Factory vs. Handload Seating Depth - Pics

jkmola · April 17, 2007, 04:52 PM

Just found this interesting and thought I would share some pics. I have been reloading some 221 fireball rounds and was playing around with the seating depth. In this pic, the green tipped bullet is a Remington factory load with the 50 grain bullet. The bullet on the left is a Calhoon 37 gr. The two red tipped are v-max's, 40 gr. The Calhoon and the left v-max are both seated .005 short of the lands. The right v-max is seated .030 short. Even looking at it, I can't believe the Remington is seated that deeply!

And just for fun, here is the results of the seating depth experiment with the V-max's. I loaded up 3 rounds each, at depths of .005, .010, .015, .020, and .030 off the lands. You can see each group labeled just above the targets. Thoroughly cleaned the barrel, followed by two fouling shots. Groups were then shot with about 1 minute between each shot, at 100 yards. It was even a little gusty out today. For reference, the inside edge of the black square measures exactly 1/2" (.500). Groups are as follows, left to right and top to bottom: 7/16 (.437), 9/16 (.562), 7/8 (.875), 1/2 (.500), and last: 1-5/16 (1.312).

mrawesome22 · April 17, 2007, 05:29 PM

Factory ammo is loaded to ensure they will chamber in every rifle every made in that caliber. That's why handloaded are so much more accurate. They are customized to your rifle. Looks like .010" off rifling is your ticket. Nice group. I'd shoot 3 more 5 shot groups to confirm.

rwilson452 · April 17, 2007, 05:31 PM

If it was me I would do it again and try to get a calm day

Crazy4nitro · April 17, 2007, 06:23 PM

Nice Experiment results. Thanks for sharing with us.

C4N

Abstract · April 17, 2007, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Looks like .010" off rifling is your ticket. Nice group. I'd shoot 3 more 5 shot groups to confirm.

Looks to me like his .005" off the lands group was the best!

mrawesome22 · April 18, 2007, 03:01 PM

Yeah I was on the fence on that one. Wonder if he adjusted his scope after the first group?

brickeyee · April 18, 2007, 03:08 PM

The 0.005 looks the best.
You might even try a little closer if the load is not near max.

"Wonder if he adjusted his scope after the first group?"

The group size is what matters, not the location on the target.
It is usually pretty darn easy to move a tight group back into the middle.

jkmola · April 18, 2007, 03:31 PM

Nope - didn't move the scope! Tried again this morning when it was a little quieter out, wind-wise. Just redid groups 1, 2, and 4. Group 1 (.005 off the lands) was the clear winner with about a 3/8" group. Group was the exact same shape, too. I think it may be a near-max load, as there is the slightest shiny mark from the plunger, barely visible. So, I will call this a max load, for me. I'll clean again, then try 2 or 3 more groups (maybe 5 shot?) to be absolutely sure. Groups 2 and 4 started to open up just a little (3/4") - but could be from fouling - hence the cleaning.

mrawesome22 · April 18, 2007, 04:18 PM

I know that Brickeye. I just don't understand how seating the bullet .005" deeper could move the group that far. Like I said before, one good three shot group does not mean great accuracy. Jkmola, you need to be shooting at least 3, 5 shot groups at each seating depth. That's what will prove the most accurate.

Rimrod · April 18, 2007, 06:26 PM

SAAMI max length for a .221 Fireball is 1.83". How does the Remington factory and your loads compare to that?

mrawesome22 · April 18, 2007, 06:54 PM

SAAMI max lengths are meaningless to the handloader.

jkmola · April 18, 2007, 07:42 PM

Exactly. But while that may be true, in the interest of fair and balanced reporting, the Remington load measures 1.822" case head to tip. My handload that is .005 off the lands measures 1.960". It just barely fits in the magazine. I'm thinking about a single shot follower, anyways, for target and groundhog work. Maybe shorten things up a little, if needed, and go with a heavier bullet for winter time 'yote hunting.

mrawesome22 · April 18, 2007, 07:51 PM

Those 40 grainers are fine for yote hunting. I wouldn't go single shot unless you absolutely have to. Many times the ghogs on my farm pop out all at once. You shoot one and the rest go running. Running shots on ghogs are a blast! Just let them all get pretty far away from their holes. And if you miss, they come back out 5 minutes later LOL.

jkmola · April 18, 2007, 08:12 PM

Well, when I saw you mention your farm, and groundhogs popping up all over the place, I immediately did the natural thing and checked to see where you were located - OHIO - ugh! (I'm in MI) Just kidding, though. Whereabouts? I lived in Columbus for about 2 years, and even married a girl from there!

Still married, too, although things get interesting around the end of college football season! I lived up in Westerville for a bit, and my in-laws live down in the southeast corner not far from Gallipolis. Oh, and while I'm at it, I've been to Cedar Point a bunch, too!

