R-P rifle brass consistency?

Big Caliber · September 14, 2009, 12:39 AM

This evening for fun I decided to trim some (70) pieces of Remington 25-06 brass that had been fire formed and neck sized. Upon eyeing the mouth of the case I noticed that the neck wall was thicker on one side than the other. Half of the brass had this flaw to one degree or another. The other half appeared to have uniform neck thickness (to the unaided eye). Is this normal for R-P brass? The brass did not all come from the same lot. I realize that the 25-06 is not considered a "target" cartridge and thus not as "accurate" as, say, a 308 or a 6PPC, but it's fun trying to squeeze out as much accuracy (consistancy) as I can. I use Lapua for my 308. But they don't make brass in this caliber. Would it be worth it to buy their 30-06 brass and dies to re-form it to 25-06?

Jim243 · September 14, 2009, 02:55 AM

Do you trim your brass with a case length gauge? I would just turn the necks on the existing brass because you will need to buy the same tools to turn the necks on your 25-06 cases without having to purchase more brass and the dies to do 30-06 brass to 25-06. or so I would think.

Jim

**Unclenick** · September 14, 2009, 10:09 AM

It depends how bad it is? First, be sure you don't just have uneven mouth chamfering fooling your eye? You probably want to use a ball-end micrometer or a runout measuring tool to see what's real? Winchester tends to have a lot of runout in wall thickness (I've measure up to 0.004" difference on a Winchester .308 case from one side of the neck to the next (0.0040" TIR or Total Indicated Runout), but it was the only one out of 500 that had that number; 0.0015" was more normal).

The last batch of Winchester I bought also had four distinct weight peaks in the lot, indicating it had come off four different sets of tooling. I wish they didn't mix them like that, but they all do. Even Lapua, which makes the dimensionally most consistent brass, had two distinct tool sets involved in the last .308 brass I bought of theirs (though the two were far closer and tighter in tolerance than the different Winchester tools produced). Since both Remington and Winchester use various foreign contractors, I wouldn't be surprised to see lot-to-lot variations far worse than they are within a lot.

If your measurements show this variance is real and it is over about 0.002" average, I would be tempted to consider those cases defective and return them to Remington. Figure 0.004" runout could add about 1 moa to your group size. You can cut that in half by marking each case to indicate the thin or the thick side, and always orienting that the same way in the chamber before shooting. It will also affect neck tension on the bullets, so you want to segregate it from the good cases anyway. It will also tend to come off the sizing dies with the neck pulled more off-axis. None of that is helpful to best accuracy.

sundog · September 14, 2009, 10:22 AM

+1 on outside neck turning. It's a one time operation after fire forming and neck sizing. It also eliminates the need to register the brass, i.e., thick or thin side up or down, which in my opinion is a good way to start premature throat erosion. If you have a decent, concentric chamber, and you produce hand loads with as little run out as possible, you will be way ahead in the accuracy department.

c.j.sikes · September 14, 2009, 06:29 PM

right on sundog cjs

A_Gamehog · September 15, 2009, 07:27 PM

I shot my best 5 shot group with New untrimmed, untouched brass from R-P with a .223 at 100 yards. I have Lapua, Norma, Lake City, Nosler, Winchester, Federal, PMC. I think unless you have a Custom Chamber, neck turning is a waste of time, and it shortens the life of the brass. Unless you shoot for $$$ big bucks and fame I now look elsewhere for consistent accuracy. I think neck turning is over rated for the average over the counter rifles. My go to everyday brass is Lake City. When I shoot for $$ it's Nosler.

If you can visibly see neck issues send it back. That's not the norm for them in their defense.

Just my 2 cents...

Christchild · September 16, 2009, 05:48 PM

I would go back and measure the case lengths, trim to 2.484" (25/06 Rem. Trim-To length), chamfer and deburr, then check neck wall thicknesses with Your calipers, but do that GENTLY. If You're still getting inconsistent case wall thicknesses, either Outside Turn or Inside Ream, or just leave it be. Some inconsistencies won't effect accuracy, to a great degree, in hunting ammo. A very few thousandths won't matter much.

Big Caliber · September 18, 2009, 12:33 AM

I noticed the discrepencies after I trimmed the brass to 2.484, using a dial caliper. Then chamfering and de-burring yielded a few more cases that were more even. I've been doing alot of reading on precision reloading and started to look the brass in the mouth.

I'm just loading for fun with this caliber. I don't own a neck thickness guage or any other fancy gizmos for perfecting the necks. I'm just doing this by eye and wondered about other rifle brass. Thanks for the all the input.

