New to reloading

CowboyBob · January 3, 2010, 08:21 PM

Hey all, I'm new to reloading and have a couple of simple questions you guys can probably help with. I purchased a Lee hand press and carbide 44 magnum dies, as this is the only round I have interest in reloading for. I now have all necessary components (and have read and reread my reloading manuals).

Before I actually get down to business of reloading, the plan is to practice loading a couple of shells with a already used primer and no powder just to master the operation of my equipment.

My question is this: when I crimped the the shell, the crimp didn't appear uniform all the way around, i.e. the angle of the crimp was (slightly) steeper on one side than the other. Is this ok, or is it a problem? I have a Lee three die carbide set, the crimp is integral with the bullet seater. I think Lee sells a separate crimping die, should I go ahead and invest in this?

One more question: I don't have a tumbler, and don't particularly want to purchase one. Are there alternatives to cleaning brass? I saw some sort of liquid cleaner on Cabelas. There must have been some sort of method before tumblers came along.

Final question: Will I ever need a case trimmer? None of my once fired brass has stretched beyond fitting in my Lyman case gauge, so I have no need to trim now. After brass has been used multiple times, will it stretch more?

Thanks guys, sorry for the long post.

mrawesome22 · January 3, 2010, 08:31 PM

I would crimp in a separate step. And yes you will need a trimmer. If you trim all your brass square and to the same length, only then will your crimp be uniform. I have heard of people cleaning brass in a clothes washer but I only have experience with a tumbler.

oneounceload · January 3, 2010, 08:41 PM

You can clean brass in a bucket of warm, soapy water - just make sure they are completely dry before reloading. Don't use momma's washer or dishwasher - you don't need that residue on clothes or dishes.

While trimming is nice, I have never trimmed any of my 38 or 357 brass - ever - and I have never had any issues with crimps - YMMV

I use RCBS dies and seat and crimp with the one die - once set up, you should be fine.

I would load your practice round without primers in them - that way you know those are reloading practice and not duds.

SwampYankee · January 3, 2010, 09:21 PM

I always crimp in a separate step. It makes much more uniform ammunition. It can be done in the same step but I have never mastered the technique with my RCBS dies. Someday I may work it out but it's easy enough for me to do in separate steps.

I do not think you need to trim cases with .44 Magnum. I have never trimmed cases with .45 Colt, .357 Magnum or .38 Special. Rifle cases are a different story and you will eventually need to trim those, not usually pistol cases.

I cannot imagine cleaning brass in anything but a tumbler. Walnut shell and a little brass polish and everything is clean within a couple hours. Very little mess, no hassle.

Invest in a bullet puller while you are at it. You can salvage anything you screw up that way. $11 from Midway.

Lost Sheep · January 3, 2010, 09:34 PM

Cowboybob,

Welcome to the world of reloading.

My experience has been different from mrawesome22's.

So you know where how opinions were formed, my experience has been all with straight-walled pistol cases, 9mm, 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum, 45 Colt and 454 Casull. Most of my 357s have never even seen a 38 special and I have never even owned a 44 special cartridge. I just load the larger cases to whatever power level I want, usually not very high. High power loads are usually factory loads which give me my supply of brass.

I loaded for nearly 40 years without a brass cleaner of any kind. I just wipe any foreign material off the shells with soft cloth and go for it. My brass was dull, even ugly, but has always worked fine. Last year, a shooting buddy gave me a Christmas present of a tumbler. I guess he was embarrassed for me. My brass looks brighter, but shoots no better.

I have never trimmed a single cartridge case ever. I also don't shoot a lot of very heavy loads. I throw away brass with cracked case mouths and would probably throw away any 45 ACP or 9mm that got too long to headspace correctly.

About the crimp question. If your cartridge case centered in the die as you work the handle, it will tilt, or even be bent. That might account for an uneven case mouth and crimp. Not likely, though.

If your brass is not square (the same length all the way around its circumference), a uniform crimp will be impossible. Trim the brass or toss it. This is also not likely.

Here's what I think is most likely. I assume you are loading lead bullets, not jacketed. If your die is not correctly adjusted, the bullet will still be being seated deeper in the case after the crimp has has started being made. The crimp will cut into the side of the lead bullet and will appear as if the crimp is not uniform because the brass is buried. I have done this, and that's what it looks like. Readjust the die properly and the problem will go away, if that's what it was.

You could back the die out and advance the seating post by the same amount, but it would probably be better to just back everything out and start over.

How I adjust my Seating/Crimping dies:

1) Pull the seating post all the way out.

2) Set the die height for a proper crimp (use a perfect round as a guide; buy a box of factory loads if you have to). Run the ram all the way up and double check it during the process.

3) Back the die out so it does not apply any crimp at all to a freshly belled case run all the way up on the ram. (Remember how much rotation it took).

4) Lock the die in place.

5) Put the bullet seating post in place in the die, but not screwed in very far.

6) Put a bullet in the mouth of a belled cartridge case and put the case in the press in the press and run it up into the die (all the way up).

7) Screw the bullet seating post down until it contacts the bullet nose.

8) Extract the cartridge from the die and observe the depth to which the bullet has been pushed into the case.

9) Screw in the bullet seating post a little.

10) Run the cartridge all the way up into the die and pull it back out.

