12 Ga Reloading Questions

Edward429451 · September 2, 2007, 02:47 PM

I did some horse trading and aquired me a MEC Grabber press in 12 ga and got it all cleaned up and mounted yesterday. I have no data, no books, but do have componants, so am looking for any useful info on just what I have and am getting into.

I cranked out three shells just to see what the other owner of the press was loading, and to familierize myself with its operation. It came loaded with what is obviously RedDot and #9's.

Critique this load:

Win AA hulls
AA wads (white)
18.0 gr Reddot
496 gr #9
CCI 209 primers

Is this just a light skeet load?

There was also some AA red wads, which are slightly shorter than the white wads and didn't crimp up nice so are obviously for another load, what application are the red wads for?

What is the definitive shotshell loading book I should get?
Powder recommendations?
Primers?
Which slug mould?
Circular crimper source for the slugs?
Anything I missed or should watch out for?

Thx.

lockedcj7 · September 2, 2007, 05:13 PM

According to the Alliant data on their website, that is a 1 1/8 oz., 3 dram equivalent load at 1200 fps. They show that load using a Win. 209 primer, however.

I would say it's a good field load for doves, quail, etc. The Lyman shotshell reloading handbook is my go-to source other than the powder company websites. Check them out.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/
http://www.hodgdon.com/

I personally like Titewad for 12 ga. and Green Dot for 20 ga. The red wads could be Winchester wads for 1 1/4 oz. loads (WWAA12R) or Hornady Versalite.

Edward429451 · September 2, 2007, 07:58 PM

Thanks.

Do you think I should not use those loads because of the primer subsitution? From what little I've read about shotshell loading the recipes are carved in stone and no subsitution whatsoever should be done.

I'm trying to get a feel for this before I go out and buy more primers & powder. This is not at all like rifle & pistol cartridge loading and I feel like a total noob with it.

only the one powder bushing came with it a #33, and extra charge bar came with but I don't know yet what wt it throws. Prolly 1-1/4 for the red wads.

No mention of shot sizes are given, only wt, so would it be an accurate statement to say shot size is irrevelant to the load as long as the wt is correct?

cobra81 · September 2, 2007, 08:11 PM

MEC charge bars have their shot charge volume engraved on one end. If your extra charge bar is for 1 1/4 oz. loads, it will be engraved "114."

You're going to need some more powder bushings, or an adjustable charge bar.

Red Dot is fine, but I like Clays and E3 better because they burn cleaner.

I use #9 shot for skeet loads. #7 1/2 for trap, sporting clays and dove.

crowbeaner · September 2, 2007, 08:36 PM

If you get the IMR guides from the late 80s and the 90s you will find some very good loads for your 12 and 20. I use the Lee slug and the data from the insert with the mould. Different loads must be used exactly as shown to get the results and safe pressures listed in the reloaders guide. If I have any doubts I contact the mfg. and ask. The Lyman shotshell guide is a good reference but I stick with the mfg. guides unless the Lyman book shows a lower powder charge and then I go with the Lyman book. The roll crimp tool is available from Mec I think. I have one somewhere but I've never used it. I also have the changeover for the loader to load 20s, but again I haven't changed over yet. The WAA12R is for 11/4 oz and heavier loads in some hulls. I use them in the Fed Hi power and slug hulls with the rolled paper base wad. I use SR4756 for heavy field loads and GreenDot for heavy trap loads. Red Dot is OK but I prefer other powders. IMR 700X is also good but quite high pressure in heavier loads; that's why I use GD. I use Fed GM, WW AA ,and RP Premier hulls for trap and slug loads, and Fed HP and RP high base SP hulls for field loads. Best load I have is Rem. hi base SP 2 3/4 inch hull, WW 209 primer, RP 12 wad, SR 4756 33.0 gr., and 1 1/4 oz Lawrence Magnum shot in#2,4,5,and 6 sizes. 1330 fps and it knocks birds sideways at 50 yards. I can hit and down crows at 70 yds. with an extra full turkey choke. I load the heavier shot loads in the GM hulls. Hope this helps. Enjoy. CB

Edward429451 · September 2, 2007, 08:40 PM

Thats good info. One charge bar is marked 502-118 and the other charge bar is marked 302-118. What's the diff between the 302 & 502?

How good does the adjustable charge bars work, and are they adjustable only for the shot charge, i.e. will I still need more powder bushings?

What wold be a good selection of bushings to get which would allow me to load pert near anything from superlite to heavyfield and slugs?

lockedcj7 · September 2, 2007, 08:58 PM

Before I knew better, I substituted hulls and primers all the time. I didn't see anything that made me worry. No difficult extraction (with a pump and SxS), no flattened primers, no blown primer pockets, no excessive recoil, nothing. I don't do it any more and I was well under max.

