Varget or WIN. 748 for 69gr. Sierra

Bamashooter · March 30, 2010, 03:40 PM

i recently decided to load some 69gr. sierra for my ruger and didnt really like the powder i was using to load lighter bullets. ( IMR-4895) So i did some research and its down to these choices. I dont know alot about these 2 powders so, any input would be appreciated.

TXJohn · March 30, 2010, 04:25 PM

What cal. are you reloading?

Brian10 · March 30, 2010, 04:54 PM

69 grains, so I assume that's 223.

NuJudge · March 30, 2010, 05:05 PM

I've gotten IMR4895 to work exceedingly well with 69s.

I have gotten 748 to work extremely well with 52 gr bullets. An AR that won't shoot well with 52s and 26.5gr 748 and a CCI primer won't shoot well with anything.

Bamashooter · March 30, 2010, 05:53 PM

yes, 223. i use IMR-4895 on almost everything i reload, but the muzzle velosity with 69gr. bullets according to my manual is only 2700fps. i was looking for a little more velosity, so ive narrowed it down to 748 amd varget. max loads with those two is closer to 3000fps.

**Unclenick** · March 30, 2010, 06:06 PM

You're misinformed. That happens easily in this instance because lots of .223 data is from 20" AR barrels rather than the 24" standard test barrels. Compared to the 24" barrel, a 20" barrel loses about 120 fps with those powders.

From Hodgdon's web site, using the same gun (24"), brass (Winchester), and primers (WInchester WSR), maximum loads in descending order of velocity produced:

H4895: 3069 fps
Varget: 3010 fps
IMR 4895: 2953 fps
748: 2870 fps

Lots of folks report great accuracy with Varget, but as with any individual gun, YMMV.

Bamashooter · March 30, 2010, 06:32 PM

the data im using is from the new sierra manual. according to it a max powder charge of IMR-4895 is 2700fps. from a 16'' test barrel. thats why i wanted to try another powder. btw my barrel is 18.5 inches.

L Puckett · March 30, 2010, 08:15 PM

I've had good luck with both Varget and 4895 with 69 SMK's. Both reaching 3050 fps in a custom 20" tubed AR while staying below max by a bit.

Check a few load maps and get a feel for max loads, then work your way up watching for pressure, looking for your best groups.

Never worked with 748, so can't speak to it's performance.

LP

**Unclenick** · March 30, 2010, 08:19 PM

My Sierra manual's AR15 section is for a 20" barrel with 7" twist. It has that same low 2700 fps velocity for IMR-4895. An 18.5" barrel will lose about 50 fps off that, depending on the powder.

I looked at four different data sources (Hodgdon, Lyman, Sierra, Nosler (with their own 69 grain BT match bullet), and Speer). Only the Sierra manual tops out IMR-4895 at that low 2700 fps velocity. Only the Hodgdon data gives 748 the lowest velocity among the powders discussed. The Nosler manual gives 748 the highest velocity among those powders, as does Speer (using a Speer 70 grain bullet), and Speer runs it and IMR 4895 about 100 fps faster than anyone else runs them with 69 grain bullets and a 22" barrel. I also used QuickLOAD as another information source I looked at. It also put 748 on top, but had both H and IMR 4895 so close behind, it doesn't matter (within 25 fps at 55,000 psi). It also ran Varget way behind the others, though.

I think the disagreements here are mainly just the result of differences in the lot numbers of the powders tested and the primers used. That means you could buy a pound of each of these powders and which one will produce the most velocity in your gun will be a toss up. All you can do is try them.

Bamashooter · March 30, 2010, 08:32 PM

thanks for the info gentlemen. you have been helpful.

L Puckett · March 30, 2010, 09:11 PM

Bamashooter,

I apologize for my "short answer" and to UncleNick if I caused any confusion regarding "can it reach the speed".....the wife was bugging me to eat before it got cold.

The best approach is don't get to wrapped up in speed numbers, pick a couple of powders that produce good speed at lower pressure. What you want is accuracy. If you achieve a real nice group at the low end of the load map, you may want to go on up to see if you can hit a good accuracy node nearer the high end, with the understanding that a price is paid for high speed/pressures in wear and tear on your weapon and brass.

One other item that can be a large variable is the barrel itself. The loads I stated above run 180 ft/sec slower in a factory 16 inch that I have. The 20 tube is a hand lapped Krieger that was chambered by a real master, and it runs very fast.