11) Extract the cartridge from the die and observe the depth to which the bullet has been pushed into the case.

12) Repeat (steps 8 to 11) until the bullet is almost, but not quite to the right depth. The case mouth should be right at the bottom of the crimping groove.

13) Lock the seating post where it is.

14) Unlock the die and screw it in the same amount of rotation you backed out before. (Step 3)

15) Lock the die in place.

16) Run the cartridge all the way up into the die. That will finish seating the bullet and apply the crimp.

You should have a perfectly formed, dimensionally correct cartridge which you can use as a model for all your future setups. If you left out powder and primer, you have a "Dummy Round" to use as a reference for future reloading.

17) If the cartridge is not perfectly formed and dimensionally correct, do it over again, but since your judgment will be informed by this "failure" your next attempt will likely be right on.

If your batch of brass has different length cases, either sort them by length into different batches and adjust the die for each different batch or trim them all to the same length. As I said before, I have never needed to trim my brass, so you can correctly infer I have not had bunches brass stretched to different lengths. If I had brass of different lengths, I would have bought a case trimmer years ago and uniformed them all up.

I hope this helps.

Lost Sheep.

Long post? It was very succinct. Look at mine.

NCMountain · January 4, 2010, 09:21 AM

I will keep it short here. First congrats on reading and re-reading the manual, something alot of folks don't do. Simplicity of one caliber does make it easier to begin. Uneven crimp.....hmmmmm? Makes me think you may need to measure your brass for one, to see if it is stretched depending on what if any hot loads you shoot that will stretch the case.

I find a trimmer an essential piece of equipment and like the Lee trimmer, they only cost several dollars so it is not like these will break the bank.

Are you reloading factory shot ammo for the 1st time or what?????

Tumbling.......I don't see how anyone does without one but I am a complete package person when it comes to reloading. May as well have all the goodies. But you can use a very very mild steel wool to rub the outer case to clean it but your still in need to do some minor cleaning in the case itself. That is where a tumbler assist alot. That will be something for you to evaluate later if other methods become too time engaging.

Good luck and sure you will get tons of information.

oldNewbie · January 4, 2010, 08:51 PM

I'm new to reloading too, just got my setup (Lee 50th anniversary kit). For bullet seating I followed the directions that came with the Lee .38 special carbide dies (a similar process as Lost Sheep described) and after three attempts, I had the bullet seating and crimp dialed in with (what I think is) a perfect crimp just below the top of the cannelure. (Please correct me if that's wrong!) I'm using Suter's Choice 158-gr. hard-cast semi-wadcutters and once- or twice-fired factory brass. I fired my first reloads this past Saturday, and they worked perfectly.

Based on the cost of buying ammo at the range or elsewhere, the reloading equipment and supplies will have paid for themselves after 2 or 3 more trips to the range. Plus, it's quite enjoyable as a hobby!

I read the ABC's of Reloading and the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (7th edition) before I got started, and I had a pretty good idea what to expect. I'd enjoy any suggestions for other reading material.

I'm particularly interested in the case-cleaning aspect because I didn't buy a tumbler at the time, but it's looking more and more necessary after hand-wiping 150 cases with gun cleaning patches dampened with Hoppe's #9 and then wiping off the solvent with a soft cloth.

Does a tumbler clean the inside of the cases as well as the outside? Is there any problem with getting media out of the cases afterward (do they need to be blown out with compressed air, tapped on the bench, etc.)? Does the tumbler clean the primer pocket as well?

tag2501 · January 4, 2010, 10:34 PM

regarding trimming:
once-shot factory brass wont (usually need it)
new brass should be measured and trimmed to length (usually only need to do once for pistol brass. most makers have a few long, a few short and most to correct length in a given lot

as far as case cleaning, its partly aesthetics, and partly making the cases clean enough to handle without black on everything. I think tumbling is pretty much hands-off (easy) so it's the preferred method, and cleans the cases inside and out. Some debate out there about de-priming before cleaning (maybe depends on the media and the brass size - for some combinations of brass and media the media gets stuck in the primer flash hole). Its not worth tumbling cases for hours and hours to replicate a new brass finish

one thing I'd strongly recommend doing on new and several-times-fired brass is using a tool to uniform size the primer pocket so all of the primers seat to the same depth (and deep enough to maintain easy cycling of the handgun, especially revolvers). dirty primer pockets can raise the primer seating depth enough to cause a handgun cylinder to hang up on the extended primer. in a semi auto rifle it can cause slamfires (not fun) as the firing pin rides forward a bit as the bolt closes.

NCMountain · January 5, 2010, 09:46 AM

Tag is right about the tumbler. Plus I tumble for maybe 2 hours and that is good enough for me. The exterior of the brass is like new and the interior is fairly clean too.

USMC Vet · January 6, 2010, 12:24 AM

In perusing through the responses to CowBoy Bob's thread on reloading for a noobie, I was amazed to see the number of folks who stated that they never trim their pistol brass - some even seemed to be proud of that fact. Shame, shame! Why do you think they make case trimmers? CowBoy Bob, do not listen to these arm chair experts! Buy yourself a dial caliper and use it. When your cases reach the upper limit, and reach the "trim to'' length as specified in you loading manual, trim them back to proper length. Most cases stretch with every firing, and eventually must be trimmed back. Pay far more attention to what is in your loading manual, than what you see on the internet

USMC Vet

dmazur · January 6, 2010, 12:58 AM

Pistol brass generally doesn't stretch on resizing like bottleneck cartridges do.