As long as the shot meters smoothly, size doesn't matter. I used one recipe for years because it was all I needed. 90% of my shooting was doves and skeet. For the other 10%, it made more sense to buy shells than work up another load. If all you want is a good, all-purpose load, I think you've got it. If you want to play around with a million different combinations, you will need more powder bushings and charge bars.

I just checked the Lyman book and it has your load with CCI 209 primer and 19 grains of Red Dot. so I think you're fine with 18.

crowbeaner · September 2, 2007, 09:22 PM

You should get the mfg. powder gudes; most will have the approximate charge that the bushing will drop but you have to check each one with a scale to see just what they throw. The bushings are $1.99 at Gander Mtn., and you may have to get the next smaller one and the next larger one and tweak them with a strip of fine sandpaper to get them to throw the exact powder charge you want. If I'm loading max. field loads or very heavy trap loads I throw the powder charge with the RCBS Uniflow to get the absolute accuracy in the charge. This also keeps the shot to shot variation to a minimum; I also use the measure when I'm loading the slug loads because of the very heavy charges used. Most of the mfg. guides have the bushing info. for Mec and Hornady. Make sure you move the charge bar back and forth firmly to get the same "feel" through the bushing. The difference in the # on the shot bar maybe the lack of or addition of the plastic insert to make cutting the shot charge easier. The older shot bars did not have the insert and can be hard to cycle with larger shot sizes, especially when it is 1 1/4 and heavier. CB.

Edward429451 · September 2, 2007, 10:27 PM

I found a lot of good info on manufacturers sites as well as MEC's but not any info on hull brand & wad type compatability. I have a rainbow selection of hulls, and only WAA12 & WAA12R wads. Is there a compatibility chart somewhere?

Even the AA hulls are a little confusing. Some are marked AA, some AA Plus, some lite, superlite, heavy...Are these all considered AA for all practical purposes or to be treated as different types of hulls?

crowbeaner · September 2, 2007, 10:54 PM

As long as the hull says AA on it you load them the same. The markings are for the shooter to make sure the load is what they need for the type of shooting they are doing. The new silver AAs are the heavy sporting clays load and they go out about 1300 or better. Good load; too bad they don't load it with # 6 so I can shoot off the shelf stuff instead of having to load them. Get the mfg. data as well as the Lyman book. the more combos you have access to the more you can save if the components are available locally; no hazmat ripoff to pay and sometimes you can get a deal on powder if the gun dealer has a big powder order that somebody reneges on. Different mfgs. use different components and if you have a variety you can really tailor your loads for the scattergun; they have likes and dislikes just like any other gun. Only the pattern board knows for sure. Hope this helps. CB.

cobra81 · September 3, 2007, 12:31 AM

The charge bar marked 502 is for use in a progressive MEC press, and the 302 is for the single stage presses.

cobra81 · September 3, 2007, 12:57 AM

BTW, the new AA HS hulls are NOT the same as the older AA hulls. The older ones are a 2-piece, compression formed hull; the newer HS's are a 3-piece assembled hull with a deeper base wad that you can see with a flashlight and feel with your finger.

I load them in both 12 and 28 gauge, and to get a properly crimped shell, you need to check your manual carefully for powder, wad, and pressures. I have found Win AA HS 28 gauge wads made especially for the HS hull, and they produce a much better looking finished shell than HS hulls I loaded with other type wads I've used in the older 2-piece AA's.

The capacity of the HS hull is a little less than the older AA hull, and I think the different base affects pressures. FWIW, I have had better luck getting the older 12 gauge AA's (both red and gray) to crimp than the new HS's, even after repeated firings. Just haven't found the right combination yet.

One of these days they'll wear out, but I bought thousands of the old ones whenever I could find them, and now I'm glad I did.

Edward429451 · September 4, 2007, 11:51 PM

Hey, thanks guys. That's some good info here and the manufacturer sites too. Just the info I'm lookin for. I feel like the clouds are clearing. I loaded the other 10 (all the primers I had) and can't wait to shoot them. The crimps came out absolutely perfect. That's a sweetheart press, that grabber.

I have all my AA's segregated, only a few silver ones. I know some of those other wads are good but how to positively ID them against the data? The hull designations in the data aren't necessarily on the hulls themselves.

I can't find any slug data either. Or slug wads. I cut open a factory slug and the wad is just like a plastic cylinder. Lee's slug mould looks ok but IIRC Lyman makes a full size slug mould so I expect to try both over time and see which shoots better.