Anyyyywaaaays - I wondered about the 40's for 'yotes, but specifically the V-Max's. I have heard that they are about the most explosive of the bunch, with maybe just the Blitzkings a bit more so. Haven't shot any yet, so I don't have any experience to go by. Thought maybe something that held together a bit more might be justified. Just wondering out loud. Feel free to chime in with advice, anybody - it's free!

mrawesome22 · April 18, 2007, 08:29 PM

Columbus scares me LOL. I live in SE Ohio on a gravel road in the middle of nowhere. That's why I'm on dial up! LOL The VMAX are great for yotes. I've killed many with them. And go bucks! LOL

jkmola · April 18, 2007, 09:05 PM

Quote:

my in-laws live down in the southeast corner

Vinton ring a bell? It's small - real small. Talk about the middle of nowhere! If not, it's about 20 minutes from Jackson.

Rimrod · April 18, 2007, 09:44 PM

"SAAMI max lengths are meaningless to the handloader."

True, unless the handloader starts a thread about the difference in length between his loads and factory. Remington has to stay within SAAMI specs or they can't label it as a .221 Fireball without warning about it's length.

I was just trying to get the thread back on its original track since it got hijacked in the first response.

mrawesome22 · April 18, 2007, 10:52 PM

Sorry Rimrod.

Rimrod · April 19, 2007, 12:52 PM

No problem mrawesome22, I've found that adjusting seating depth is the last variable I work on. I start with the longest possible length and vary powders and then primers. If I can't get anything else to work, and really have to have the bullet selected, then I may adjust seating depth. But I've never had to do that, yet.

I live in Ohio too, NE though, and my favorite varmint cartridge around here is the .221 Fireball. I had one built on a 700 ADL action before Remington started making rifles for it.

jkmola · April 19, 2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

I live in Ohio too

But it says that you are "behind enemy lines"

Soooooooo - You must be from MI, too!!!

Rimrod · April 19, 2007, 04:38 PM

"But it says that you are "behind enemy lines""

That would be the Ohio River.

brickeyee · April 19, 2007, 05:50 PM

"I just don't understand how seating the bullet .005" deeper could move the group that far."

No mention of the gun.
A light barrel can move a whole lot.

jkmola · April 19, 2007, 08:41 PM

No, I guess I never did mention the gun. Remington 700 Classic. Sporter barrel, factory. Just an old Swift 4 x 12 on it. Not even bedded. Bought a Remington synthetic stock off Ebay for it. That's it. Trigger was horrible. Lightened it up a little, but it still has horrible creep. Needs a real trigger job.

April 17, 2007, 04:52 PM	#1
jkmola Member Join Date: February 2, 2007 Posts: 16	Factory vs. Handload Seating Depth - Pics Just found this interesting and thought I would share some pics. I have been reloading some 221 fireball rounds and was playing around with the seating depth. In this pic, the green tipped bullet is a Remington factory load with the 50 grain bullet. The bullet on the left is a Calhoon 37 gr. The two red tipped are v-max's, 40 gr. The Calhoon and the left v-max are both seated .005 short of the lands. The right v-max is seated .030 short. Even looking at it, I can't believe the Remington is seated that deeply! And just for fun, here is the results of the seating depth experiment with the V-max's. I loaded up 3 rounds each, at depths of .005, .010, .015, .020, and .030 off the lands. You can see each group labeled just above the targets. Thoroughly cleaned the barrel, followed by two fouling shots. Groups were then shot with about 1 minute between each shot, at 100 yards. It was even a little gusty out today. For reference, the inside edge of the black square measures exactly 1/2" (.500). Groups are as follows, left to right and top to bottom: 7/16 (.437), 9/16 (.562), 7/8 (.875), 1/2 (.500), and last: 1-5/16 (1.312).

April 17, 2007, 05:29 PM	#2
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Factory ammo is loaded to ensure they will chamber in every rifle every made in that caliber. That's why handloaded are so much more accurate. They are customized to your rifle. Looks like .010" off rifling is your ticket. Nice group. I'd shoot 3 more 5 shot groups to confirm.

April 17, 2007, 05:31 PM	#3
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	If it was me I would do it again and try to get a calm day

April 17, 2007, 06:23 PM	#4
Crazy4nitro Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2007 Location: Lou-a-vul KY Posts: 142	Nice Experiment results. Thanks for sharing with us. C4N

April 18, 2007, 03:01 PM	#6
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Yeah I was on the fence on that one. Wonder if he adjusted his scope after the first group?

April 18, 2007, 03:08 PM	#7
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	The 0.005 looks the best. You might even try a little closer if the load is not near max. "Wonder if he adjusted his scope after the first group?" The group size is what matters, not the location on the target. It is usually pretty darn easy to move a tight group back into the middle.