For reloading .45 ACP, I've checked brass and found only a few out of several hundred that needed trimming. Probably manufacturing tolerances more than anything. IMO, .45 ACP doesn't need constant trimming, but since it is supposed to headspace on the case mouth, it is a good idea to do a case length check with calipers or a gauge initially.

For reloading .44 Mag, I've found that if I didn't remove manufacturer's variations by trimming to a consistent length, I couldn't get a consistent roll crimp. Again, after this initial trimming, I haven't found a need to trim the cases again.

Now .243 Win and .30-06 Sprg are entirely different! Resizing does cause the case length to stretch, unless you're using RCBS X-dies. If you don't keep the length below max, you can crimp the case mouth in the lands on chambering and cause a dangerous pressure rise. Some reloaders trim quite a bit below the recommended case trim length and can get 10 or more reloadings before they have to trim again. Neck tension is reduced a little, but perhaps this isn't significant as long as it's uniform.

I believe there are more nuances to reloading than most of us are ever going to understand. Kind of keeps it interesting. I also believe that if a person understands the process, he will probably stay out of trouble. Keep studying!

Lost Sheep · January 6, 2010, 04:04 AM

CowboyBob,

About case trimming and calipers, I thought I would clarify my opinion and the experience that informed it.

It is good to know that the dimensions of your bullets and cartridges are within SAAMI specifications. (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute). It is not absolutely necessary to have a micrometer or calipers to do that. For example, you can use the chamber of a semiautomatic pistol to verify the length (for headspace) of your cartridges. Your Lyman case length gauge you mentioned is a viable subtitute for a caliper (there are also ones that have slots for measuring multiple cartridges, too). If I were to make a choice between not having a scale or not having a micrometer or calipers, I would have the scale.

On the other hand, if I had a a few hundred bullets that, for any reason, I suspected might not be the correct diameter for my barrel, I would never fire them without checking them first.

My experience is all with straight-walled handgun ammunition, revolvers and semi-autos, but I know a bit about rifle cartridges, too. I buy factory ammunition to get almost all my brass for reloading. My reloads are on the mild side. So my brass is not heavily stressed, stretched or worked. Many of my .357 Magnum cartridges have far in excess of 15 load/fire cycles. That would be a lot for a bottlenecked rifle cartridge, but not surprising for a straight-walled pistol cartridge. I always have a few factory cartridges around to compare my handloads to.

After 35 years of reloading, I finally bought a chronograph and a couple of calipers (bought the chrono first). And last Christmas I was given a vibratory case cleaner. I always considered them to be optional accessories. My brass is much cleaner now than before and where, before, I was guessing that I was under 1,000 fps (estimated by the amount of leading I got), now I know how fast those 158 grain SWCs are travelling.

When you are just learning, when in doubt, err on the side of caution. Measure everything, ask questions, do not fear asking something that seems like it should be obvious. After you have some experience you have the judgement to know where you can use expedient methods (hand-wiping your cartridges instead of using a tumbler to get them shiny-clean).

Don't be intimidated by lack of equipment. Safety glasses whenever working with primers is more important than a micrometer and using your head is more important than accepting every piece of (especially conflicting) piece of advice handed you.

Good luck, be safe

Lost Sheep

Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post. Maybe especially this post.

Do your own independent, confirming research when ANYONE gives you new facts on the web.

Also remember, even the idiotic stuff might have a kernel of truth buried in there somewhere.

disclaimer to everyone reading this thread, not just the original poster: I do not know you, so if my advice seems over-obvious, take into account my ignorance of your experience level. Also, other readers of all experience levels are reading.

P.S. What Dmazure said is very wise.

Quote:

I believe there are more nuances to reloading than most of us are ever going to understand. Kind of keeps it interesting. I also believe that if a person understands the process, he will probably stay out of trouble. Keep studying!

oldNewbie · January 7, 2010, 08:45 PM

How necessary (if at all) is adding the brass polish to the media in a tumbler?

My goal is to keep grit out of my dies and have the reloaded cases clean enough so that there are no issues with fit in the cylinders of my Taurus 82 or 85. It doesn't have to be pretty or pristine.

And, do carbide dies ever need cleaning - and how is it done? Is there ever a lead buildup in a bullet seating die?

Thanks -

oldNewbie

Lost Sheep · January 9, 2010, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldNewbie

Case tumbler / polish
How necessary (if at all) is adding the brass polish to the media in a tumbler?

My goal is to keep grit out of my dies and have the reloaded cases clean enough so that there are no issues with fit in the cylinders of my Taurus 82 or 85. It doesn't have to be pretty or pristine.

And, do carbide dies ever need cleaning - and how is it done? Is there ever a lead buildup in a bullet seating die?

Thanks -

oldNewbie

Welcome to the forum, oldnewbie.

I am new to cleaning my brass with a tumbler, so am not much help there, but my habits might be illuminating.

30 years reloading and I just clean my brass with a soft cloth. The brass looks ugly, but shoots just fine.

