Unleaded 30-06

Razorman · April 24, 2009, 06:49 PM

Living in the Land of Fruits & Nuts (California), much of our public hunting land is becoming lead-free. Responding to this I've decided to load up some 30-06 with Barnes TSX. My Speer loading manual doesn't have that specific bullet listed, and Barnes website doesn't have my powder's listed. I have some 4064 and some 4831. Powder is REALLY hard to get around here right now so I'd like to try to stick to what I have on hand.
I loaded a few 150gr TSX with 49gr of 4064 and they were shooting about 5" low consistantly. I checked against some factory lead ammo that I had laying around and some lead reloads of mine and they were all threading needles at 100yd.
Here's my question: Has anyone loaded a 150gr TSX in 30-06 with either of these powders and found a charge that works? I guess I could load up a bunch increasing the powder charge by 0.5gr until I find some that work but that gets expensive. If anyone has an answer or an innovative idea I'd love to hear it. Thanks.

**Unclenick** · April 24, 2009, 07:22 PM

Welcome to the forum.

Are these the flat base (#30820) or the BT (#30841) TSX bullets? What COL are you using. What cases and primers? What is your barrel twist rate?

I show with the flat base TSX seated to 3.27" COL, with a military case, 51.5 grains of IMR4064 being a 2800 fps load. IMR4831 needs a compressed load of 57.5 grains to get there.

Those bullets have higher starting pressures than jacketed lead, and they are long for their weight, requiring more twist than their shorter lead core counterparts. Five inches is a lot of drop, and makes it seem you must be in the middle of a harmonic downswing of your barrel with your current load.

Razorman · April 24, 2009, 07:46 PM

COAL: 3.218" over a fair variety of once-fired cases (mostly Federal nickle cases). The bullet is the BT (30841). I'm using WLR primers. I'm afraid I don't know the twist on the rifle, it was originally my grandfather's, who gave it to my dad, who gave it to my uncle, who gave it to my brother, who gave it to me. I love the rifle. I need to look down the barrel and count the twist, I guess.

I was assuming the same thing about the harmonic drop as you were but I wasn't sure how to correct the issue. It was quite the shock to me to have it be so imprecise. Usually my pre-hunting season includes going to the range, firing three shots, chuckling in satisfaction and going home. I've never had this gun not make a clover on the bullseye at 100yd until the other day. I'm not accustomed to having to work to get this gun ready for a season (it's pig season in Cali). Of course, I've never shot all copper before. Thank you for the advice.

dmazur · April 24, 2009, 08:04 PM

I guess you could look down the barrel and count the turns over the entire barrel length...but there is another way that I believe might be easier -

Get your cleaning rod and a tight patch on a jag tip. Put some masking tape on the cleaning rod near the handle. Mark "top" with a Sharpie. Measure from the tape to the end of the action (assuming cleaning a bolt-action.) Push the cleaning rod into the rifle. When the mark on the tape is "top" again, stop. Measure from the tape to the end of the action again.

Difference between the two measurements is your twist rate. (1 in 10, 1 in 12, etc.)

Whenever the ammo panic subsides, Hornady is offering "gilding metal" leadfree bullets that are supposed to have the same ballistics as their lead equivalents. That is, you can develop loads using SST's and then use GMX's for hunting. I'm not sure they are available at dealers now, but if they are, you might try a box of these...

**Unclenick** · April 24, 2009, 08:52 PM

I left my computer while dmazur posted, so this duplicates his comments with small variation.

The usual way to handle the twist is to put a tight patch on your cleaning rod and put a pencil mark on the rod back near the handle and one on it by the muzzle. You run it in, letting it slip in your hands. When the upper mark has rotated one full turn, mark the rod next to the muzzle again. Withdraw the rod and measure the distance between the two marks made near the muzzle.

While you're at it, with the breech closed, put the rod in until it touches down on the boltface and mark it at the muzzle again. Withdraw it and measure from the tip to the muzzle mark to find your actual barrel length. We can get some velocity and best barrel time estimates from that.

A_Gamehog · April 25, 2009, 12:31 AM

Was that IMR-Dupont 4831?

Or Hodgdon H4831

big difference in those two as far as dangerous to confuse.
The weight of the bullets that shot so well? can you take one apart with a set of pliers and weight it? Easy to duplicate if a known weight is a starting point. The brass has a headstamp for duplication/type also.