Do you guys know a source for slug wads and recipes?

crowbeaner · September 5, 2007, 08:51 PM

The Lyman Shotshell handbook has some data for the Lyman sabot slug, their Foster type slug, and the Lee key drive in the newest edition I've been told. I have to clear the purchase with the CFO on payday this month. The book should have the wad requirements with the data. Ballistic Products may have slug wads and card wads to load with. Check with Midway- I don't have the master catalog and they may have some stuff. Sure would be nice if Federal would sell the plastic wad they use in their Foster slug load to the public. Don't overlook the Lee slug; I've had pretty good results so far and the data with the mould is pretty good but you may want to try some choke with certain loads as the guns I have to work with all have different diameters in their barrels, and that alone is skewing the results somewhat. Hope this helps. Enjoy. CB.

Edward429451 · September 7, 2007, 11:00 AM

I found the new 5th Ed. Lyman book locally. It has a hull ID section right in the front. 1K WIn 209's and a LB of Clays & a box of 00's so I think I'm set for now. Shot's up to almost 45 bucks a bag

Luckily I have almost 50 LBs of #9's and some 8's & 4's too.

I've had good luck with foster type slugs in my SG so I will work that direction over time. Crowbeaner, if you find your circular crimper I'd buy it or swap you something for it. I wouldn't mind trying out some of those Lee slugs too. I could swap you some other cast boolits for a handful. I have a slew of 44 moulds, a few 45/70 moulds, 38's, 45's...If that sounds like something you'd like to do let me know what you might be interested in and I'll swap ya even up on weight. PM me and lemmee know. If not, thanks for the info you provided!

crowbeaner · September 7, 2007, 11:08 PM

The Lee mould is $18 plus shipping from Midsouth Shooters Supply. I have all the cast bullets I'll never use, thanks. Glad the grey matter could be of use. Shot prices are ridiculous. Just a few years back I paid $20 a bag for it. Can anyone say GOUGING? Sure makes me wish I'd bought a bunch back then. If anyone is following this thread I need to know if the older RP target hull with the load description running in a circle paralell to the rim has the same internal dimensions as the new STS hull. RP has this enervating habit of changing the name and/or the target hull every few years, and it RRREEEAAALLLLLLYYY annoys me. Thanks. CB.

crowbeaner · September 7, 2007, 11:12 PM

OOPS. Forgot. I'll look for the roll crimp die and IF I can find it I'll PM you. No guarantee I can find it. I have this bad habit of putting stuff up for a rainy day and I forget which rainy day it is. That, and the fact I collect stuff just to have it if I EVER need it!

Edward429451 · September 9, 2007, 02:28 PM

18 bucks? Thats better than the 25 Lee direct wants. Thanks. I loaded seven rounds of those Rem hulls last night as if they were STS hulls because everything matched what the book said except the actual STS designation so if I missed on that one I'd sure appreciate the clarification on that also.

crowbeaner · September 9, 2007, 08:54 PM

I sent an email to IMR to find out if there are any differences, but haven't gotten a reply yet. My loading bench is 30 miles from here and the CFO says I have to wait to plan a trip there. This $3 a gallon bovine scat is really crimping life for some of us with limited means, brother. I loaded some of the AA hulls I had with WW 209 and 38.5 of AA#5 with the WWAA12SL wad and the Lee slug. The 1100 shoots this load like gangbusters, and I hope the springoff lets the air out of a deer this year with it. The load with 34.0 of Herco and the WAA12 wad is another good one. The old A5 likes that one. I don't have any Blue Dot to try, so you are on your own with that load. 49.0 is a hefty charge, and I still like the man in the mirror so I'll stick with what I have for now. Anything else I can help with, let me know. My $0.02. Enjoy. CB.

Edward429451 · September 10, 2007, 10:28 AM

Uh oh. I seen STS Premier hulls for sale at BPI last night. I'm bettin these other remington hulls are no good for reloading. Good thing I only loaded 7 of them. I'll wait until you get a reply to your e mail and it's official before cutting them open to salvage the shot & wads.

Apparently I've been saving junk hulls for a long time. Even the Federal gameload hulls arent listed in data anywhere. I think I'm just gonna order some from BPI so there's no question.

cdoc42 · September 10, 2007, 01:52 PM

If you've never done it, cut the various hulls in half, length-wise, to get a better look at the internal construction. That'll instantly tell you which are like Win AA and others. The base wad is what causes the need for different types of wads. I've been collecting cases for 30 years and have finally decided it's not worth all the experimentation. Just stick with AA and a 1-1/8oz load unless you need something special for Turkeys or other game. I used the Win AA case for 1-1/4oz load with Blue Dot for turkeys and it works just fine. That's where I used the short red wad you've been talking about.