I clean the insides of my (carbide) dies the same way. When they have any dirt or any foreign substance, I wipe them down until they sparkle, or at least are devoid of anything they did not have when new. I never used soap and water, just dry cloth. I don't know if that is the best way, but what I have done. (I never claimed to know everything.)

I would not use any liquid with a T-C die. The T-C ring is press fit into the steel die body and can come out (and break) if you are careless (like getting hydraulic pressure built up behind it). I am also cautious about rust getting anywhere on my dies. Just paranoia, probably, but if I don't know it's safe, I be cautious.

(Did I just say "I be cautious"?) My default position is to err on the side of caution.

I have never had lead build up in my bullet seating dies. However, I do have buildup of bullet lube which has to be cleaned out periodically so it does not alter the seating depth or any other dimensions. It also just looks better and keeps my hands and loaded cartridges cleaner. Bullet lube on the outside of a cartridge is inviting grit to climb aboard and scratch the insides of your chambers.

I wipe out my crimping/seating die parts regularly. Again, just paper towels and soft cloth, I don't use soap, but would not hesitate if a wipedown was not sufficient. But drying carefully afterward.

Lost Sheep

Jim243 · January 9, 2010, 11:09 AM

Answers

Question 1 - Because you do not trim that is why it is happening - no crimp die will not help.

Question 2 - Go to Harbor Freight or on-line caliber $10-$25.00 dollars, Tumbler under $50.00 . Use dish soap (no ammonia) , water and a little lemon juce, rinse thougherly.

Question 3 - refer to answer #1.

Jim

vranasaurus · January 9, 2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

In perusing through the responses to CowBoy Bob's thread on reloading for a noobie, I was amazed to see the number of folks who stated that they never trim their pistol brass - some even seemed to be proud of that fact. Shame, shame! Why do you think they make case trimmers? CowBoy Bob, do not listen to these arm chair experts! Buy yourself a dial caliper and use it. When your cases reach the upper limit, and reach the "trim to'' length as specified in you loading manual, trim them back to proper length. Most cases stretch with every firing, and eventually must be trimmed back. Pay far more attention to what is in your loading manual, than what you see on the internet

USMC Vet

Trimmers are for trimming cases that need to be trimmed. The reason that no one trims their pistol cases is because they don't grow and exceed the maximum case length.

If I ever got a pistol case that exceeded the max case length I would chuck it because I am not readjusting my trimmer to trim an occasional pistol case.

stump shooter · January 9, 2010, 11:40 AM

If it hasn't been mentioned already, another way to prep your cases before sizing is to just wipe them down with a coarse paper towel.

You can also take it another step and give them a swipe with some 0000 steel wool and then the coarse paper towel. This will shine them up a tad.
If you're not loading large volume, this can be done in front the the TV.
Just lay the case on a partially unrolled pad and using both hands wrap the wool around the case and just rotate it inside.

Everything stays dry and you can move onto the next step.

semi_problomatic · January 10, 2010, 07:35 PM

I just got a case tumbler for christmas from my dad, so before I just used some steel wool and a soft rag for any clean-up I needed to do. Hand cleaning gave me more time to inspect the brass before I loaded them, and since I only load 10-20 rounds at a time its not too time consuming. I did find though that the oils from my hands would leave finger prints etched into the brass, and the little slivers of steel wool could imbed themselves into my fingers. I'd use some kind of latex glove and wipe them down with a paper towel first and then get out the steel wool for any bad spots. Now I just toss them in my tumbler and handle them with latex gloves after pulling them out until they're finished.

Also as far as trimming cases... It depends on why you reload, I reload for accuracy and only for accuracy. I want the best possible round I can make coming out of my rifle. One of the key components for accuracy is everything being exactly the same every time. IE case length, seating depth, amount of powder in the case, bullet concentricty etc etc etc.

I started reloading for a .308, but since then I've gotten a .243 (wife's) a 45-70 (dad's) and a .45 LC (mine) that all need to be fed too.

reloader28 · January 11, 2010, 11:39 AM

I dont like LEE equipment, but the trim case trimmer is OK for your purpose.
Its only about $5.
Put it in a drill and you can trim, debur, and chamfer the cases in a couple seconds.
Polish the cases by holding an SOS pad or fine steel wool lightly against it as it rotates.
You really dont want to run dirty cases into your dies.
Sometimes all they need is a wipe off but sometimes they need some real cleaning and even doing it this way in a drill does a decent job.

oldNewbie · February 5, 2010, 11:53 PM

I don't know if this is the proper forum, but it is something I noticed in the course of learning reloading. Fired cases from my Taurus model 82 revolver seem to consistently display a half-ellipsis soot pattern from the case mouth, narrowing down the side of the case toward the head, in an area about 1/4 the diameter of the case.

This says to me that gas is escaping in one area, more than in other areas around the case mouth. I intend to check it out next time I shoot, to see what area it is in relation to the cylinder / barrel.

My question would be, is this normal, or does it indicate some problem with the weapon itself? I'm assuming it's normal, since it occurs with various powder charges and different bullets (mostly 158-grain LSWCs but also lower-weight JHPs). It just seems odd.