September 14, 2009, 12:39 AM	#1
Big Caliber Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2006 Location: S. CA Posts: 421	R-P rifle brass consistency? This evening for fun I decided to trim some (70) pieces of Remington 25-06 brass that had been fire formed and neck sized. Upon eyeing the mouth of the case I noticed that the neck wall was thicker on one side than the other. Half of the brass had this flaw to one degree or another. The other half appeared to have uniform neck thickness (to the unaided eye). Is this normal for R-P brass? The brass did not all come from the same lot. I realize that the 25-06 is not considered a "target" cartridge and thus not as "accurate" as, say, a 308 or a 6PPC, but it's fun trying to squeeze out as much accuracy (consistancy) as I can. I use Lapua for my 308. But they don't make brass in this caliber. Would it be worth it to buy their 30-06 brass and dies to re-form it to 25-06?

September 14, 2009, 10:09 AM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,733	It depends how bad it is? First, be sure you don't just have uneven mouth chamfering fooling your eye? You probably want to use a ball-end micrometer or a runout measuring tool to see what's real? Winchester tends to have a lot of runout in wall thickness (I've measure up to 0.004" difference on a Winchester .308 case from one side of the neck to the next (0.0040" TIR or Total Indicated Runout), but it was the only one out of 500 that had that number; 0.0015" was more normal). The last batch of Winchester I bought also had four distinct weight peaks in the lot, indicating it had come off four different sets of tooling. I wish they didn't mix them like that, but they all do. Even Lapua, which makes the dimensionally most consistent brass, had two distinct tool sets involved in the last .308 brass I bought of theirs (though the two were far closer and tighter in tolerance than the different Winchester tools produced). Since both Remington and Winchester use various foreign contractors, I wouldn't be surprised to see lot-to-lot variations far worse than they are within a lot. If your measurements show this variance is real and it is over about 0.002" average, I would be tempted to consider those cases defective and return them to Remington. Figure 0.004" runout could add about 1 moa to your group size. You can cut that in half by marking each case to indicate the thin or the thick side, and always orienting that the same way in the chamber before shooting. It will also affect neck tension on the bullets, so you want to segregate it from the good cases anyway. It will also tend to come off the sizing dies with the neck pulled more off-axis. None of that is helpful to best accuracy. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 14, 2009, 10:22 AM	#4
sundog Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 1999 Location: Green Country, OK Posts: 783	+1 on outside neck turning. It's a one time operation after fire forming and neck sizing. It also eliminates the need to register the brass, i.e., thick or thin side up or down, which in my opinion is a good way to start premature throat erosion. If you have a decent, concentric chamber, and you produce hand loads with as little run out as possible, you will be way ahead in the accuracy department. __________________ safety first

September 14, 2009, 06:29 PM	#5
c.j.sikes Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2006 Location: marlow okla Posts: 227	trim 25-06 right on sundog cjs

September 15, 2009, 07:27 PM	#6
A_Gamehog Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2009 Location: Central Oregun Posts: 563	Remington brass is Quality stuff I shot my best 5 shot group with New untrimmed, untouched brass from R-P with a .223 at 100 yards. I have Lapua, Norma, Lake City, Nosler, Winchester, Federal, PMC. I think unless you have a Custom Chamber, neck turning is a waste of time, and it shortens the life of the brass. Unless you shoot for $$$ big bucks and fame I now look elsewhere for consistent accuracy. I think neck turning is over rated for the average over the counter rifles. My go to everyday brass is Lake City. When I shoot for $$ it's Nosler. If you can visibly see neck issues send it back. That's not the norm for them in their defense. Just my 2 cents... Last edited by A_Gamehog; September 15, 2009 at 07:33 PM.

September 14, 2009, 02:55 AM	#2
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Do you trim your brass with a case length gauge? I would just turn the necks on the existing brass because you will need to buy the same tools to turn the necks on your 25-06 cases without having to purchase more brass and the dies to do 30-06 brass to 25-06. or so I would think. Jim

September 16, 2009, 05:48 PM	#7
Christchild Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Location: Loadbenchville, Bolt 02770 Posts: 544	I would go back and measure the case lengths, trim to 2.484" (25/06 Rem. Trim-To length), chamfer and deburr, then check neck wall thicknesses with Your calipers, but do that GENTLY. If You're still getting inconsistent case wall thicknesses, either Outside Turn or Inside Ream, or just leave it be. Some inconsistencies won't effect accuracy, to a great degree, in hunting ammo. A very few thousandths won't matter much. Last edited by Christchild; September 16, 2009 at 05:54 PM.

September 18, 2009, 12:33 AM	#8
Big Caliber Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2006 Location: S. CA Posts: 421	I noticed the discrepencies after I trimmed the brass to 2.484, using a dial caliper. Then chamfering and de-burring yielded a few more cases that were more even. I've been doing alot of reading on precision reloading and started to look the brass in the mouth. I'm just loading for fun with this caliber. I don't own a neck thickness guage or any other fancy gizmos for perfecting the necks. I'm just doing this by eye and wondered about other rifle brass. Thanks for the all the input.