Surplus Powder???

shooter_john · March 2, 2006, 12:48 AM

I have heard and read about people using surplus powder that seems to be aquired at much cheaper prices than the powder I buy? How would one go about finding this surplus powder?
I mainly load .308, .223, 40 S&W, 38, 45ACP.

meplat · March 2, 2006, 01:26 AM

Personally, I've seen it advertised, but always been a bit shy about saving the extra dollars to use it. As I understand it, it is cannister grade powder that has not been tested in pressure barrels. For all I know, a person might be able to shoot it for ten lifetimes without a problem, but the one time I did do some closer checking into buying some, some guy's wife answered the phone, and when I asked about load information for the .30-06, she told me her husband was still working up data on that one. With a little further coaxing, I found that "working up data" meant he was firing loads own his own range in his own rifles.

I don't know if all the vendors of surplus out there are like that one, but one was enough to make me leery. I personally prefer to buy powders from reputable companies who have things like pressure barrels and real test facilities. But, I HAVE been accused of being overly cautious more than once.

Leftoverdj · March 2, 2006, 01:44 AM

Meplat, you seen the recall on the Bullseye in the Unique kegs? So much for "reputable companies".

I shoot surplus powders. Have ever since I started loading about 45 years ago. Had a couple of surprises, but never damaged a gun. Seen several of my surplus powders become canister grade with no change but the price doubling. Worse than that sometimes. I bought my first 32 pound case of 5744 for about what a single one pound can now sells for.

Here are the folks I buy from. http://www.gibrass.com/gunpowder.html
http://www.patsreloading.com/patsrel/whatsnew.htm

AlaskaMike · March 2, 2006, 02:58 AM

I would jump on some surplus powder if I could get any. I called and spoke with the owner of gibrass.com, and he told me he wasn't able to ship to Alaska.

Keep in mind that Hodgdon's started out reselling surplus military powder.

Mike

JJB2 · March 2, 2006, 04:06 AM

when was it??

Russ5924 · March 2, 2006, 10:06 AM

JJB2 go to the top thread on this forum and read Powder recall

snuffy · March 2, 2006, 04:58 PM

Surplus powder is THE best deal for high volume shooters, like myself. My first purchase was from hi-tech at least 5 years ago. Since then I've been buying from Jeff Bartlett at gi brass .com.
http://www.hi-techammo.com/
http://www.gibrass.com/

Some of the time what Jeff gets is new powder. Meaning it has never been loaded. Other times he gets pull-down powders, that have been loaded then the bullets pulled and the powder dumped. So far, I haven't been able to tell the difference, at least as far as WC844 goes. It is loaded per H-335 data, in my .223 it performs very close to what you'd expect from H-335.

Once when I called about ordering some other powders, he said "I just got in some chinese powder that was an over-run for an ammunition company". It was a pelleted flake type powder he called nm-04. The burn rate was supposed to be around green-dot or dupont PB. I ordered 5 pounds, loaded it using green dot as a guide. It worked well in 9mm, using 124 grain west coast plated bullets, it was accurate and functional. I also loaded some 12 ga using PB as a guidline. It too worked just like it would have if I used PB. Try it IF you are an experienced handloader, IF you are just starting out, stick with commercial powders.

B9mmHP · March 2, 2006, 05:42 PM

Are you useing it for?

Just banging away or hunting, self defence. What?

snuffy · March 3, 2006, 03:07 AM

I use it mostly for blasting ammo in my .223, .308, M-1 garrand, or even for 600 yd. fun shooting,(target shooting any rest). Also for use in IPSC and IDPA handgun shooting,( the NM-04). Jeff also had a small ammount of powder pulled from 45 acp ball ammo. He dubbed it WC-814, said to load it using WW 231 data. It was my go-to powder for 45 and 40 S&W.

I never have hunted with any of it. My hunting loads are worked up with cannister grade powders, mostly Hodgdon. Not that it wouldn't work just fine, but the applications just aren't suited to my current hunting rifle.

I just bought a Savage .308, I'll work up a hunting load for it in case a nephew needs an extra gun. I plan on using a recent purchase of 4895 from Bartlett. If that doesn't work well, I also got some WC-846. I may try that as well. I may even decide to hunt with the .308, the 300 WSM is too much gun sometimes!

B9mmHP · March 3, 2006, 02:38 PM

I think surplus powder is fine for blasting and just fun shooting, but for competition, hunting and self defence you should use fresh powder of the same lot number for a given load.

meplat · March 3, 2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Meplat, you seen the recall on the Bullseye in the Unique kegs? So much for "reputable companies".

Ya know, I've been involved in motorcycle forums for quite some time, and at times the variety of opinions can get quite lively. Ah well...difference is good.