OldNewbie

SwampYankee · February 6, 2010, 09:21 AM

Quote:

If I ever got a pistol case that exceeded the max case length I would chuck it because I am not readjusting my trimmer to trim an occasional pistol case.

Amen brother. I'm thinking about buying a second case trimmer so I don't have to adjust between rifle calibers....

crimsondave · February 6, 2010, 09:47 AM

In all the time I've been reloading, I've never seen a straight wall case stretch beyond the limmit. Ever. I have trimmed my pistol brass in the past just to make them uniform, but have found this to be a waste of time.

I crimp with a seperate die. You don't have to, but it is easier to me to do it that way.

howlnmad · February 6, 2010, 11:19 AM

Your crimp was not uniform most likely do to the ceas mouth not being square. On new, or new to me, brass I like to check them for length and square up the mouths. On straight walled brass you should probably only have to do this once or twice in it's lifetime due to the fact that they don't stretch that much. Bottle-necks are a completely different story, they should be checked and tended to with each loading.

ColdBore · February 7, 2010, 02:12 AM

PHP Code:


			
I dont like LEE equipment, but the trim case trimmer is OK for your purpose.

Its only about $5.

Reloader28: I've seen your posts many times before and I agree and appreciate the sound advice you often give. However, this time, I'm afraid not only do I disagree, but I must state my objection to your statement.

I purchased the Lee case trimmer you spoke of and while trimming (with a drill) nearly a hundred cases, the case gauge continually grew shorter. The tip was developing a flange. Evidently, the metallurgy of the gauge was softer than the case lock in which it was paired for. Had it not been for me being meticulous and measuring every few cases after trimming, I would have trimmed many of the cases too short.
As you said, the item costs about $5...and well worth the price. You get what you pay for.

As luck would have it, I don't like Lee products either.

dbxdm9 · February 12, 2010, 01:07 PM

I checked the firsts 500 pieces of 9mm brass, after re-sizing, before I reloaded them. They were all scrounged from the floor of the firing range. Checked all with a digital caliper, not one needed trimmed. I don't bother any more.

re: Cleaning brass - I always do it. Makes the rest of the reloading process much cleaner, doesn't dirty up the dies, it is much easier to check clean brass for problems, and it just looks cool.

I use crushed walnut as media, add a capful of NuFinish car polish (to shine the brass), and a torn up dryer sheet (to keep down the dust.) Tumble 2-4 hours and the brass looks like new. I don't de-prime until after tumbling so i don't have to clean walnut gunk out of the empty primer pockets.

I use a Lyman tumbler I picked up for less than $50.

January 3, 2010, 09:34 PM	#5
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	Welcome Cowboybob, Welcome to the world of reloading. My experience has been different from mrawesome22's. So you know where how opinions were formed, my experience has been all with straight-walled pistol cases, 9mm, 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum, 45 Colt and 454 Casull. Most of my 357s have never even seen a 38 special and I have never even owned a 44 special cartridge. I just load the larger cases to whatever power level I want, usually not very high. High power loads are usually factory loads which give me my supply of brass. I loaded for nearly 40 years without a brass cleaner of any kind. I just wipe any foreign material off the shells with soft cloth and go for it. My brass was dull, even ugly, but has always worked fine. Last year, a shooting buddy gave me a Christmas present of a tumbler. I guess he was embarrassed for me. My brass looks brighter, but shoots no better. I have never trimmed a single cartridge case ever. I also don't shoot a lot of very heavy loads. I throw away brass with cracked case mouths and would probably throw away any 45 ACP or 9mm that got too long to headspace correctly. About the crimp question. If your cartridge case centered in the die as you work the handle, it will tilt, or even be bent. That might account for an uneven case mouth and crimp. Not likely, though. If your brass is not square (the same length all the way around its circumference), a uniform crimp will be impossible. Trim the brass or toss it. This is also not likely. Here's what I think is most likely. I assume you are loading lead bullets, not jacketed. If your die is not correctly adjusted, the bullet will still be being seated deeper in the case after the crimp has has started being made. The crimp will cut into the side of the lead bullet and will appear as if the crimp is not uniform because the brass is buried. I have done this, and that's what it looks like. Readjust the die properly and the problem will go away, if that's what it was. You could back the die out and advance the seating post by the same amount, but it would probably be better to just back everything out and start over. How I adjust my Seating/Crimping dies: 1) Pull the seating post all the way out. 2) Set the die height for a proper crimp (use a perfect round as a guide; buy a box of factory loads if you have to). Run the ram all the way up and double check it during the process. 3) Back the die out so it does not apply any crimp at all to a freshly belled case run all the way up on the ram. (Remember how much rotation it took). 4) Lock the die in place. 5) Put the bullet seating post in place in the die, but not screwed in very far. 6) Put a bullet in the mouth of a belled cartridge case and put the case in the press in the press and run it up into the die (all the way up). 7) Screw the bullet seating post down until it contacts the bullet nose. 8) Extract the cartridge from the die and observe the depth to which the bullet has been pushed into the case. 9) Screw in the bullet seating post a little. 10) Run the cartridge all the way up into the die and pull it back out. 11) Extract the cartridge from the die and observe the depth to which the bullet has been pushed into the case. 12) Repeat (steps 8 to 11) until the bullet is almost, but not quite to the right depth. The case mouth should be right at the bottom of the crimping groove. 13) Lock the seating post where it is. 14) Unlock the die and screw it in the same amount of rotation you backed out before. (Step 3) 15) Lock the die in place. 16) Run the cartridge all the way up into the die. That will finish seating the bullet and apply the crimp. You should have a perfectly formed, dimensionally correct cartridge which you can use as a model for all your future setups. If you left out powder and primer, you have a "Dummy Round" to use as a reference for future reloading. 17) If the cartridge is not perfectly formed and dimensionally correct, do it over again, but since your judgment will be informed by this "failure" your next attempt will likely be right on. If your batch of brass has different length cases, either sort them by length into different batches and adjust the die for each different batch or trim them all to the same length. As I said before, I have never needed to trim my brass, so you can correctly infer I have not had bunches brass stretched to different lengths. If I had brass of different lengths, I would have bought a case trimmer years ago and uniformed them all up. I hope this helps. Lost Sheep. Long post? It was very succinct. Look at mine.