I shoot 150 TSX and 180TSX with both H4831 and IMR 4831 different powder charge for both powders and bullets, many variables to be sure of. Both bullets handle more pressure than standard, always refer to Barnes' BOOK#4

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

150TSX IMR 4064 49.5-52.0

165TSX IMR 4064 46.5-50.0

180TSX IMR 4064 44.5-48.0* most accurate powder tested...
180TSX IMR 4831 53.0-56.5

10 Spot Terminator · April 25, 2009, 08:13 AM

Note the following when using the Barnes TSX or TTSX or MRX bullets only and the opposite applies to the older X bullets and solids,,,

Due to the "ring and groove" make up of the bullet Barnes has stated if using reload data other than their own you can add 1 to 2 grains more powder to the starting as well as max load data . It was nearly 3 years after the TSX bullet was on the market before Barnes had printed data in a manual for these bullets and this was their "offical" reply if queried as to load data. I have used the TSX longer than most and in 3 seperate calibres and have found this to be accurate in that 2 of my favorite loads are running at appx. 1.5 grs. over the average max publised data from multiple reload sources without any high pressure signs . This increase in powder based on the design of the bullet is due to less load bearing surface metal of the bullet contacting the bore therefore equaling less pressure . Pressure is a key factor in load developement for any cartridge with a specific powder and in this case more powder is needed to achieve pressures equal to test results to duplicate the load data. DO NOT USE THIS FOR THE OLDER BARNES X OR SOLIDS !!! The gliding metal in those bullets were all notorious for being sticky and heavy barrel foulers . As a result the exact opposite was needed for load workup with these bullets in that data used from other sources than Barnes had to be reduced by 10% to be safe. On another note Barnes recommends longer bullet set back on seating with their recommendation being .050 and you can pretty much take that to the bank. The least amount of setback I have been able to get away with is .045 and the others are at .050 and .055 respectively . Would be intersted how your load tests work out and if you would be so kind as to post your follow up for us . All the best, 10 Spot

**Unclenick** · April 25, 2009, 12:43 PM

Good information. I think the South Africans first started with those rings, but I didn't have a sense of how much effect on start pressure they had.

Stick_man · April 26, 2009, 03:10 AM

The TSX is a great bullet. Most of Barnes' bullets come with some loading data in the box, but I agree it is fairly limited. I have heard that if you contact Ty Herring at Barnes (I believe he is their main ballistician) he can get you pointed in the right direction. If you provide him with a few details about what you are wanting to do (cal., bullet weight, twist rate, powder desired, etc.), he can get things pretty close for you. Of course, you would still want to tweak the load to match up to your rifle.

I have found Barnes to be very helpful. Also, their newest manual (#4) has data for the TSX. You could probably even get some load data off of their website.

April 24, 2009, 06:49 PM	#1
Razorman Junior Member Join Date: April 24, 2009 Posts: 2	Unleaded 30-06 Living in the Land of Fruits & Nuts (California), much of our public hunting land is becoming lead-free. Responding to this I've decided to load up some 30-06 with Barnes TSX. My Speer loading manual doesn't have that specific bullet listed, and Barnes website doesn't have my powder's listed. I have some 4064 and some 4831. Powder is REALLY hard to get around here right now so I'd like to try to stick to what I have on hand. I loaded a few 150gr TSX with 49gr of 4064 and they were shooting about 5" low consistantly. I checked against some factory lead ammo that I had laying around and some lead reloads of mine and they were all threading needles at 100yd. Here's my question: Has anyone loaded a 150gr TSX in 30-06 with either of these powders and found a charge that works? I guess I could load up a bunch increasing the powder charge by 0.5gr until I find some that work but that gets expensive. If anyone has an answer or an innovative idea I'd love to hear it. Thanks.

April 24, 2009, 07:22 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,121	Welcome to the forum. Are these the flat base (#30820) or the BT (#30841) TSX bullets? What COL are you using. What cases and primers? What is your barrel twist rate? I show with the flat base TSX seated to 3.27" COL, with a military case, 51.5 grains of IMR4064 being a 2800 fps load. IMR4831 needs a compressed load of 57.5 grains to get there. Those bullets have higher starting pressures than jacketed lead, and they are long for their weight, requiring more twist than their shorter lead core counterparts. Five inches is a lot of drop, and makes it seem you must be in the middle of a harmonic downswing of your barrel with your current load. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 24, 2009, 08:52 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,121	I left my computer while dmazur posted, so this duplicates his comments with small variation. The usual way to handle the twist is to put a tight patch on your cleaning rod and put a pencil mark on the rod back near the handle and one on it by the muzzle. You run it in, letting it slip in your hands. When the upper mark has rotated one full turn, mark the rod next to the muzzle again. Withdraw the rod and measure the distance between the two marks made near the muzzle. While you're at it, with the breech closed, put the rod in until it touches down on the boltface and mark it at the muzzle again. Withdraw it and measure from the tip to the muzzle mark to find your actual barrel length. We can get some velocity and best barrel time estimates from that. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; April 24, 2009 at 08:59 PM.