All I saw was an honest question regarding others' opinions. I gave mine, with enough caveats to make sure that anyone could understand that they were just that - opinions. Certainly not some pronouncement from "on high" as I have only reloaded a short time myself (19 years). I am pleased to listen to all differing opinions, and hopefully learn something from them. One of the reasons I came over here to the reloading and technical sections was to get away from some of the petty sniping in the legal/political and general gun discussion threads. Just gets old to see why we as gun owners are such easy targets. We can't seem to have an amiable conversation with each other, much less outsiders.

I'm glad you've had good results with surplus powders, and happy that you've saved money and even more happy that you've done so in a manner that you have found to be a safe and efficient method. I really am. Enough folks with these types of experiences might very well convince me to dip my own toes into those waters. Unless, that is, they choose to preface their posts like the above.

Give you an example of what I mean from a previous thread I was involved in...

Quote:

Quote:
I'll have to disagree with the single stage press. I will not argue with others that think a single stage press is the way to go, because the thread will be hijacked into an argument and it'll just confuse you.

(my response)
No hijacking going on here even if we don't agree. Good solid reasoning behind what you state (some of which makes VERY good sense). Nope, nothing to see here...move along.

I just honestly don't understand the rancor I see between "gun people", or the reasons for it. As for me, I think I'll continue to enjoy my freedoms while they last, and die when they're gone. 'Cause if this is the way to conduct ourselves over minor details of our experiences, that ain't far away. "They" don't have to divide and conquer. We seem to be doing the first part of their work for them.

B9mmHP · March 3, 2006, 11:14 PM

I don't know if you were referring to me as the post above.

"Quote" Unless, that is, they choose to preface their posts like the above.

I think you were referring to the one in your post at the top of your post.

If not. I do apologize for not mentioning that loads need to be worked up, regardless of manufacture of powder or brass, I ass/u/me, that most people knew that. But, then that doesn`t happen a lot with new re-loaders.

If everyone would read a reloading manual and reread it and often, and take it to heart their would be fewer accidents.

flutedchamber · March 4, 2006, 12:27 AM

I have used surplus powder for years in my 9mm, 38/357, 44 mag, 45 acp, 223, 7.62x39, 308, 30-06 and 50 bmg. The powder I use is from Pat Mc Donald and is not pulldown. Pulldown is powder removed from loaded cartridges and put into containers. The powder is economical, and shoots well. In some instances it is a bit faster or slowe than canister powder, which helps greatly in some loads. I have gotten quite a few one inch 30 caliber one hundred yard loads with surplus powder.

The first time I use the surplus powder, I start at the minimun load, until I can judge the reaction of the load.

meplat · March 4, 2006, 01:03 AM

Quote:

I don't know if you were referring to me as the post above.

Not at all, B9. I was referring to the unnecessary reference to "so much for reputable companies", not to any comment you had made. I sincerely apologize if I wasn't clear on that.

The gentleman who posted it is an obviously knowledgeable reloader with a considerable amount of information to share. I've seen enough of his posts to recognize this. The man ain't blowin' no smoke when it comes to his knowlege base. I'd truly like to mine as much of his experience as possible. Nineteen years just isn't enough to learn everything I'd like to know, and really suspect ninety won't be either. I just wish that in the technical threads, non essential put downs could be left out. I really think that it would make any following information more likely to be recieved in a manner that would be beneficial to all. We (and now it's MY turn to ass/u/me) all in here in the technical threads are true "gun people" as opposed to some in the political/legal and general gun discussions. I'd like to think we could all sit around the cyber-pot belly stove, have a nice cup of coffee, and share opinions without having someone make comments that are going to add nothing to the discussion other than to cast a poor light on the person who gave an honest answer to an honest question.

The orginal question was about opinions on the use of surplus powders, and I just voiced my opinions. I also gave the caveat that they were just that...opinions. As stated in my first posting, I am if anything, an overly cautious man, but civilly put well reasoned logic does have a tendency to make me at least look long and hard at my beliefs, and perhaps even lead to me enjoying an already enjoyable pastime even more. I think that should be the thrust of the tech threads...but once again, that's just my opinion.

And I certainly didn't mean for you to think that I was writing in response to anything you had said. Once again, if it appeared that way, I am truly sorry.

Leftoverdj · March 4, 2006, 01:05 AM

Quote:

I think surplus powder is fine for blasting and just fun shooting, but for competition, hunting and self defence you should use fresh powder of the same lot number for a given load.

Why?

Leftoverdj · March 4, 2006, 01:47 AM

I figger that ill-informed comments get called. I could fill up the screen with dangerous mistakes made by the major companies. A name brand is no guarantee of safety. Nor would I have any difficulty coming up with a list of bad data that came from pressure barrels.