January 4, 2010, 09:21 AM	#6
NCMountain Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2009 Location: western, NC Posts: 121	Welcome I will keep it short here. First congrats on reading and re-reading the manual, something alot of folks don't do. Simplicity of one caliber does make it easier to begin. Uneven crimp.....hmmmmm? Makes me think you may need to measure your brass for one, to see if it is stretched depending on what if any hot loads you shoot that will stretch the case. I find a trimmer an essential piece of equipment and like the Lee trimmer, they only cost several dollars so it is not like these will break the bank. Are you reloading factory shot ammo for the 1st time or what????? Tumbling.......I don't see how anyone does without one but I am a complete package person when it comes to reloading. May as well have all the goodies. But you can use a very very mild steel wool to rub the outer case to clean it but your still in need to do some minor cleaning in the case itself. That is where a tumbler assist alot. That will be something for you to evaluate later if other methods become too time engaging. Good luck and sure you will get tons of information.

January 6, 2010, 12:24 AM	#10
USMC Vet Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: S.E. New Hampshire Posts: 30	How to get in a world of hurt. In perusing through the responses to CowBoy Bob's thread on reloading for a noobie, I was amazed to see the number of folks who stated that they never trim their pistol brass - some even seemed to be proud of that fact. Shame, shame! Why do you think they make case trimmers? CowBoy Bob, do not listen to these arm chair experts! Buy yourself a dial caliper and use it. When your cases reach the upper limit, and reach the "trim to'' length as specified in you loading manual, trim them back to proper length. Most cases stretch with every firing, and eventually must be trimmed back. Pay far more attention to what is in your loading manual, than what you see on the internet USMC Vet

January 7, 2010, 08:45 PM	#13
oldNewbie Member Join Date: December 27, 2009 Location: Missouri Posts: 46	Case tumbler / polish How necessary (if at all) is adding the brass polish to the media in a tumbler? My goal is to keep grit out of my dies and have the reloaded cases clean enough so that there are no issues with fit in the cylinders of my Taurus 82 or 85. It doesn't have to be pretty or pristine. And, do carbide dies ever need cleaning - and how is it done? Is there ever a lead buildup in a bullet seating die? Thanks - oldNewbie

January 10, 2010, 07:35 PM	#18
semi_problomatic Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2009 Location: Ft. Polk Posts: 883	cleaning cases I just got a case tumbler for christmas from my dad, so before I just used some steel wool and a soft rag for any clean-up I needed to do. Hand cleaning gave me more time to inspect the brass before I loaded them, and since I only load 10-20 rounds at a time its not too time consuming. I did find though that the oils from my hands would leave finger prints etched into the brass, and the little slivers of steel wool could imbed themselves into my fingers. I'd use some kind of latex glove and wipe them down with a paper towel first and then get out the steel wool for any bad spots. Now I just toss them in my tumbler and handle them with latex gloves after pulling them out until they're finished. Also as far as trimming cases... It depends on why you reload, I reload for accuracy and only for accuracy. I want the best possible round I can make coming out of my rifle. One of the key components for accuracy is everything being exactly the same every time. IE case length, seating depth, amount of powder in the case, bullet concentricty etc etc etc. I started reloading for a .308, but since then I've gotten a .243 (wife's) a 45-70 (dad's) and a .45 LC (mine) that all need to be fed too.

January 3, 2010, 08:21 PM	#1
CowboyBob Junior Member Join Date: August 29, 2009 Posts: 7	New to reloading Hey all, I'm new to reloading and have a couple of simple questions you guys can probably help with. I purchased a Lee hand press and carbide 44 magnum dies, as this is the only round I have interest in reloading for. I now have all necessary components (and have read and reread my reloading manuals). Before I actually get down to business of reloading, the plan is to practice loading a couple of shells with a already used primer and no powder just to master the operation of my equipment. My question is this: when I crimped the the shell, the crimp didn't appear uniform all the way around, i.e. the angle of the crimp was (slightly) steeper on one side than the other. Is this ok, or is it a problem? I have a Lee three die carbide set, the crimp is integral with the bullet seater. I think Lee sells a separate crimping die, should I go ahead and invest in this? One more question: I don't have a tumbler, and don't particularly want to purchase one. Are there alternatives to cleaning brass? I saw some sort of liquid cleaner on Cabelas. There must have been some sort of method before tumblers came along. Final question: Will I ever need a case trimmer? None of my once fired brass has stretched beyond fitting in my Lyman case gauge, so I have no need to trim now. After brass has been used multiple times, will it stretch more? Thanks guys, sorry for the long post.

