Pistol Accuracy

[jbrown13]

I regularly read 3 reloading forums and I'm not sure where I have read these terms about accuracy, so go easy on me.

Anyway I have heard the term "mechanical accuracy" of a pistol, but without any examples to help me understand what I should strive for in accuracy. I have also read that pistol loads cannot be dialed in as rifle loads can because of this mechanical accuracy/inaccuracy. Again, I haven't read any hard numbers such as 3" groups at 25 yards off a sandbag rest is about the best one can expect out of a Glock 34. I have also read from some posters that they have achieved 5 shot groups at 25 yards that form 1 ragged hole.

I have tried six different powders, loaded with trickled charges in .1 grain increments from minimum to maximum, and quite frankly don't know how to judge whether I've attained the best accuracy possible or not. I'm 65 and have rather poor eyesight so I've had younger guys with better eyesight and better shooting skills shoot a number of these test loads, and I can tell you I'm nowhere near 1 ragged hole at 25 yards. The best I have attained is maybe a 3" five shot group at 25 yards.

I have only tried one bullet, a 115 grain CMJ Round Nose from Montana Gold. I have tried the following powders: AA#2, AA#5, Bullseye, Titegroup, Universal and Win 231.

Can you all give me some sort of consensus at what kind of accuracy can be expected from a Glock 34 and the 115 MGs?

[kodiakbeer]

I'd say a 3" group at 25 yards with a Glock is outstanding accuracy!

To get any better than that you're going to have to go into a high dollar match 1911 or a fine revolver.

[SL1]

To test your loads in a consistent manner, you will need to shoot them yourself.

For your aging eyes, try a pair of glasses that are designed to focus YOUR eyes at the distance of your front sight.

For a rest, try to support your handgun FRAME on a rest and your FOREARMS on individual rests, so that the barrel and the butt of the grip do NOT touch anything, but you can hold a steady sight picture.

As for accuracy, it is highly dependent on the gun. I am told that decent carry guns can shoot 2" groups at 25 yards from machine rests. I can shoot groups a little over 1" at 25 yars with Sig pistol chambered for the 357 Sig. I can shoot under 1" with the right ammo in a Ruger Mark II .Target Pistol chambered for the .22 LR rimfire cartridge (but that is with a 4x AO scope). Target guns like tuned 1911s can shoot more like 1" groups at 25 yards. Single shot rifle-like pistols can usually shoot about 2" at 100 yards, and often 1" groups at 100 yards. BUT, pocket pistols with tiny grips and short barrels and sighting radii can often shot a lot worse than those 3" gorups you have managed.

I have found that groups can change substantially, in both size and point of impact as the charge weight is changed between min and max loads. I typically don't fool with COL in handguns, except the rifle-like single shots. I am told that some target autoloaders are designed so that the edge of semiwadcutter bullets can be seated against the rifling to headspace the cartridge in the chamber, but I have not done that personally.

SL1

[oneounceload]

SOME guns, so the saying goes, will have that inherent accuracy over others..the HK P7 with its fixed barrel comes to mind, as does the S&W 52 or their 22 version, the 41.......

As I age, I'm not into Bullseye, I am shooting pistols for one of two reasons - plinking fun and SD/HD......If my plinking guns can hit a soda can at whatever range, or I can put my shots in a small COM situation, then that is good enough for me....YMMV

[highvel]

IMHO, handguns do not have to deal with all of the reloading variables that a rifle does. They have minimal barrel time,whip, etc. and to test a handgun load for accuracy you need to remove as many variables as you can, as with a machine rest.

[44 AMP]

Mechanical accuracy refers to the accuracy of the handgun and its ammo, without any human or environmental factors. Use of a machine rest is the usual way of testing this.

If your gun and ammo will group 1", but you can only shoot them to 3", then the mechanical accuracy is 1", while the actual accuracy is only 3", because that the best you can do with it.

Service style autp pistols, using tilt barrel lockup, with the sights on the slide, generally do not have the same degree of mechanical accuracy as fixed barrel guns, or guns with moving barrels where the sights are rigidly mounted on the barrel.

Service type handguns are not built for extreme accuracy, but for servicability, reliability, and enough accuracy to do the job. For many years the basic standard of "accurate" has been a sub 3" group at 25yds. 4-5inch groups are considered adequate, for a combat/defensive pistol.

Remember that group size is the measure of the furthest apart shots. Shoot a 3 in group and any particular shot will only be 1.5" (avg) from your aiming point.

[rtpzwms]

Thank You AMP44 you got it. Remember a glock is NOT a target pistol with out some work. To point this out you don't see adjustable sights on it do you? It is designed to hit a BIG target say 18x24 inches several times. With that in mind hitting a 3" group at 25 feet would be great as long as its the right 3". If you get/have a target pistol it will be much easier to hit a much smaller target. If I were to buy another glock and it shot 3" out of the box I would be happy. I think what you should compare is factory ammo to your reloads and see if you create a better round holding a tighter group than that of the factory ammo.

