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#1 | ||
member
Join Date: June 13, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
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Results of SCAR/HK416/M4/XM8 Dust Tests Released - M4 Loses Badly
First of all, my apologies for the source (Army Times and Matthew Cox, who apparently has never had a single bad thing to say about an HK product in his "journalism" career); but this was the first article I'd seen discussing results:
Quote:
239 mag related failures? That is more failures than any other rifle had by itself and they all (minus XM8) use the same magazine. There something unusual here. Unless the other rifles have a noticeably slower cyclic rate to allow marginal mags more time to function, I don't see how you can have that many mag related failures when all of the rifles (except the XM8) use the same mag. More Data (thanks to Ekie at AR15.com): Quote:
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#2 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 28, 2007
Posts: 3,266
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Would have been interesting if they'd included an AK as a control reference, and as an adversary/etc...thing. Even an Arsenal SLR if they wanted to be PC about it.
Though it'd look bad if it had few, if any, dust related stoppages. We know AKs work in dust-sand deserts. I've heard the challenges of the Iraqi sand described as "Dump a full bottle of baby powder on and in your rifle, shake it out, and see if it still works". Also, what happened to the Robinson XCR? Did they not kiss up to enough brass to even be considered for a trial? This, BTW, is why my SHTF rifle is a modified Saiga 5.56x45 NATO. I know it'll keep working even if I fumble it into dust, mud, water, whatever. |
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#3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 28, 2006
Location: Kalifornia
Posts: 727
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Do you think we are in a position where the "old school" army wants to keep a weapon platform they are familiar and comfortable with, even though there may be other platforms out there that are an improvement? Kind of like when the 03 Springfield went away or when the M16 was introduced, except the M16 is now the old school weapon of choice.
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#4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 26, 2005
Location: Orygun
Posts: 2,589
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I bet a G3 wouldn't have had any stoppages..... -tINY |
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#5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Posts: 348
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Even at the higher stoppage rate it was still just over 1% most would have been fixed instantly by using the charging handle. I would like to see if this test with the 416 and the M4 with improved magazines like the Pmag to see if it lowers the stoppage rates.
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#6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 16, 2004
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 5,333
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I agree. They should have had an AK chambered in 223 in there to provide a reference point. It would have been interesting to see how the AK held up to the other designs in those same conditions.
Personally, I believe the AK would have fared well, but who knows, I could be wrong.
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I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me. |
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#7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2007
Location: southcentral/southeastern PA
Posts: 375
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How's this idea: Instead of spending our tax money to fight wars in dusty Arab countries, how about we end that whole thing, bring the troops home, the weapons home, and most importantly, bring the ammo home and prepare to assert our authority in other places on this earth where we have a vested interest, like a little island a hop-skip-but-not-quite-a-jump from Miami...?
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#8 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: OCONUS 61°13′06″N 149°53′57″W
Posts: 2,282
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Quote:
But, I think it bears noting that Army Times and Matthew Cox aren't what I'd consider credible media outlets (at least not anymore), as Bartholomew Roberts noted in the first post in this thread. The possible replacements for the M4/M16 bring their own potential issues to the table with whatever pluses they carry. The XM8 clocking fewer stoppages in worst-case-dust scenarios is probably offset by the liability of it melting under sustained fire (as well as the loss of modularity compared to the M4/M16). My personal experience with HK 416s issued to my unit (and never mentioned by Matthew Cox while he's shaking his pom-poms for HK) is that the ones we have had trouble grouping inside 4 MOA shooting green tip when some guys put three examples through their paces (a USGI M4 used as a control in the test grouped right at 2 MOA with M855). SCAR, I haven't handled yet, so I'm not sure what it does better or worse than the 16/4. The only thing I've heard/read thus far is the same thing everyone else is probably aware of -- it's heavier, but I suspect that some weight could be saved off it if a simplified Big Army version dropped the bells and whistles off the stock (side folder, adjustable comb) in favor of a simplified M4 style collapsible stock. I suspect part of the weight issue is just the cost of doing business with a piston system, as the 416s feel kind of chunky compared to an M4 also. |
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#9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 29, 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 1,163
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#10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 10, 2007
Posts: 163
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Read "the Black Rifle" if you want to learn how to rig this kind of test.