'Twaren't me who chose to imply that established practices are somehow unsafe. Folks have been working up loads without pressure barrels for a long, long, time. To name just a few, Elmer Keith, PO Ackley, Roy Weatherby, and Ken Waters did most of their work without pressure barrels. Cautious folks still work up each load because published pressure data cannot be trusted to apply to our rifles.

One of my pet peeves, and I have expressed it before, is the number of opinions posted by people who have never done the subject in question and have no factual basis for those opinions. I'm gonna add casting casual slurs and retreating behind a false civility to that list.

B9mmHP · March 4, 2006, 01:50 PM

meplat
No problem here. I didn`t think it was me.

leftoverdj

WHY? From experience and reading.

As an example from one who knows, David Tubs "sp" A world champing shooter says he seldom keeps a powder more than a year and always buys enough powder of the same lot to last trough the shooting season for a particular caliber.

Powder can very from lot to lot, as primers and brass also do.

How old is surplus powder???

I have used surplus ammo .308 and 9mm in guns that shoot 1/2 MOA all day long with fresh powder that I reload.

The surplus is fine for plinking ( But not as good a group). Every now an then I get the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] happened.

I don't want the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] happened in a self defence load, nor do I want it for hunting. If it is off 2+" at 100 yds it will be off 4+ at 200 yds and that is not good enough for me.

willsnipe · March 4, 2006, 03:41 PM

I've been using surp powder for years. Blasted thousands of prairie dogs with it. Shot some pretty tiny groups too. Just remember that it can vary from lot to lot more than canister powders, and start working a load from the begining with each new batch. Try www.wideners.com They are great folks to work with and sell a couple types appropriate to 223 & 308 etc.

I also use factory second bullets! So far none of the critters have noticed!

Just get to do three times as much shooting!

Leftoverdj · March 4, 2006, 06:31 PM

Let's hear about that experience, B9mmHP?

Have you conducted specific tests that show changes in powder performance of reasonable periods of time, say 20-30 years?

Are you aware that Hercules stored a portion of the original run of Unique and tested it against every subsequent run for nearly a hundred years? Did you happen to read Bob Bell's article in Handloaders Digest #7 on testing WWII surplus H-4895?

And how do you know if powder is "fresh"? The major brands routinely store powder in bulk and only package as needed.

Why do you conclude that problems with milsurp ammo are powder problems? Generations of military match shooters shooters have obtained improved accuracy by substituting commercial bullets for military bullets of the same weight with no change in any other component.

I'm always willing to learn. If you have any hard data or actual test experience, trot it on out.

B9mmHP · March 5, 2006, 05:18 PM

Leftoverdj.

I don`t believe I wrote, that I did any tests.
What I wrote was. From, experience and reading.Here is my Trot.

Some such reading comes from Speer Reloading Manual #11 page 33 LOT UNIFORMITY
“ Quote” Powder manufactures strive to maintain a high degree of uniformity between lots of powder sold under the same label. This effort has been quite successful for many years, but recently, some wide lot-to-lot variations have found in Factory-Fresh (That Sir is my reply to your question of what is Fresh and not surplus and why David Tubb, one of the most renowned rifle shooters in history, buys enough powder of the same lot # to last the shooting season.) canister powders. These are popular powders that are widely used by hand loaders. It will be noted that specific recommendations in the charge tables are often at considerable variation with earlier Speer data, and some data from other sources. These revisions were made necessary by unexpected variation in burning characteristics in lots of the same powder.

From. Hornaday, Vol 1 Fifth Edition page 38.

“Quote” The table of relative burning rates we present here is informational rather than prescriptive; It is definitely not a powder substitution chart. Not only do powders vary from lot to lot and year to year of manufacture, their relative burning rates may very from cartridge to cartridge.

“Quote” From the above Speer manual pg 32.

STORAGE.

Proper storage of powders requires that they be kept in a dry place with even, cool temperature. They should be kept in the original factory containers. Glass makes a poor powder container. Light, like elevated temperature, accelerates decomposition of smokeless powder. Stored under proper conditions, shelf life of modern smokeless powder is practically indefinite. But if exposed to heat and/ or light, it may last only a few months.

How old is surplus? I suppose it can be from a recent factory overrun, but if it was recent 2-3 years. The factory sure needs some management help, and since it can be kept indefinite under the right conditions why would they sell it as surplus? It must have been a monster overrun.

It could have been a large batch they had stored for the use in military weapons. The bullet manufactures produce large amounts of ammo fully loaded cartridges that the military stores for future use. Within a certain time limit the military sell it. And that is what I buy to shoot as it has been stored properly “mostly” with the primer pockets sealed and no light can get to the powder. Some of this is well over 20 yrs old. Why do they sell it? If it not reliable enough for our military. Why would I want to use it for compition,hunting or self-defense. Nor would I use surplus powder either.