[jbrown13]

Thanks guys. I have already compared my reloads with factory ammo, and the reloads are definitely more accurate. My purpose was to see if I should continue to search for the "magic load", or is my Glock going to be a limiting factor in improving the accuracy. I think I'm hearing that the Glock is the wrong pistol if one wants "1 ragged hole" accuracy and that 3" groups are probably as good as can be expected, and even 4 and 5 inch groups are adequate. I'm just punching paper and not competing with anybody but myself, but I do want to get the most out of the weapon and reloads that I possibly can. The 3" groups are off sandbags and at my age repeating that offhand will most likely be next to impossible. I can barely see the holes in the target from 30 feet, let alone 25 yards.

[BigJimP]

I think you're on the right track / and it sounds to me like you're getting about the best you can expect out of a Glock model 34 ( not that its bad / it is what it is ) .....

Montana Gold bullets, in my opinion, are very consistent and high quality - so they are not the problem in my opinion. I also use TiteGroup and find it a very good powder, very consistent metering - and I use it in a number of calibers including 9mm, .40S&W and .45 acp ...with very good results.

There are handguns on the market that will guarantee you a 1" group at 25 yards ( Wilson Combat 1911's / Sig X-Five ...) but they are all way above the price point for any of the Glocks - and they will provide a test target with your gun to prove it ....but it means dipping into your check book for the better part of $3,000 or more these days .....

[44 AMP]

I have one that will do 1" (and better) at 25yds, and won't cost you $3K or anywhere even close. Its a handgun, but not an autopistol or revolver.

T/C Contender.'

I've got a 9mm Luger barrel (among others), and I guarantee it will out group any service auto, and give the most expensive target autos a stiff run for the money.

Damn little will touch it for accuracy. Speed of a second shot, however......not so good.

[Sevens]

I love a Contender and the entire concept of it. Alas, I have only two barrels for mine... and one of them ain't much fun. (it's a 10-inch .44 Mag and it is WAY too light and kicks like a mule)

But back to my question: 9mm in a Contender. I never could see the thought process behind that. What was your thought process behind buying it?

Not that there is anything wrong with it... I couldn't see me buying one, but you can bet your hairy butt that if I had one, I'd use it! Just seems right out of left field as a choice for the Contender. I can't even figure out why they made them.

[Jim243]

May I suggest a change in bullet. I get very good results from Remington 124 grain JHP in 9 mm. Your G34 might like them.

Just a suggestion.

Jim

[jbrown13]

Jim 243, I read that same opinion on another forum and do plan to try some 124 JHPs next time I purchase bullets. Thanks.

[snuffy]

I shot this group the last range trip;



It's not a 9mm, but is an auto pistol. A 45 acp SA 1911. I just re-barreled it, so this barrel shows promise. Those are my own cast bullets made with a Lee 6 cavity 200 R-F,(round-flat), nose bullet. They've always shot okay in the old barrel, but this is quite nice. That's @ 25 yds, from a shandbag rest with 2 hand hold. 5.5 grains of WW-231 WW-LP is a nice soft shooting load.

One thing I did do is select all the same headstamp from mixed brass that I loaded on the dillon 650. These happened to be all PMC. I'm going to duplicate that load with match weighed bullets in some new Hornady brass I just got. Just to prove it wasn't a fluke. I did shoot another group right after that one, using mixed brass, a couple of win, one federal, and a couple of rem. The group opened up to over 3 inches.

[TXGunNut]

Gee, somebody brought a T/C Contender to a pistol party Damned things make all other pistols feel inadequate. If mine (.35 Remington, .223) don't shoot under 1" @ 100yds it's on me. OTOH a stock S&W revolver like my 586 will quite often shoot under 2" @ 50 yds with my match ammo.
Glocks are amazing but the carry guns aren't target guns. Sounds like you have a good load, jbrown, now it's all up to you. Can't blame the gun or ammo for poor groups now.

[Esoterix]

I love the comp guns for speed, but when it comes to long range accuracy, I will take my T/C Contender over them any day. Who ever said "you only need a pistol so as to get to your long gun (rifle)" for distance has never shot an IHMSA silhouette match where the rams are at 200 meters!!!

Yeah I have a few barrels for mine and they are ALL Super 14" varity. The 45-70 Gov't shooting 505gr bullets kicks like a Rhino!!! I love it in .223, 30-30, 357 SuperMag, yet the 414 SuperMag and 445 SuperMag starts to kick pretty good.

Damn, My two photos are way to big for the board to upload (it Failed 2.93 MB 3,076,096 bytes - limited was 244.1 KB) I got to buy a cheap Point & Shoot Camera. Does not like my dSLR Canon EOS 20D.

[darkgael]

In the interest of seeing nice firearms

Damn, My two photos are way to big for the board to upload (it Failed 2.93 MB 3,076,096 bytes - limited was 244.1 KB) I got to buy a cheap Point & Shoot Camera. Does not like my dSLR Canon EOS 20D.