crowbeaner · September 10, 2007, 02:15 PM

I think the Federal Game loads are with the older data from IMR (DuPont) around 1980 to 86. I still have some and I have the data, but not here; it's at the bench. They have the rolled paper basewad, and the data usually says to load them like the Hi Power hulls. The Fed. slugs still use the same rolled base wad, but I check them all before loading to be sure. (at least the F127 RS). The problem I see is the mfg. data doesn't list all hulls and load combos for the high stepping loads above 1250 fps. for trap hulls. You have to get the booklets and see what they list. The 2007 Hodgdon booklet only shows high speed loads for 1 brand of hull, not all 3 that I use. The Fed. hulls with the paper base wad work just fine, but the wad shoots loose after 3 or 4 heavy loads making them unusable. I used to load the high base hull with 37.0 of SR 4756, Fed 209 (NOT 209A), WWAA12R, and 1 1/4 oz hard (Lawrence) shot. Really good load for bigger shot sizes (BB,2,4). The older Lyman Shotshell handbooks MIGHT have the data for the Game load hull, but don't count on it. Most books don't list the Fed. hull with the paper wad anymore; must be they figure we just throw them away. I've been loading shotshells for 35 years and I seldom throw once fired hulls away, especially if I paid for the shells over the counter. Hope this helps. Enjoy. CB.

Edward429451 · September 14, 2007, 09:34 PM

Eh it took a few days but I found some info shining light on the this weirdo hull business. I almost tossed most of my hulls intending on just buying new ones from BPI, glad I didn't. From Hercules 1991 reloaders guide...

Special notes regarding components other than powder
A. Shotgun Shells
Manufacturers may sell ammunition under different brand names that are identical for reloading purposes. Following are popular variations. When in doubt, consult the ammunition producer.

Federal Hi Power Plastic same as Duck & Pheasant, Field, Game, and Dove & Squirrel, or Top Gun.
Federal Premium (Integral base wad).
Remington-Peters same as Mohawk brand shells.
Winchester AA-Type (compression formed) same as AA Target, Upland, and Super Double X.
Winchester Polyformed Type (Reifenhauser Tube) same as Duck & Pheasant, Dove & Squirrell, and Sears brand. /end

I cut a bunch open to compare them as one poster suggested and comparing the hulls with the data, the light began to shine. The green remington hulls that I thought must be STS hulls are not, but are reloadable with a slight powder charge decrease.

The AA hulls stand alone as we know but I have Upland hulls, and a mess of (WW) Dove & Quail hulls. The (1991) data shows the (Upland/Dove & Squirrell) Win Polyformed with plastic basewad being loaded hotter than the AA hulls and the AA's have a higher capacity. In other words, I can reload them.

The Federal Game load hulls with paper base wads are certainly reloadable which is good cuz I have a lot of them.

The Fiocci hulls I was most impressed with. They have a really robust looking wad in them and are what I will order from BP.

crowbeaner · September 14, 2007, 11:22 PM

I made it to the bench yesterday and looked for the roll crimp die; it's among the missing or mislaid. The data in the 1986 Dupont guide has data for the Fed. hulls. I brought the Lyman#4 book home to see what I need to load Foster slugs in my A5. I have to get the mould sometime and cast a bunch. I have about 100 high base Fed. hulls with the rolled base wad, and they're what I'm going to try the Foster loads in. I copied some loads with that hull, but if you have the Lyman book you will have them. Hope this helps, and load safe. I'm still looking for that die again. I hate misplacing stuff. Anything else I can help with, let me know. Enjoy. CB.

rugerdude29 · September 15, 2007, 02:43 PM

Since I started reloading shotshells, the hulls I come across most often are Win. AA and polyformed, Rem. STS/Premier and Unibody SP, and Fed. Hi-Power type and One-Piece.

Unless I am greatly mistaken, when Winchester redesigned their AA hulls a few years ago, they kept the internal volume the same so that all AA hulls would still use the same recipes. I have reloaded many of the newer hulls using older recipes and they show no more difference over the chrony than I am used to. The polyformed hulls most always have a 6-point crimp and you can see a seperate white basewad in the bottom of the hull. Regardless of the crimp, if the base wad is a seperate piece, then the recipe used will be the one for polyformed hulls.

For Rem. hulls, if the hull is shiny and looks kind of metallic, it is STS/Premier. If it is dull green, blue, or black, it is the Unibody SP. Both types of hulls are one piece, but they will use different recipes.

For Fed. hulls, I have mostly seen the Hi-Power type. These are used for most of the cheaper loads that you see on sale at various retailers. They will have a paper basewad. You can see it easily when you look down into the hull. The Federal One-Piece hulls I have not had much experience with, but I can tell you that the recipe is a bit different and they last longer before developing cracks.

If ever in doubt about a hull, contact the manufacturer. They can tell you what family the hull belongs to. If you want a manual for your press, contact

http://www.precisionreloading.com

They are a great source for shotshell reloading supplies and components. Hope I may have helped some.