To clarify,
LP

GeauxTide · March 30, 2010, 09:41 PM

Out of my 24" M788, I get 3260 with 55s under 25.5gr of H-4895. I haven't tried another powder because it shoots in tenths of an inch.

CherokeeT · March 31, 2010, 09:15 AM

Just to mix it up some, I use H380 and 69 Sierra for sub-MOA shooting in my 16 & 24" AR's.

A_Gamehog · March 31, 2010, 10:39 PM

Try 23.0 grains of Varget and CCI450's loaded long. If accuracy is your goal.

Bamashooter · April 1, 2010, 01:26 AM

yes! accuracy is my main goal.

A_Gamehog · April 1, 2010, 08:55 AM

One thing to remember, if you choose the W748 be prepared to make some adjustments from not having a temp insensitive powder. The choice of varget over W748 to me is very simple, which one is more stable in hot or cold seasons and the point of impact does not change. When you see guys at the long range matches with their ammo in an ice chest it makes you think. What shoots well in 50 degree weather in January does not shoot well in 95 degree summer without some changes. Don't ask me how I know as that's a sore subject.

Tim R · April 1, 2010, 04:01 PM

I would give 24.8 grs of Reloder 15 a try with the 69 gr. SMK. Work it up of course. Works good in my 2 match AR's.

gunrunner1 · April 3, 2010, 09:53 AM

24.8 grains of W748 gave me 2,850 fps second out of my RRA 24-inch barreled varmint rifle with the Sierra 69 grain matchking bullet. The temperature was 90 degrees. The same load gave me 2,730 out of a RRA 20-inch barreled national match A2 at the same temperature.

I also shot this load in a Savage 10FP with a 24-inch barrel and got 2,719 fps at a temperature of 93 degrees and 2,697 fps out of a Bushmaster A2 with a 20-inch chrome lined barrel.

March 30, 2010, 03:40 PM	#1
Bamashooter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2010 Posts: 1,860	Varget or WIN. 748 for 69gr. Sierra i recently decided to load some 69gr. sierra for my ruger and didnt really like the powder i was using to load lighter bullets. ( IMR-4895) So i did some research and its down to these choices. I dont know alot about these 2 powders so, any input would be appreciated.

March 30, 2010, 05:05 PM	#4
NuJudge Member Join Date: October 17, 2005 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 86	I could never get Varget or 748 to work with 69s in .223 I've gotten IMR4895 to work exceedingly well with 69s. I have gotten 748 to work extremely well with 52 gr bullets. An AR that won't shoot well with 52s and 26.5gr 748 and a CCI primer won't shoot well with anything.

March 30, 2010, 06:06 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,727	You're misinformed. That happens easily in this instance because lots of .223 data is from 20" AR barrels rather than the 24" standard test barrels. Compared to the 24" barrel, a 20" barrel loses about 120 fps with those powders. From Hodgdon's web site, using the same gun (24"), brass (Winchester), and primers (WInchester WSR), maximum loads in descending order of velocity produced: H4895: 3069 fps Varget: 3010 fps IMR 4895: 2953 fps 748: 2870 fps Lots of folks report great accuracy with Varget, but as with any individual gun, YMMV. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; March 30, 2010 at 06:20 PM.

March 30, 2010, 08:19 PM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,727	My Sierra manual's AR15 section is for a 20" barrel with 7" twist. It has that same low 2700 fps velocity for IMR-4895. An 18.5" barrel will lose about 50 fps off that, depending on the powder. I looked at four different data sources (Hodgdon, Lyman, Sierra, Nosler (with their own 69 grain BT match bullet), and Speer). Only the Sierra manual tops out IMR-4895 at that low 2700 fps velocity. Only the Hodgdon data gives 748 the lowest velocity among the powders discussed. The Nosler manual gives 748 the highest velocity among those powders, as does Speer (using a Speer 70 grain bullet), and Speer runs it and IMR 4895 about 100 fps faster than anyone else runs them with 69 grain bullets and a 22" barrel. I also used QuickLOAD as another information source I looked at. It also put 748 on top, but had both H and IMR 4895 so close behind, it doesn't matter (within 25 fps at 55,000 psi). It also ran Varget way behind the others, though. I think the disagreements here are mainly just the result of differences in the lot numbers of the powders tested and the primers used. That means you could buy a pound of each of these powders and which one will produce the most velocity in your gun will be a toss up. All you can do is try them. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 31, 2010, 10:39 PM	#14
A_Gamehog Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2009 Location: Central Oregun Posts: 563	Speed or Accuracy? Try 23.0 grains of Varget and CCI450's loaded long. If accuracy is your goal.