Without an AK as a control, the test is worthless. Were the conditions so bad that any rifle would fail, or are all of these "carbines" a step backwards in reliability. Sounds like typical military-industrial complex BS to justify spending $. Want to see a real improvement in military rifles? Repeal (or overturn, Clarence Thomas wants to) NFA 1934; lets get a few thousand gun nut and inventors (most of whom are pretty nuts anyway) working on it. |
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#11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 26, 1999
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,056
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Well, I guess I can take the advice of all the internet experts who poo-pooed the XM-8 and file it in the trash. The XM-8 was, roughly 7x more reliable than the colt. The Scar and 416 were, rounding up, 4x more reliable. So, politics and "home cooking" screws our troops again.
LET THE EXCUSES BEGIN!!!
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Correct anwers to gun questions to save time... Carry: j-frame Home/combat: Hk P30 or Beretta 92G Doomsday: Colt 6920 with Aimpoint t-2 |
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#12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 16, 2004
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 5,333
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Another thing they didn't have is an M-16A2 or A4. The M-16 generally has fewer problems than the M4 because of the longer barrel length and better gas system timing.
__________________
I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me. |
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#13 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Posts: 348
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Quote:
The things I would be interested in would be how many of those stoppages were fixed with nothing more then yanking on the charging handle? And how it compares to the much vaunted AK? I know that in a ready to fire position the AK could have issues since it's mechanisms are exposed when the weapon is off of safe. |
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#14 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 26, 1999
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,056
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Quote:
__________________
Correct anwers to gun questions to save time... Carry: j-frame Home/combat: Hk P30 or Beretta 92G Doomsday: Colt 6920 with Aimpoint t-2 |
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#15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 6,126
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We don't have enough information from this test to make statistically valid comparison. Ten rifles of each type what was the failure rate for each, the average failure rate and the median failure etc.
While the difference between 882 and 127 is a pretty big number it still isn't that big of a difference compared to the 60,000 base. Once we see Tom Coburn's name involved the first thing we should do is follow the money. |
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#16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 26, 1999
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,056
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Yeah, especially the money that has been shielding Colt all these years. These are the politicians who you need to talk to...Senators Chris Dodd and Joe Lieberman, and Representatives Nancy Johnson, Christopher Shays, Rosa DeLauro, John Larson, and Rob Simmons. They got the XM-8 canned for Colt.
__________________
Correct anwers to gun questions to save time... Carry: j-frame Home/combat: Hk P30 or Beretta 92G Doomsday: Colt 6920 with Aimpoint t-2 |
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#17 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Posts: 348
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Quote:
XM8 0.21% SCAR-L 0.38% 416 0.39% M4 (Summer) 1.13% M4 (Winter) 1.47% To me that doesn't seem that signifigant considering that the dust chamber is possibly the worst enviroment that the rifle can be in, and that 1/4 of the failures were magazine related. If they switch to something like the Pmag, they should be able to take the failure rate under 1% which I think is the magic number as long as all the failures are fixable with a simple yank on the charging handle. I think that this should speed up the purchasing of either the SCAR-L or the 416 for people that need rifles shorter then 14.5" though. |
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#18 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 31, 2005
Posts: 1,380
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#19 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A.