September 2, 2007, 02:47 PM	#1
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	12 Ga Reloading Questions I did some horse trading and aquired me a MEC Grabber press in 12 ga and got it all cleaned up and mounted yesterday. I have no data, no books, but do have componants, so am looking for any useful info on just what I have and am getting into. I cranked out three shells just to see what the other owner of the press was loading, and to familierize myself with its operation. It came loaded with what is obviously RedDot and #9's. Critique this load: Win AA hulls AA wads (white) 18.0 gr Reddot 496 gr #9 CCI 209 primers Is this just a light skeet load? There was also some AA red wads, which are slightly shorter than the white wads and didn't crimp up nice so are obviously for another load, what application are the red wads for? What is the definitive shotshell loading book I should get? Powder recommendations? Primers? Which slug mould? Circular crimper source for the slugs? Anything I missed or should watch out for? Thx.

September 7, 2007, 11:00 AM	#15
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I found the new 5th Ed. Lyman book locally. It has a hull ID section right in the front. 1K WIn 209's and a LB of Clays & a box of 00's so I think I'm set for now. Shot's up to almost 45 bucks a bagLuckily I have almost 50 LBs of #9's and some 8's & 4's too. I've had good luck with foster type slugs in my SG so I will work that direction over time. Crowbeaner, if you find your circular crimper I'd buy it or swap you something for it. I wouldn't mind trying out some of those Lee slugs too. I could swap you some other cast boolits for a handful. I have a slew of 44 moulds, a few 45/70 moulds, 38's, 45's...If that sounds like something you'd like to do let me know what you might be interested in and I'll swap ya even up on weight. PM me and lemmee know. If not, thanks for the info you provided!

September 2, 2007, 05:13 PM	#2
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	According to the Alliant data on their website, that is a 1 1/8 oz., 3 dram equivalent load at 1200 fps. They show that load using a Win. 209 primer, however. I would say it's a good field load for doves, quail, etc. The Lyman shotshell reloading handbook is my go-to source other than the powder company websites. Check them out. http://www.alliantpowder.com/ http://www.hodgdon.com/ I personally like Titewad for 12 ga. and Green Dot for 20 ga. The red wads could be Winchester wads for 1 1/4 oz. loads (WWAA12R) or Hornady Versalite. __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

September 2, 2007, 07:58 PM	#3
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Thanks. Do you think I should not use those loads because of the primer subsitution? From what little I've read about shotshell loading the recipes are carved in stone and no subsitution whatsoever should be done. I'm trying to get a feel for this before I go out and buy more primers & powder. This is not at all like rifle & pistol cartridge loading and I feel like a total noob with it. only the one powder bushing came with it a #33, and extra charge bar came with but I don't know yet what wt it throws. Prolly 1-1/4 for the red wads. No mention of shot sizes are given, only wt, so would it be an accurate statement to say shot size is irrevelant to the load as long as the wt is correct?

September 2, 2007, 08:11 PM	#4
cobra81 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 336	MEC charge bars have their shot charge volume engraved on one end. If your extra charge bar is for 1 1/4 oz. loads, it will be engraved "114." You're going to need some more powder bushings, or an adjustable charge bar. Red Dot is fine, but I like Clays and E3 better because they burn cleaner. I use #9 shot for skeet loads. #7 1/2 for trap, sporting clays and dove.

September 2, 2007, 08:36 PM	#5
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	If you get the IMR guides from the late 80s and the 90s you will find some very good loads for your 12 and 20. I use the Lee slug and the data from the insert with the mould. Different loads must be used exactly as shown to get the results and safe pressures listed in the reloaders guide. If I have any doubts I contact the mfg. and ask. The Lyman shotshell guide is a good reference but I stick with the mfg. guides unless the Lyman book shows a lower powder charge and then I go with the Lyman book. The roll crimp tool is available from Mec I think. I have one somewhere but I've never used it. I also have the changeover for the loader to load 20s, but again I haven't changed over yet. The WAA12R is for 11/4 oz and heavier loads in some hulls. I use them in the Fed Hi power and slug hulls with the rolled paper base wad. I use SR4756 for heavy field loads and GreenDot for heavy trap loads. Red Dot is OK but I prefer other powders. IMR 700X is also good but quite high pressure in heavier loads; that's why I use GD. I use Fed GM, WW AA ,and RP Premier hulls for trap and slug loads, and Fed HP and RP high base SP hulls for field loads. Best load I have is Rem. hi base SP 2 3/4 inch hull, WW 209 primer, RP 12 wad, SR 4756 33.0 gr., and 1 1/4 oz Lawrence Magnum shot in#2,4,5,and 6 sizes. 1330 fps and it knocks birds sideways at 50 yards. I can hit and down crows at 70 yds. with an extra full turkey choke. I load the heavier shot loads in the GM hulls. Hope this helps. Enjoy. CB

September 2, 2007, 08:40 PM	#6
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Thats good info. One charge bar is marked 502-118 and the other charge bar is marked 302-118. What's the diff between the 302 & 502? How good does the adjustable charge bars work, and are they adjustable only for the shot charge, i.e. will I still need more powder bushings? What wold be a good selection of bushings to get which would allow me to load pert near anything from superlite to heavyfield and slugs?