You can resize them easily with many free standard photo programs. Picasa is one.
Pete

[Ozzieman]

For your aging eyes, try a pair of glasses that are designed to focus YOUR eyes at the distance of your front sight.

That is VERY good advice, having the same problem (not age but sight) problem I went to my optomologest and asked her what I could do.
What she suggested was that I bring in a gun or just the slide of the gun (yes she shocked the heck out of me).
What I did was to bring in a toy gun with sights and she had me sight the gun at the wall behind her and she marked the spot on the glasses where I was aligning the sights.
The reason for this is that most glasses are ground so that the “sweet spot” is with you standing straight up and looking straight ahead.
Most people and myself included tend to look through our glasses (if you’re right handed) through the upper left side of the lens for your strong eye. This is even worse if you wear bi or tri focal lenses.
What she did for me was to build a lens that was ground with a larger sweet spot at the location where I hold the sights.
Best $200 I ever spent.
My suggestion is if you’re having problems with your eyesight, talk to your doctor and tell them WHAT your problem is.

[MO. Shootin]

ozzieman thats one of the best tips ever for us 4 eyed fellas.

[oneounceload]

I have one that will do 1" (and better) at 25yds, and won't cost you $3K or anywhere even close. Its a handgun, but not an autopistol or revolver.

T/C Contender.'

Heck, I have an XP that will outshoot that at 100 yards but most folks do not consider a bolt action pistol in the same vein.........

[noylj]

Just my opinion and ymmv:
The problems with the Glock are a rather oversized chamber (for reliability they say) and mushy recoil (plastic has more "spring" then steel). In fact, I am amazed that they are as accurate as they are, especially with the triggers they have.
That being said, a service-type pistol is doing well to group 3" at 25 yards. A service-type target pistol should do 1.5" or less at 25 yards. A pure target pistol should do 1" or less at 25 yards. A TC should be able to do less than 3" at 100 yards and most will do much better with proper loads (sub MOA is not uncommon and I have out-shot several Ruger #1s).
The main reloader variables for accuracy in service-type pistols is quality of bullet, quality of bullet seating and crimping (no bullet damage or swaging down in size), length of case (closer to max length without exceeding will generally be more accurate), and seating primers just under the case's base. I have never seen any effect of sorting by headstamp and benchrest techniques (working on the flash hole and primer pocket) also have shown no effect. Also, super shiny brass and cleaning off all sizing lube have never shown any effect. I think there is a large difference between the percentage increase in breech forces (back thrust) that a lubed rifle case would produce and a short little straight-wall pistol case.
In short, pistol accuracy is based on barrel and chamber dimensions, bullet quality and bullet weight and size matched to the barrel, powder type and charge, case length, and primer used (not so much brand but type--i.e., don't use magnum when standard will do). Pistols are so far from benchrest rifles that only a few variables can have any effect--and I can say that in my 30+ years of reloading, I have never seen any effect from sorting or not sorting by headstamp, just case length and even that is minor compared to barrel, bullet, and powder.

[WESHOOT2]

Switch to the 130g .356" Montana Gold.
Switch to sorted cases.
Switch to CCI500.
Switch to OAL 1.148".
Switch to 5.3g Silhouette or 3N37 or Power Pistol.

Might gain another inch or more off......

[roy reali]

Why twenty five yards for SD/HD accuracy? Don't most defensive shooting situations occur at much closer ranges? In my home, a 25 yard shot would be impossible. Twenty five feet would be more likely. Also, wouldn't a twenty five yard shot on a BG raise eyebrows at the DA's office?

I test my SD handguns at 25 feet. Isn't that good enough or should I extend the test distance?

[noylj]

Roy: There is no magic about 25 yards, just a good reasonable handgun range.
If all you ever want is to practice for SD/HD and you are getting the results you want, then you should be happy. The important thing is to have fun.
The main thing is to be familiar with your gun and how they work for you.
I like to know what kind of accuracy I can get out of my guns and 25 yard testing is good enough for me. If you are into Bullseye shooting, then 50 yard accuracy is the critical number.
The frightening thing to me is when I see someone shooting, almost always very fast, and getting shotgun patterns at 10 yards or less (in fact, my shotguns can get tighter patterns than that at 10 yards).

[snuffy]

Why twenty five yards for SD/HD accuracy? Don't most defensive shooting situations occur at much closer ranges? In my home, a 25 yard shot would be impossible. Twenty five feet would be more likely. Also, wouldn't a twenty five yard shot on a BG raise eyebrows at the DA's office?

I test my SD handguns at 25 feet. Isn't that good enough or should I extend the test distance?

Roy, I test @ 25 yds, because that's the closest target that has a bench to shoot from outside. I do have a 50 foot indoor range to use, but no bench. Shooting from any unsupported position does not mean a thing. A good stack of sandbags and a good firm grip are what I want to be able to really see what the gun and load will do.

Of course, self defense situations are always closer than 25 yds. But you don't really know what the ammo is capable of until you stretch it out there a bit.