Posts: 12,451
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If you read that article precisely, what we come away with is this:
In the summer test, the M4 stopped 307 times out of 60,000 rounds: a failure rate of 00.5%. In the winter test, the M4 stopped 882 times out of 6,000 rounds: a failure rate of 14.7% That's an order of magnitude of 28.8 times the stoppage rate, or 2,980% higher stoppage rate in the second test. When the results are nearly 3,000% off of what is supposed to be "similar" testing environments, that tells us that ONE or possibly BOTH of the tests are flawed in some way - there's just no way there should be that much of a radical difference in the results. From the foregoing, we conclude that it's an unsettled tie; there needs to be a third test done (preferably an INDEPENDENT one), to see which of the first two tests the results are closer to the newest results, and therefore, most likely to be believed as accurate/verified. The cynical side of me wonders which company Mr. Coburn has stock in or made a loan to: FN, HK, or what? |
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#20 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 28, 2007
Posts: 3,266
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I have to wonder how the Daewoo K2 would do in these tests, at that.
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#21 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A.
Posts: 12,451
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Exactly. Why are we re-inventing the wheel here, when the K1/K2 does the same thing? (doesn't it?)
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#22 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 28, 2007
Posts: 3,266
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Yes. The K2 uses AR magazines and some other AR parts, but ostensibly has the reliability of the AK, since it's a simple gas piston rifle.
But it's not part of the Inner Circle of manufacturers. Same with poor Robinson Arms, who seem to be destined to be the Tucker of carbines. Military purchasing is not at all a free market, not capitalism, it's favoritism and back-scratching and pork-barrel deals. And the only ones who suffer are the troops. The Pentagon will cry "Oh, but logistics!" Fine. Replace the M-16 and M-4 uppers with the new gas-piston uppers as they exceed their service life, keep the lowers, magazines and all other parts deployed. Just a bit of training to adapt. No different than changing the M-14's from wood stocks over to synthetic furniture and updated sights as they rotate. Oh, but Colt doesn't make a gas-piston upper, that's one of the second-tier makers? Oops! Must stay with direct impingement, then! So what if it's been proven to be not as suitable to a dust-sand desert as a piston rifle? Contra...er...Logistics! |
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#23 |
Member
Join Date: January 25, 2007
Posts: 96
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a little off topic but if you want to improve your AR get the ARES GSR-35 drop in piston system all it does is replace the gas tube, handguards, and bolt carrier with new one its a little pricey but well worth it
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#24 |
Junior member
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,171
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What I add to this is merely what I hear from the 1st of the 509th or whatever unit we have up here that just got back and throng this gun joint. Not scientific, not a representative sample, blah blah...
1. No reports of M4 failures by anyone (which is meaningless I suppose) 2. Biggest M4 complaints is little bullet, beat to crap examples and "all we do is clean the F**** things" 3. Biggest M4 kudos...easy for vehicle mounting and room clearing Guys who get the M14 love it except its heavy (especially with the Sage) and sucks for vehicles and room cleaning. Seems to me the Army is doing the same as it always does since 1941,,,some folks in a small unit get light calibers (Thompson/K/Carbine/M4), some get mediums (Garand/M14), some get squad LMGs (BAR/M60/M249). But anyway, the endless debate over M4 vis a vis SCARS and whatnot is amusing. Me...gimme an Enfield ![]() WildpippipcheerioAlaska ™ |
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#25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 28, 2004
Posts: 1,784
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Maybe because I'm an engineer's engineer with a hyperactive desire to "improve everything", but who DIDN'T predict this outcome??? A gas piston design is THE way to go. No one with ANY engineering background would disagree. It's kinda like a Porsche 997 GT3RS. Phenomenal package; does everything well. But if Porsche could start with a clean slate their cars would be mid-engined not rear engined. They've admitted same with the Cayman. Can we do the same with the AR-15 Platform?
I agree wit bringing our troops home, but let's not bother any nation that's not bothering us. Just look at out porous borders (can you say Mexico and Canada? I thought so). Our issues are about to become INTERNAL and they should be addressed immediately. Just my two cents on that matter. For those who disagree check out our National Security Strategy from 1999 and 2000. You can find them as .pdfs online.
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"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783 |
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