September 2, 2007, 08:58 PM	#7
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	Before I knew better, I substituted hulls and primers all the time. I didn't see anything that made me worry. No difficult extraction (with a pump and SxS), no flattened primers, no blown primer pockets, no excessive recoil, nothing. I don't do it any more and I was well under max. As long as the shot meters smoothly, size doesn't matter. I used one recipe for years because it was all I needed. 90% of my shooting was doves and skeet. For the other 10%, it made more sense to buy shells than work up another load. If all you want is a good, all-purpose load, I think you've got it. If you want to play around with a million different combinations, you will need more powder bushings and charge bars. I just checked the Lyman book and it has your load with CCI 209 primer and 19 grains of Red Dot. so I think you're fine with 18. __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

September 2, 2007, 09:22 PM	#8
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	You should get the mfg. powder gudes; most will have the approximate charge that the bushing will drop but you have to check each one with a scale to see just what they throw. The bushings are $1.99 at Gander Mtn., and you may have to get the next smaller one and the next larger one and tweak them with a strip of fine sandpaper to get them to throw the exact powder charge you want. If I'm loading max. field loads or very heavy trap loads I throw the powder charge with the RCBS Uniflow to get the absolute accuracy in the charge. This also keeps the shot to shot variation to a minimum; I also use the measure when I'm loading the slug loads because of the very heavy charges used. Most of the mfg. guides have the bushing info. for Mec and Hornady. Make sure you move the charge bar back and forth firmly to get the same "feel" through the bushing. The difference in the # on the shot bar maybe the lack of or addition of the plastic insert to make cutting the shot charge easier. The older shot bars did not have the insert and can be hard to cycle with larger shot sizes, especially when it is 1 1/4 and heavier. CB.

September 2, 2007, 10:27 PM	#9
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I found a lot of good info on manufacturers sites as well as MEC's but not any info on hull brand & wad type compatability. I have a rainbow selection of hulls, and only WAA12 & WAA12R wads. Is there a compatibility chart somewhere? Even the AA hulls are a little confusing. Some are marked AA, some AA Plus, some lite, superlite, heavy...Are these all considered AA for all practical purposes or to be treated as different types of hulls?

September 2, 2007, 10:54 PM	#10
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	As long as the hull says AA on it you load them the same. The markings are for the shooter to make sure the load is what they need for the type of shooting they are doing. The new silver AAs are the heavy sporting clays load and they go out about 1300 or better. Good load; too bad they don't load it with # 6 so I can shoot off the shelf stuff instead of having to load them. Get the mfg. data as well as the Lyman book. the more combos you have access to the more you can save if the components are available locally; no hazmat ripoff to pay and sometimes you can get a deal on powder if the gun dealer has a big powder order that somebody reneges on. Different mfgs. use different components and if you have a variety you can really tailor your loads for the scattergun; they have likes and dislikes just like any other gun. Only the pattern board knows for sure. Hope this helps. CB.

September 3, 2007, 12:31 AM	#11
cobra81 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 336	The charge bar marked 502 is for use in a progressive MEC press, and the 302 is for the single stage presses.

September 3, 2007, 12:57 AM	#12
cobra81 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 336	BTW, the new AA HS hulls are NOT the same as the older AA hulls. The older ones are a 2-piece, compression formed hull; the newer HS's are a 3-piece assembled hull with a deeper base wad that you can see with a flashlight and feel with your finger. I load them in both 12 and 28 gauge, and to get a properly crimped shell, you need to check your manual carefully for powder, wad, and pressures. I have found Win AA HS 28 gauge wads made especially for the HS hull, and they produce a much better looking finished shell than HS hulls I loaded with other type wads I've used in the older 2-piece AA's. The capacity of the HS hull is a little less than the older AA hull, and I think the different base affects pressures. FWIW, I have had better luck getting the older 12 gauge AA's (both red and gray) to crimp than the new HS's, even after repeated firings. Just haven't found the right combination yet. One of these days they'll wear out, but I bought thousands of the old ones whenever I could find them, and now I'm glad I did.

