

This is why they have dealers. Talk to the guys at the shop where you bought it.

Tony

[Unclenick]

Jerry,

I did a little web research and it turns out your problem is not unique. One thread said to call Savage and ask for Effie Sullivan, as she had dealt with the problem many times.

Another post also suggested you call Sharpshooter Supply, here in Ohio. It's a Savage aftermarket accuracy and accessory company. Apparently they make an extra long ejector for this issue. (419) 695-3179.

The whole thread is worth reading. It is here.

I don't think lack of an 800 number is any longer the indicator of poor commitment to customer service I would once have taken it to be. I've noticed 800 numbers are gradually becoming less common overall. I think their benefit to companies is diminishing. Most folks have unused cell phone minutes without limits on where they are spent. Also, if you have a Google gmail account, it currently let's you call domestic numbers free over your computer with a headset and microphone plugged in.

The Savages have such great accuracy potential that I hate to see you give up on it before you even get to wring it out. As I said, even Steyr Scouts have the problem you describe, and for a rather higher price. I consider the ejection issue a pretty minor annoyance when compared to correcting a gun that is difficult to get good groups from.

Nick

[Jerry45]

My wife had a Savage model 25 in .223 did exacry the same thing with three different brands of ammo. It alos had failuers to fire. Put ammo in another rifle and bang. We exchanged it and no moer problems.

[jadams93117]

Hi Nick-

Parenthetical comment: You have the same first name as my brother, who does not shoot. Kind of strange talking to "Nick" about guns...

Thank you very much for all of the work you have put into my problem.

You know what, I do have some spare cell phone minutes. I use it like a two-way radio. I call home to tell my wife that I made it up the hill when I am at the range, but otherwise it just sits on the kitchen counter turned off, so there are always spare minutes laying around waiting to be used. I am going to take your advice and give Ms. Sullivan a call and see what she has to say - it will have to be tomorrow, as they are closed by now.

It does give me pause that they know about the problem but still sell guns that have it. Why not install the right extractor in the first place?

I do like the gun overall - the stock fits me pretty well for an off-the-shelf gun, and with the Elite scope that was a birthday present from my wife mounted on it, well, overall it is a great gun that is fun to shoot.

The trigger needs something done to it... Not sure what. However, if I can get it to eject properly, it might be worth looking into the trigger problem. All it may need is a bit of work polishing the sear with jeweler's rouge... One step at a time...

Thanks again.

Jerry

[mehavey]

What you are experiencing--premature case separation from the extractor--is a weakness in all the common push-feed bolt designs. It is not Savage specific.

The spring-driven ejector-plunger is (literally) spring-loaded to push the case off at an angle as the case body clears the chamber, and that angle then causes the the extractor to lose its grip in the case groove.

Operate the bolt quickly and everything works like a charm.
Operate the bolt slowly and the case is left in the action.
("Some" people like it that way)

It's one of those "undocumented design features" which has caused a number of manufacturers to go back to the Mauser/Springfield open bolt-face/controlled-feed configuration. That design has not only a massive extractor, but a fixed-position ejector that doesn't come into play until the case clears the receiver cutout.

[wncchester]

Not that it matters but I don't think Winchester arms owns Winchester ammo at all. The Olin company sold the firearms division decades ago but retained the name for ammo production.

[William T. Watts]

jadams93117 Savage customer service isn't all that good, I spent over a year trying to get them to rebarrel a model 114 30/06 that had an oversized bore (.3018). When they finally contacted me they wanted to know if my problem had been resolved, needless to say I gave them a ear full. They did ship a container to me to return the rifle in, when the rifle was returned to me the bore was still .3018, I suspect they never touched it. I boxed the rifle up went to the closest retailer and traded it. William

[10-96]

JADADAMS- This isn't a reloading reply, but you asked about the CZ527- I have that model in both the Varmint (laminated stock) and the American. They are very fine rifles. I've never loaded anything heavier than 55gr, and for poking holes in paper- you can't beat anything between the 52gr match bullets or even those bulk 55gr Varmint Nightmare soft tips from Midsouth anyway. The single set trigger is fantastic- I love that thing. My only gripe is the "shoulder knuckle" for lack of better terms is kinda high- it rubs on the ocular bell of my scope when I lift the knob and cycle the action. I ground out some relief in that area and cold-blued it to give it some clearance. Not a big deal and it does not look totally awful. Both bbl's are sufficiently free floated, the finish was good and even all over, and I removed the sling studs. The magazines remind me of the old Remington 788's as they are removable single stack 5 rounders- some folks don't like this, but it does not bother me.

Maybe half the time, I don't load the magazines. Old timer used to say you had to press on side of the exractor to chamber a round in the old Mauser actions. I don't have to do this with the CZ which is a miniature Mauser type action. Somehow those folks found a way to mill or taper the griping edge so that it slips over the rim while the bolt cams to it's locking position- so I just poke the ctg about half way in the chamber and let the bolt do the rest. Oh, and if you buy one- try to get them to toss a set of rings in on the deal. CZ rings are proprietary and only 2 or 3 companies make them and I think they are all over $40.00 per set. As good as many other manufacturers reputations are for .223 boltactions- I absolutely will not be swayed from the CZ's, even if they bring out another Remington 788.