January 3, 2010, 08:31 PM	#2
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	I would crimp in a separate step. And yes you will need a trimmer. If you trim all your brass square and to the same length, only then will your crimp be uniform. I have heard of people cleaning brass in a clothes washer but I only have experience with a tumbler.

January 3, 2010, 08:41 PM	#3
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	You can clean brass in a bucket of warm, soapy water - just make sure they are completely dry before reloading. Don't use momma's washer or dishwasher - you don't need that residue on clothes or dishes. While trimming is nice, I have never trimmed any of my 38 or 357 brass - ever - and I have never had any issues with crimps - YMMV I use RCBS dies and seat and crimp with the one die - once set up, you should be fine. I would load your practice round without primers in them - that way you know those are reloading practice and not duds.

January 3, 2010, 09:21 PM	#4
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,332	I always crimp in a separate step. It makes much more uniform ammunition. It can be done in the same step but I have never mastered the technique with my RCBS dies. Someday I may work it out but it's easy enough for me to do in separate steps. I do not think you need to trim cases with .44 Magnum. I have never trimmed cases with .45 Colt, .357 Magnum or .38 Special. Rifle cases are a different story and you will eventually need to trim those, not usually pistol cases. I cannot imagine cleaning brass in anything but a tumbler. Walnut shell and a little brass polish and everything is clean within a couple hours. Very little mess, no hassle. Invest in a bullet puller while you are at it. You can salvage anything you screw up that way. $11 from Midway.

January 4, 2010, 08:51 PM	#7
oldNewbie Member Join Date: December 27, 2009 Location: Missouri Posts: 46	I'm new to reloading too, just got my setup (Lee 50th anniversary kit). For bullet seating I followed the directions that came with the Lee .38 special carbide dies (a similar process as Lost Sheep described) and after three attempts, I had the bullet seating and crimp dialed in with (what I think is) a perfect crimp just below the top of the cannelure. (Please correct me if that's wrong!) I'm using Suter's Choice 158-gr. hard-cast semi-wadcutters and once- or twice-fired factory brass. I fired my first reloads this past Saturday, and they worked perfectly. Based on the cost of buying ammo at the range or elsewhere, the reloading equipment and supplies will have paid for themselves after 2 or 3 more trips to the range. Plus, it's quite enjoyable as a hobby! I read the ABC's of Reloading and the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (7th edition) before I got started, and I had a pretty good idea what to expect. I'd enjoy any suggestions for other reading material. I'm particularly interested in the case-cleaning aspect because I didn't buy a tumbler at the time, but it's looking more and more necessary after hand-wiping 150 cases with gun cleaning patches dampened with Hoppe's #9 and then wiping off the solvent with a soft cloth. Does a tumbler clean the inside of the cases as well as the outside? Is there any problem with getting media out of the cases afterward (do they need to be blown out with compressed air, tapped on the bench, etc.)? Does the tumbler clean the primer pocket as well?

January 4, 2010, 10:34 PM	#8
tag2501 Member Join Date: November 7, 2008 Posts: 18	regarding trimming: once-shot factory brass wont (usually need it) new brass should be measured and trimmed to length (usually only need to do once for pistol brass. most makers have a few long, a few short and most to correct length in a given lot as far as case cleaning, its partly aesthetics, and partly making the cases clean enough to handle without black on everything. I think tumbling is pretty much hands-off (easy) so it's the preferred method, and cleans the cases inside and out. Some debate out there about de-priming before cleaning (maybe depends on the media and the brass size - for some combinations of brass and media the media gets stuck in the primer flash hole). Its not worth tumbling cases for hours and hours to replicate a new brass finish one thing I'd strongly recommend doing on new and several-times-fired brass is using a tool to uniform size the primer pocket so all of the primers seat to the same depth (and deep enough to maintain easy cycling of the handgun, especially revolvers). dirty primer pockets can raise the primer seating depth enough to cause a handgun cylinder to hang up on the extended primer. in a semi auto rifle it can cause slamfires (not fun) as the firing pin rides forward a bit as the bolt closes.

January 5, 2010, 09:46 AM	#9
NCMountain Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2009 Location: western, NC Posts: 121	Tag is right about the tumbler. Plus I tumble for maybe 2 hours and that is good enough for me. The exterior of the brass is like new and the interior is fairly clean too.

January 6, 2010, 12:58 AM	#11
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	Pistol brass generally doesn't stretch on resizing like bottleneck cartridges do. For reloading .45 ACP, I've checked brass and found only a few out of several hundred that needed trimming. Probably manufacturing tolerances more than anything. IMO, .45 ACP doesn't need constant trimming, but since it is supposed to headspace on the case mouth, it is a good idea to do a case length check with calipers or a gauge initially. For reloading .44 Mag, I've found that if I didn't remove manufacturer's variations by trimming to a consistent length, I couldn't get a consistent roll crimp. Again, after this initial trimming, I haven't found a need to trim the cases again. Now .243 Win and .30-06 Sprg are entirely different! Resizing does cause the case length to stretch, unless you're using RCBS X-dies. If you don't keep the length below max, you can crimp the case mouth in the lands on chambering and cause a dangerous pressure rise. Some reloaders trim quite a bit below the recommended case trim length and can get 10 or more reloadings before they have to trim again. Neck tension is reduced a little, but perhaps this isn't significant as long as it's uniform. I believe there are more nuances to reloading than most of us are ever going to understand. Kind of keeps it interesting. I also believe that if a person understands the process, he will probably stay out of trouble. Keep studying!