March 30, 2010, 04:25 PM	#2
TXJohn Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Location: Ft Worth TX Posts: 163	What cal. are you reloading?

March 30, 2010, 04:54 PM	#3
Brian10 Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Posts: 25	69 grains, so I assume that's 223.

March 30, 2010, 05:53 PM	#5
Bamashooter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2010 Posts: 1,860	yes, 223. i use IMR-4895 on almost everything i reload, but the muzzle velosity with 69gr. bullets according to my manual is only 2700fps. i was looking for a little more velosity, so ive narrowed it down to 748 amd varget. max loads with those two is closer to 3000fps.

March 30, 2010, 06:32 PM	#7
Bamashooter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2010 Posts: 1,860	the data im using is from the new sierra manual. according to it a max powder charge of IMR-4895 is 2700fps. from a 16'' test barrel. thats why i wanted to try another powder. btw my barrel is 18.5 inches.

March 30, 2010, 08:15 PM	#8
L Puckett Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2002 Location: Mid-Tennessee Posts: 150	I've had good luck with both Varget and 4895 with 69 SMK's. Both reaching 3050 fps in a custom 20" tubed AR while staying below max by a bit. Check a few load maps and get a feel for max loads, then work your way up watching for pressure, looking for your best groups. Never worked with 748, so can't speak to it's performance. LP

March 30, 2010, 08:32 PM	#10
Bamashooter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2010 Posts: 1,860	thanks for the info gentlemen. you have been helpful.

March 30, 2010, 09:11 PM	#11
L Puckett Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2002 Location: Mid-Tennessee Posts: 150	Bamashooter, I apologize for my "short answer" and to UncleNick if I caused any confusion regarding "can it reach the speed".....the wife was bugging me to eat before it got cold. The best approach is don't get to wrapped up in speed numbers, pick a couple of powders that produce good speed at lower pressure. What you want is accuracy. If you achieve a real nice group at the low end of the load map, you may want to go on up to see if you can hit a good accuracy node nearer the high end, with the understanding that a price is paid for high speed/pressures in wear and tear on your weapon and brass. One other item that can be a large variable is the barrel itself. The loads I stated above run 180 ft/sec slower in a factory 16 inch that I have. The 20 tube is a hand lapped Krieger that was chambered by a real master, and it runs very fast. To clarify, LP

March 30, 2010, 09:41 PM	#12
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,514	Out of my 24" M788, I get 3260 with 55s under 25.5gr of H-4895. I haven't tried another powder because it shoots in tenths of an inch.

March 31, 2010, 09:15 AM	#13
CherokeeT Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2008 Location: Medina, Ohio Posts: 273	Just to mix it up some, I use H380 and 69 Sierra for sub-MOA shooting in my 16 & 24" AR's.

April 1, 2010, 01:26 AM	#15
Bamashooter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2010 Posts: 1,860	yes! accuracy is my main goal.

April 1, 2010, 08:55 AM	#16
A_Gamehog Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2009 Location: Central Oregun Posts: 563	One thing to remember, if you choose the W748 be prepared to make some adjustments from not having a temp insensitive powder. The choice of varget over W748 to me is very simple, which one is more stable in hot or cold seasons and the point of impact does not change. When you see guys at the long range matches with their ammo in an ice chest it makes you think. What shoots well in 50 degree weather in January does not shoot well in 95 degree summer without some changes. Don't ask me how I know as that's a sore subject. Last edited by A_Gamehog; April 1, 2010 at 09:02 AM.

April 1, 2010, 04:01 PM	#17
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	I would give 24.8 grs of Reloder 15 a try with the 69 gr. SMK. Work it up of course. Works good in my 2 match AR's.

April 3, 2010, 09:53 AM	#18
gunrunner1 Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 111	24.8 grains of W748 gave me 2,850 fps second out of my RRA 24-inch barreled varmint rifle with the Sierra 69 grain matchking bullet. The temperature was 90 degrees. The same load gave me 2,730 out of a RRA 20-inch barreled national match A2 at the same temperature. I also shot this load in a Savage 10FP with a 24-inch barrel and got 2,719 fps at a temperature of 93 degrees and 2,697 fps out of a Bushmaster A2 with a 20-inch chrome lined barrel.