September 4, 2007, 11:51 PM	#13
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Hey, thanks guys. That's some good info here and the manufacturer sites too. Just the info I'm lookin for. I feel like the clouds are clearing. I loaded the other 10 (all the primers I had) and can't wait to shoot them. The crimps came out absolutely perfect. That's a sweetheart press, that grabber. I have all my AA's segregated, only a few silver ones. I know some of those other wads are good but how to positively ID them against the data? The hull designations in the data aren't necessarily on the hulls themselves. I can't find any slug data either. Or slug wads. I cut open a factory slug and the wad is just like a plastic cylinder. Lee's slug mould looks ok but IIRC Lyman makes a full size slug mould so I expect to try both over time and see which shoots better. Do you guys know a source for slug wads and recipes?

September 5, 2007, 08:51 PM	#14
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	The Lyman Shotshell handbook has some data for the Lyman sabot slug, their Foster type slug, and the Lee key drive in the newest edition I've been told. I have to clear the purchase with the CFO on payday this month. The book should have the wad requirements with the data. Ballistic Products may have slug wads and card wads to load with. Check with Midway- I don't have the master catalog and they may have some stuff. Sure would be nice if Federal would sell the plastic wad they use in their Foster slug load to the public. Don't overlook the Lee slug; I've had pretty good results so far and the data with the mould is pretty good but you may want to try some choke with certain loads as the guns I have to work with all have different diameters in their barrels, and that alone is skewing the results somewhat. Hope this helps. Enjoy. CB.

September 7, 2007, 11:08 PM	#16
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	The Lee mould is $18 plus shipping from Midsouth Shooters Supply. I have all the cast bullets I'll never use, thanks. Glad the grey matter could be of use. Shot prices are ridiculous. Just a few years back I paid $20 a bag for it. Can anyone say GOUGING? Sure makes me wish I'd bought a bunch back then. If anyone is following this thread I need to know if the older RP target hull with the load description running in a circle paralell to the rim has the same internal dimensions as the new STS hull. RP has this enervating habit of changing the name and/or the target hull every few years, and it RRREEEAAALLLLLLYYY annoys me. Thanks. CB.

September 7, 2007, 11:12 PM	#17
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	OOPS. Forgot. I'll look for the roll crimp die and IF I can find it I'll PM you. No guarantee I can find it. I have this bad habit of putting stuff up for a rainy day and I forget which rainy day it is. That, and the fact I collect stuff just to have it if I EVER need it!

September 9, 2007, 02:28 PM	#18
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	18 bucks? Thats better than the 25 Lee direct wants. Thanks. I loaded seven rounds of those Rem hulls last night as if they were STS hulls because everything matched what the book said except the actual STS designation so if I missed on that one I'd sure appreciate the clarification on that also.

September 9, 2007, 08:54 PM	#19
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	I sent an email to IMR to find out if there are any differences, but haven't gotten a reply yet. My loading bench is 30 miles from here and the CFO says I have to wait to plan a trip there. This $3 a gallon bovine scat is really crimping life for some of us with limited means, brother. I loaded some of the AA hulls I had with WW 209 and 38.5 of AA#5 with the WWAA12SL wad and the Lee slug. The 1100 shoots this load like gangbusters, and I hope the springoff lets the air out of a deer this year with it. The load with 34.0 of Herco and the WAA12 wad is another good one. The old A5 likes that one. I don't have any Blue Dot to try, so you are on your own with that load. 49.0 is a hefty charge, and I still like the man in the mirror so I'll stick with what I have for now. Anything else I can help with, let me know. My $0.02. Enjoy. CB.

September 10, 2007, 10:28 AM	#20
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Uh oh. I seen STS Premier hulls for sale at BPI last night. I'm bettin these other remington hulls are no good for reloading. Good thing I only loaded 7 of them. I'll wait until you get a reply to your e mail and it's official before cutting them open to salvage the shot & wads. Apparently I've been saving junk hulls for a long time. Even the Federal gameload hulls arent listed in data anywhere. I think I'm just gonna order some from BPI so there's no question.

September 10, 2007, 01:52 PM	#21
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,772	If you've never done it, cut the various hulls in half, length-wise, to get a better look at the internal construction. That'll instantly tell you which are like Win AA and others. The base wad is what causes the need for different types of wads. I've been collecting cases for 30 years and have finally decided it's not worth all the experimentation. Just stick with AA and a 1-1/8oz load unless you need something special for Turkeys or other game. I used the Win AA case for 1-1/4oz load with Blue Dot for turkeys and it works just fine. That's where I used the short red wad you've been talking about.