January 9, 2010, 11:09 AM	#15
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Answers Question 1 - Because you do not trim that is why it is happening - no crimp die will not help. Question 2 - Go to Harbor Freight or on-line caliber $10-$25.00 dollars, Tumbler under $50.00 . Use dish soap (no ammonia) , water and a little lemon juce, rinse thougherly. Question 3 - refer to answer #1. Jim

January 9, 2010, 11:40 AM	#17
stump shooter Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Posts: 61	If it hasn't been mentioned already, another way to prep your cases before sizing is to just wipe them down with a coarse paper towel. You can also take it another step and give them a swipe with some 0000 steel wool and then the coarse paper towel. This will shine them up a tad. If you're not loading large volume, this can be done in front the the TV. Just lay the case on a partially unrolled pad and using both hands wrap the wool around the case and just rotate it inside. Everything stays dry and you can move onto the next step.

January 11, 2010, 11:39 AM	#19
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	I dont like LEE equipment, but the trim case trimmer is OK for your purpose. Its only about $5. Put it in a drill and you can trim, debur, and chamfer the cases in a couple seconds. Polish the cases by holding an SOS pad or fine steel wool lightly against it as it rotates. You really dont want to run dirty cases into your dies. Sometimes all they need is a wipe off but sometimes they need some real cleaning and even doing it this way in a drill does a decent job.

February 5, 2010, 11:53 PM	#20
oldNewbie Member Join Date: December 27, 2009 Location: Missouri Posts: 46	Soot pattern I don't know if this is the proper forum, but it is something I noticed in the course of learning reloading. Fired cases from my Taurus model 82 revolver seem to consistently display a half-ellipsis soot pattern from the case mouth, narrowing down the side of the case toward the head, in an area about 1/4 the diameter of the case. This says to me that gas is escaping in one area, more than in other areas around the case mouth. I intend to check it out next time I shoot, to see what area it is in relation to the cylinder / barrel. My question would be, is this normal, or does it indicate some problem with the weapon itself? I'm assuming it's normal, since it occurs with various powder charges and different bullets (mostly 158-grain LSWCs but also lower-weight JHPs). It just seems odd. OldNewbie

February 6, 2010, 09:47 AM	#22
crimsondave Senior Member Join Date: September 30, 2009 Location: North Augusta, SC Posts: 490	In all the time I've been reloading, I've never seen a straight wall case stretch beyond the limmit. Ever. I have trimmed my pistol brass in the past just to make them uniform, but have found this to be a waste of time. I crimp with a seperate die. You don't have to, but it is easier to me to do it that way.

February 6, 2010, 11:19 AM	#23
howlnmad Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2009 Location: Harriman Tn Posts: 424	Your crimp was not uniform most likely do to the ceas mouth not being square. On new, or new to me, brass I like to check them for length and square up the mouths. On straight walled brass you should probably only have to do this once or twice in it's lifetime due to the fact that they don't stretch that much. Bottle-necks are a completely different story, they should be checked and tended to with each loading.

February 7, 2010, 02:12 AM	#24
ColdBore Member Join Date: December 9, 2009 Location: Inland Empire, Ca. Posts: 25	PHP Code: `I dont like LEE equipment, but the trim case trimmer is OK for your purpose. Its only about $5.` Reloader28: I've seen your posts many times before and I agree and appreciate the sound advice you often give. However, this time, I'm afraid not only do I disagree, but I must state my objection to your statement. I purchased the Lee case trimmer you spoke of and while trimming (with a drill) nearly a hundred cases, the case gauge continually grew shorter. The tip was developing a flange. Evidently, the metallurgy of the gauge was softer than the case lock in which it was paired for. Had it not been for me being meticulous and measuring every few cases after trimming, I would have trimmed many of the cases too short. As you said, the item costs about $5...and well worth the price. You get what you pay for. As luck would have it, I don't like Lee products either.

February 12, 2010, 01:07 PM	#25
dbxdm9 Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2010 Posts: 4	I checked the firsts 500 pieces of 9mm brass, after re-sizing, before I reloaded them. They were all scrounged from the floor of the firing range. Checked all with a digital caliper, not one needed trimmed. I don't bother any more. re: Cleaning brass - I always do it. Makes the rest of the reloading process much cleaner, doesn't dirty up the dies, it is much easier to check clean brass for problems, and it just looks cool. I use crushed walnut as media, add a capful of NuFinish car polish (to shine the brass), and a torn up dryer sheet (to keep down the dust.) Tumble 2-4 hours and the brass looks like new. I don't de-prime until after tumbling so i don't have to clean walnut gunk out of the empty primer pockets. I use a Lyman tumbler I picked up for less than $50.