April 18, 2007, 03:31 PM	#8
jkmola Member Join Date: February 2, 2007 Posts: 16	Nope - didn't move the scope! Tried again this morning when it was a little quieter out, wind-wise. Just redid groups 1, 2, and 4. Group 1 (.005 off the lands) was the clear winner with about a 3/8" group. Group was the exact same shape, too. I think it may be a near-max load, as there is the slightest shiny mark from the plunger, barely visible. So, I will call this a max load, for me. I'll clean again, then try 2 or 3 more groups (maybe 5 shot?) to be absolutely sure. Groups 2 and 4 started to open up just a little (3/4") - but could be from fouling - hence the cleaning.

April 18, 2007, 04:18 PM	#9
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	I know that Brickeye. I just don't understand how seating the bullet .005" deeper could move the group that far. Like I said before, one good three shot group does not mean great accuracy. Jkmola, you need to be shooting at least 3, 5 shot groups at each seating depth. That's what will prove the most accurate.

April 18, 2007, 06:26 PM	#10
Rimrod Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Behind enemy lines Posts: 1,309	SAAMI max length for a .221 Fireball is 1.83". How does the Remington factory and your loads compare to that?

April 18, 2007, 06:54 PM	#11
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	SAAMI max lengths are meaningless to the handloader.

April 18, 2007, 07:42 PM	#12
jkmola Member Join Date: February 2, 2007 Posts: 16	Exactly. But while that may be true, in the interest of fair and balanced reporting, the Remington load measures 1.822" case head to tip. My handload that is .005 off the lands measures 1.960". It just barely fits in the magazine. I'm thinking about a single shot follower, anyways, for target and groundhog work. Maybe shorten things up a little, if needed, and go with a heavier bullet for winter time 'yote hunting.

April 18, 2007, 07:51 PM	#13
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Those 40 grainers are fine for yote hunting. I wouldn't go single shot unless you absolutely have to. Many times the ghogs on my farm pop out all at once. You shoot one and the rest go running. Running shots on ghogs are a blast! Just let them all get pretty far away from their holes. And if you miss, they come back out 5 minutes later LOL.

April 18, 2007, 08:12 PM	#14
jkmola Member Join Date: February 2, 2007 Posts: 16	Well, when I saw you mention your farm, and groundhogs popping up all over the place, I immediately did the natural thing and checked to see where you were located - OHIO - ugh! (I'm in MI) Just kidding, though. Whereabouts? I lived in Columbus for about 2 years, and even married a girl from there! Still married, too, although things get interesting around the end of college football season! I lived up in Westerville for a bit, and my in-laws live down in the southeast corner not far from Gallipolis. Oh, and while I'm at it, I've been to Cedar Point a bunch, too! Anyyyywaaaays - I wondered about the 40's for 'yotes, but specifically the V-Max's. I have heard that they are about the most explosive of the bunch, with maybe just the Blitzkings a bit more so. Haven't shot any yet, so I don't have any experience to go by. Thought maybe something that held together a bit more might be justified. Just wondering out loud. Feel free to chime in with advice, anybody - it's free!

April 18, 2007, 08:29 PM	#15
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Columbus scares me LOL. I live in SE Ohio on a gravel road in the middle of nowhere. That's why I'm on dial up! LOL The VMAX are great for yotes. I've killed many with them. And go bucks! LOL

April 18, 2007, 09:44 PM	#17
Rimrod Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Behind enemy lines Posts: 1,309	"SAAMI max lengths are meaningless to the handloader." True, unless the handloader starts a thread about the difference in length between his loads and factory. Remington has to stay within SAAMI specs or they can't label it as a .221 Fireball without warning about it's length. I was just trying to get the thread back on its original track since it got hijacked in the first response.

April 18, 2007, 10:52 PM	#18
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Sorry Rimrod.

April 19, 2007, 12:52 PM	#19
Rimrod Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Behind enemy lines Posts: 1,309	No problem mrawesome22, I've found that adjusting seating depth is the last variable I work on. I start with the longest possible length and vary powders and then primers. If I can't get anything else to work, and really have to have the bullet selected, then I may adjust seating depth. But I've never had to do that, yet. I live in Ohio too, NE though, and my favorite varmint cartridge around here is the .221 Fireball. I had one built on a 700 ADL action before Remington started making rifles for it.

April 19, 2007, 04:38 PM	#21
Rimrod Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Behind enemy lines Posts: 1,309	"But it says that you are "behind enemy lines"" That would be the Ohio River.

April 19, 2007, 05:50 PM	#22
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	"I just don't understand how seating the bullet .005" deeper could move the group that far." No mention of the gun. A light barrel can move a whole lot.

April 19, 2007, 08:41 PM	#23
jkmola Member Join Date: February 2, 2007 Posts: 16	No, I guess I never did mention the gun. Remington 700 Classic. Sporter barrel, factory. Just an old Swift 4 x 12 on it. Not even bedded. Bought a Remington synthetic stock off Ebay for it. That's it. Trigger was horrible. Lightened it up a little, but it still has horrible creep. Needs a real trigger job.