September 10, 2007, 02:15 PM	#22
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	I think the Federal Game loads are with the older data from IMR (DuPont) around 1980 to 86. I still have some and I have the data, but not here; it's at the bench. They have the rolled paper basewad, and the data usually says to load them like the Hi Power hulls. The Fed. slugs still use the same rolled base wad, but I check them all before loading to be sure. (at least the F127 RS). The problem I see is the mfg. data doesn't list all hulls and load combos for the high stepping loads above 1250 fps. for trap hulls. You have to get the booklets and see what they list. The 2007 Hodgdon booklet only shows high speed loads for 1 brand of hull, not all 3 that I use. The Fed. hulls with the paper base wad work just fine, but the wad shoots loose after 3 or 4 heavy loads making them unusable. I used to load the high base hull with 37.0 of SR 4756, Fed 209 (NOT 209A), WWAA12R, and 1 1/4 oz hard (Lawrence) shot. Really good load for bigger shot sizes (BB,2,4). The older Lyman Shotshell handbooks MIGHT have the data for the Game load hull, but don't count on it. Most books don't list the Fed. hull with the paper wad anymore; must be they figure we just throw them away. I've been loading shotshells for 35 years and I seldom throw once fired hulls away, especially if I paid for the shells over the counter. Hope this helps. Enjoy. CB.

September 14, 2007, 09:34 PM	#23
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Eh it took a few days but I found some info shining light on the this weirdo hull business. I almost tossed most of my hulls intending on just buying new ones from BPI, glad I didn't. From Hercules 1991 reloaders guide... Special notes regarding components other than powder A. Shotgun Shells Manufacturers may sell ammunition under different brand names that are identical for reloading purposes. Following are popular variations. When in doubt, consult the ammunition producer. Federal Hi Power Plastic same as Duck & Pheasant, Field, Game, and Dove & Squirrel, or Top Gun. Federal Premium (Integral base wad). Remington-Peters same as Mohawk brand shells. Winchester AA-Type (compression formed) same as AA Target, Upland, and Super Double X. Winchester Polyformed Type (Reifenhauser Tube) same as Duck & Pheasant, Dove & Squirrell, and Sears brand. /end I cut a bunch open to compare them as one poster suggested and comparing the hulls with the data, the light began to shine. The green remington hulls that I thought must be STS hulls are not, but are reloadable with a slight powder charge decrease. The AA hulls stand alone as we know but I have Upland hulls, and a mess of (WW) Dove & Quail hulls. The (1991) data shows the (Upland/Dove & Squirrell) Win Polyformed with plastic basewad being loaded hotter than the AA hulls and the AA's have a higher capacity. In other words, I can reload them. The Federal Game load hulls with paper base wads are certainly reloadable which is good cuz I have a lot of them. The Fiocci hulls I was most impressed with. They have a really robust looking wad in them and are what I will order from BP.

September 14, 2007, 11:22 PM	#24
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	I made it to the bench yesterday and looked for the roll crimp die; it's among the missing or mislaid. The data in the 1986 Dupont guide has data for the Fed. hulls. I brought the Lyman#4 book home to see what I need to load Foster slugs in my A5. I have to get the mould sometime and cast a bunch. I have about 100 high base Fed. hulls with the rolled base wad, and they're what I'm going to try the Foster loads in. I copied some loads with that hull, but if you have the Lyman book you will have them. Hope this helps, and load safe. I'm still looking for that die again. I hate misplacing stuff. Anything else I can help with, let me know. Enjoy. CB.

September 15, 2007, 02:43 PM	#25
rugerdude29 Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Stillmore, GA Posts: 41	Since I started reloading shotshells, the hulls I come across most often are Win. AA and polyformed, Rem. STS/Premier and Unibody SP, and Fed. Hi-Power type and One-Piece. Unless I am greatly mistaken, when Winchester redesigned their AA hulls a few years ago, they kept the internal volume the same so that all AA hulls would still use the same recipes. I have reloaded many of the newer hulls using older recipes and they show no more difference over the chrony than I am used to. The polyformed hulls most always have a 6-point crimp and you can see a seperate white basewad in the bottom of the hull. Regardless of the crimp, if the base wad is a seperate piece, then the recipe used will be the one for polyformed hulls. For Rem. hulls, if the hull is shiny and looks kind of metallic, it is STS/Premier. If it is dull green, blue, or black, it is the Unibody SP. Both types of hulls are one piece, but they will use different recipes. For Fed. hulls, I have mostly seen the Hi-Power type. These are used for most of the cheaper loads that you see on sale at various retailers. They will have a paper basewad. You can see it easily when you look down into the hull. The Federal One-Piece hulls I have not had much experience with, but I can tell you that the recipe is a bit different and they last longer before developing cracks. If ever in doubt about a hull, contact the manufacturer. They can tell you what family the hull belongs to. If you want a manual for your press, contact http://www.precisionreloading.com They are a great source for shotshell reloading supplies and components. Hope I may have helped some.