April 25, 2009, 12:31 AM	#6
A_Gamehog Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2009 Location: Central Oregun Posts: 563	Quick questions for you: Was that IMR-Dupont 4831? Or Hodgdon H4831 big difference in those two as far as dangerous to confuse. The weight of the bullets that shot so well? can you take one apart with a set of pliers and weight it? Easy to duplicate if a known weight is a starting point. The brass has a headstamp for duplication/type also. I shoot 150 TSX and 180TSX with both H4831 and IMR 4831 different powder charge for both powders and bullets, many variables to be sure of. Both bullets handle more pressure than standard, always refer to Barnes' BOOK#4 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 150TSX IMR 4064 49.5-52.0 165TSX IMR 4064 46.5-50.0 180TSX IMR 4064 44.5-48.0* most accurate powder tested... 180TSX IMR 4831 53.0-56.5

April 25, 2009, 12:43 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,121	Good information. I think the South Africans first started with those rings, but I didn't have a sense of how much effect on start pressure they had. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 24, 2009, 07:46 PM	#3
Razorman Junior Member Join Date: April 24, 2009 Posts: 2	COAL: 3.218" over a fair variety of once-fired cases (mostly Federal nickle cases). The bullet is the BT (30841). I'm using WLR primers. I'm afraid I don't know the twist on the rifle, it was originally my grandfather's, who gave it to my dad, who gave it to my uncle, who gave it to my brother, who gave it to me. I love the rifle. I need to look down the barrel and count the twist, I guess. I was assuming the same thing about the harmonic drop as you were but I wasn't sure how to correct the issue. It was quite the shock to me to have it be so imprecise. Usually my pre-hunting season includes going to the range, firing three shots, chuckling in satisfaction and going home. I've never had this gun not make a clover on the bullseye at 100yd until the other day. I'm not accustomed to having to work to get this gun ready for a season (it's pig season in Cali). Of course, I've never shot all copper before. Thank you for the advice.

April 24, 2009, 08:04 PM	#4
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	I guess you could look down the barrel and count the turns over the entire barrel length...but there is another way that I believe might be easier - Get your cleaning rod and a tight patch on a jag tip. Put some masking tape on the cleaning rod near the handle. Mark "top" with a Sharpie. Measure from the tape to the end of the action (assuming cleaning a bolt-action.) Push the cleaning rod into the rifle. When the mark on the tape is "top" again, stop. Measure from the tape to the end of the action again. Difference between the two measurements is your twist rate. (1 in 10, 1 in 12, etc.) Whenever the ammo panic subsides, Hornady is offering "gilding metal" leadfree bullets that are supposed to have the same ballistics as their lead equivalents. That is, you can develop loads using SST's and then use GMX's for hunting. I'm not sure they are available at dealers now, but if they are, you might try a box of these... Last edited by dmazur; April 24, 2009 at 08:11 PM.

April 25, 2009, 08:13 AM	#7
10 Spot Terminator Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2008 Location: Central Oregon Posts: 348	Note the following when using the Barnes TSX or TTSX or MRX bullets only and the opposite applies to the older X bullets and solids,,, Due to the "ring and groove" make up of the bullet Barnes has stated if using reload data other than their own you can add 1 to 2 grains more powder to the starting as well as max load data . It was nearly 3 years after the TSX bullet was on the market before Barnes had printed data in a manual for these bullets and this was their "offical" reply if queried as to load data. I have used the TSX longer than most and in 3 seperate calibres and have found this to be accurate in that 2 of my favorite loads are running at appx. 1.5 grs. over the average max publised data from multiple reload sources without any high pressure signs . This increase in powder based on the design of the bullet is due to less load bearing surface metal of the bullet contacting the bore therefore equaling less pressure . Pressure is a key factor in load developement for any cartridge with a specific powder and in this case more powder is needed to achieve pressures equal to test results to duplicate the load data. DO NOT USE THIS FOR THE OLDER BARNES X OR SOLIDS !!! The gliding metal in those bullets were all notorious for being sticky and heavy barrel foulers . As a result the exact opposite was needed for load workup with these bullets in that data used from other sources than Barnes had to be reduced by 10% to be safe. On another note Barnes recommends longer bullet set back on seating with their recommendation being .050 and you can pretty much take that to the bank. The least amount of setback I have been able to get away with is .045 and the others are at .050 and .055 respectively . Would be intersted how your load tests work out and if you would be so kind as to post your follow up for us . All the best, 10 Spot

April 26, 2009, 03:10 AM	#9
Stick_man Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 241	Barnes support The TSX is a great bullet. Most of Barnes' bullets come with some loading data in the box, but I agree it is fairly limited. I have heard that if you contact Ty Herring at Barnes (I believe he is their main ballistician) he can get you pointed in the right direction. If you provide him with a few details about what you are wanting to do (cal., bullet weight, twist rate, powder desired, etc.), he can get things pretty close for you. Of course, you would still want to tweak the load to match up to your rifle. I have found Barnes to be very helpful. Also, their newest manual (#4) has data for the TSX. You could probably even get some load data off of their website.