problem with new 223 load

[mdd]

Upon the advice of several here, I have "recooked" my 223 load....or at least I'm trying to do so. I used once fired brass, accurate arms 2230, cci primers, and 60 gr vmax bullets. Starting with 23.8 grains of powder, I worked my way up to 24.6 grains in increments of 0.2 grains. The cases were all sized and trimmed and the final OAL is 2.275". They chamber in my rifle with no issue whatsoever. The problem is this: on even the lightest load, my firing pin is punching through the primer. At 24.2 grains, slight primer deformity is visible and the primer is flattened significantly on 24.6 grains. I understand why the primers flatten. Explain to me though why my pin is punching through the primer on every round.

[Sport45]

Which CCI primers are you using?

[mehavey]

`Am on TDY so don't have QuickLoad available, but that sounds like an awfully hot loading.

AA's own loading data for 60-62gr bullets and 2230 MAXes out at 23.5 and 22.8gr respectvely.

2230 60 NOS PART
Min
21.2 2,663 fps
Max
23.5 3,025 (49,900 psi)

2230 62 BRG HP
Min
20.4 2,623
Max
22.8 2,982 (54,950 psi)

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/A...%20version.pdf

YMMV somewhat w/ bullet shape/seating depth, but the rifle's talking to you bigtime.

[Sport45]

Mehavey is right. Your load is above published specs.

Explain to me though why my pin is punching through the primer on every round.

Now it will perforate many primers because you've probably cratered the end of the FP by gas cutting. Inspect the firing pin and replace it if the end isn't properly rounded. Hopefully, you haven't cut the bolt face.

[Incognito]

I've been shooting 55gr. FMJ with 24gr. of AA2230, and even at 25gr. the primers did not show pressure signs, and that involved once fired LC, Winchester, and FC brass.

You have a bolt or gas gun?

[oldcspsarge]

Clean your barrel with powder solvent until clean and then use a copper solvent to get the copper out. I suspect you have quite a copper build up.

I would back the loads down to AA specs as well.

[Irish80prf]

If you ever want to try out a new powder for those bullets I've been loading them over H4895 and had some really good results. Starting load 24.0 grains and max 26.0 grains compressed. I load 25.2 grains with CCI small rifle primers.

[mdd]

The reason why I ran these loads is, like I said, based off the successes of another member here. He specifically recommended 24.4 grains 2230 behind 60 gr vmax bullets. My own fault for not properly researching this recipe before loading. I shot one of each powder charge so five shots in all. If my pin and/or bolt face are damaged i'll deal with it.
Irish, I will keep that in mind but I just bought a pound of the 2230 and would like to give it an honest shot. The problem I was trying to address is this gun's penchant for inaccuracy at 200 yds with my old load despite nice groups at 100.
Oldsarge, my guns are meticulously maintained so I'm doubtful copper fouling is an issue unless its a result of these last five different rounds. I am interested though in the reasoning which points you toward copper fouling. Care to explain?
Mehavey, thank you for taking the time to post that information. Looks like I get to pull some bullets and start reweighing powder. I'll send a few of my old rounds through the rifle to see how the pin behaves. If its broken i'll fix it. I appreciate all of your responses.

[steve4102]

Lyman 48
223 Rem
60gr V-Max
AA 2230 Start-22.0gr
Max-24.5gr 51800psi

Quickload.
+00.0 99 24.60 3016 1212 56694 8256 96.4 0.914 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Have you checked how far your 2.275 OAL is off the lands? Could be your too long.

[Longdayjake]

I use the exact same bullet with the exact same charge from my ruger m77. 24.6 grains of 2230. I have been getting excellent results with them. That said, you may want to check to make sure you aren't seating them too long. Since you are trying several loads and your lightest loads are creating the same problem my guess is the pressures are coming from something else.

[HiBC]

You might retrace your steps and see if maybe you inadvertantly grabbed small pistol primers.(Someone I was loading with did this,and I noticed the pierced primers in the first few rounds and stopped)Don't forget these little discs of primer may be inside your bolt.They could jam your firing pin forward.
That would be bad

[mdd]

Took this rifle out yesterday and shot ten of my old 55 grain loads through it. Everything operated as it was supposed to with no perforating of primers. I'll double check the primers used in the new groups but I'm positive they are small rifle.
How do I determine how far off the lands these are sitting?

[steve4102]

How do I determine how far off the lands these are sitting?

Several ways, but I use this.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=479963

One way to see if you are to long is to just seat them deeper. Lyman 48 used 2.260 and Hornady used 2.250 for their data testing.

[mehavey]

Upon return from TDY I went back to run the QuickLoad figures. As with all black boxes, results depend on inputs.

I'm using both Winchester and Lapua brass, so the case volume used is 31.3gr H2O. My OAL is that of magazine length -- 2.26 inches. With those provisions, and using HNDY 60gr V-Max I get entirely reasonable pressures with AA2230 ranging from 23.8gr - 24.6gr

Surprised me.

Something else is afoot here for you to be getting the pressure signs you mention.

- What brass/case volume are you using? (though I doubt that's the problem)
- Are you sure of the primer (rifle vs pistol as postulated above)
- Can you get access to a chronograph (velocities normal/outta line)?
- Are you sure of the powder ? (AA distributer heard of other anomolies?)
- Back the bullet off to "standard" 2.26 inches OAL.

Of all the ideas above, go back to a nice 21.5-ish loadout recommended by the AA manufacturer, with a magazine-length cartridge -- and a chronograph

[Irish80prf]

I agree the first thing I would so is seat a couple bullets a touch deeper and go shoot them. See if you are still getting pressure signs. I seat my bullets at 2.250" with the 60 grain V-Max. I guess if you are at the max powder level seating the bullet deeper might cause more issues though. I don't know if .025" would make much difference or not.

[Longdayjake]

I guess if you are at the max powder level seating the bullet deeper might cause more issues though.

24.6 grains is not a compressed load or even any where near that as far as I can tell. If you shake it you can easily tell that there is empty space left over for seating it deeper. You shouldn't have an issue seating them any deeper.

[Sport45]

It's fine if you work up a load that is above published maximum charge weights in your rifle for use in your rifle. But please, if you know the load is over published maximum you should put a warning in the post as required by our forum rules. Please refer to the sticky at the top of the page.

24.6gr of AA2230 is above Accurate's published maximum charge weight for a 60gr bullet.

[Unclenick]

Mdd,

Case capacity is critical to pressure and if varies from gun to gun even with the same brand because, at rifle pressures, it is the capacity the case expands to in the chamber that determines pressure, and not what it is as sized or new. So, your loads may or may not be reasonable in your gun? Please find an average weight fired case with the spent (and un-pierced) primer still in it. One of your 55 grain loads will be fine if they are the same cases. Weigh it empty, then fill it with water level with the mouth (no meniscus) and weigh it again. The difference in these two weights is the case water capacity in grains as fired in your particular chamber. Please let us know what it is?

Primer piercing has several possible causes. Can you post a close-up photo? Commonly it is not an actual piercing, but rather the primer cup has flowed back into the firing pin tunnel enough to blow out or has cratered enough to have a sharp enough bend to pierce. You can check not only the firing pin but the that there isn't excess space around the tunnel.

Also, basics: what rifle? What barrel length and twist?

[A_Gamehog]

FYI

26 grains of AA2230 with the 60 grain V-Max pierces my primers. Not everyone but i stopped after one.

[mdd]

Sorry to have let this thread sit idle so long. My uncle and I, along with our hired hands, operate several thousand acres here in central ks. We finished our wheat harvest recently and harvested enough grain to produce roughly 30,000,000 loaves of bread for you guys.
Enough of that. Back to my 223. I pulled my bullets and backed my powder charge down to 22.0 grains to eliminate the primer piercing. I then adjusted my OAL to 2.250 as part of eliminating the primer piercing. I've ordered the gauge someone suggested above but don't have it yet to accurately set my OAL for this gun. I'm still working at this & have at least eliminated the primer piercing.
Sport45, I don't know if your comment was directed at me but I was in no way advocating these loads. I would like to think the tone of this thread would indicate that but if not I apologize. I did not mean to step outside of the rules of the board.
I took out five of these 60 gr vmax's with 22 gr of the aa2230. Shot at 200 yards off a sled and still am not happy with the spread but wasn't expecting to be just yet. I'm happy to have eliminated one problem though and will keep this thread updated.
Thanks,
Michael

[Unclenick]

Michael,

If you'd like some help separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, have a read through Dan Newberry's site. The round robin method he describes is an efficient way to find a best load for a bullet. I think you'll find other things there interesting as well.