I really don`t care what you shoot, that is your choice, not mine. I was trying to pass on what I know; to people that may care about what they shoot. It maybe that someone here would like to compete agents David Tubb a National NRA Highpower Champion 6-7 + times. With your attitude I can tell you will never be that person, shooting surplus powder. Plink away, and let professionals write the reloading manuals and win National Champion Matches.

I have already given you my experience. I hope your surplus powder was cared for properly.

snuffy · March 5, 2006, 06:09 PM

B9mmHP, your points are well taken. You are, of course, correct. BUT, with a little trial and error type of load work-up, you can overcome the obstacles of the aging,(if any), and the unknown lot variations of the surplus powder. As long as there's some idea of where the burn rate falls,(what number of commercial powder IE H-335), to use in initial load work-up. Since most of what I've been buying comes in 8 pound jugs, it's worth the effort to work up a load for each new jug of powder. It takes even me a long time to shoot up 8 lbs. of powder. I can get 2,330 rounds of .223 from an 8 pound jug of WC-844! Up to a couple years of rattle battles, plinking, pin shoots, 3 gun, and other fun shooting.

I just shot an incredible 3/8 inch 5 shot group with my bushy AR-15, using the WC-844, r-p cases ww sr primers, 24.0 grains of 844, hornady 60 grain hollow points,(2275), @ 100 yds. A second group with the same powder charge went into 3/4 inch! This was during a load work-up, I came back and loaded the rest of the box of bullets and another box. I can't wait for another day like yesterday to see if the accuracy holds!

The risk, in my opinion, is small. While I don't have a pressure barrel, I DO have a chrongraph. Also I have a micrometer that reads to .0001. With it and the chrono, I can "read" velocity and case head/pressure ring expansion. This will keep me safe from dammage to my rifles or handguns. That's if I were to be pushing the envelope to max loads.

I'd say that for a beginner reloader, you should stay with commercial canister grade powders. Treading in unknown waters is for old farts like me.

Leftoverdj · March 5, 2006, 06:46 PM

BM9mm, "experience" implies some actual shooting. The quotes you supplied certainly don't amount to a warning that surplus powder is unsuitable for serious use. Lot to lot variation is of major concern only when changing lots and it applies to canister powder, as well. As surplus is generally sold in 8 pound jugs and I buy several jugs at a time, it is not much of a concern other than the initial load development.

My rifles will tell me what a load is doing. If X charge shoots into .75 MOA at 2800 fps, I'm good to go hunting whether that powder is surplus or canister, a week old or 30 years. It's the results that matter, not how you get them.

It happens that I have done a fair amount of shooting of surplus powders. I recently reached the end of a case of 5744 that I had bought about 20 years ago and it was surplus when I bought it. I found no observable change in accuracy or velocity between the last of the old lot and the brand new can I bought. A slight difference would not have surprised me as normal lot to lot variation, but I did not find even that, much less any indication of impaired performance.

I still have some to the original surplus lot of what is now AA-3100. It's still giving the same results it gave when I bought it, but I am down to 3-4 pounds of the original 32 pounds. I still have a partial jug of surplus H-322 and can detect no change.

I've seen deteriorated powder, and it's unmistakeable with a red dust and an acrid reek. That happened to be canister H 4227 that had been left exposed to direct sunlight a few years. I've never seen it in surplus.

B9mmHP · March 5, 2006, 07:12 PM

You are correct.

My reply was to leftoverdj.

But I do welcome your input. I see nothing wrong with reloading surplus powder, as long as it is not used for hunting or self defence. Competition is your choice, if you like. Can you imagine a trophy Buck,Antilop "sp" etc: walking away when you spent $2,000 + for a hunt, because you used surplus powder.

However I do use reloads for hunting with Fresh powder.

I just can not imagine someone using any surplus powder or cartridges for self defence, I don`t even use reloads for it. I use Hornady 124gr 9mm TAP for my carry weapon, it is low flash for shooting at night,"no blinding from the flash"

I also use A chronograph for my reloads.

Well, I have to go feed my dog.

With Fresh dog food.

B9mmHP · March 5, 2006, 07:48 PM

Do what you want.

I just feed my dog fresh food, not surplus.

You read my posts, if you don`t like it live with it.:barf:

I wont reply to anymore of your posts on this thread, but maybe others.

And I have done, actually shooting, probably more than you, but not with surplus powder.

Have a nice day.

meplat · March 5, 2006, 10:49 PM

Quote:

The risk, in my opinion, is small. While I don't have a pressure barrel, I DO have a chrongraph. Also I have a micrometer that reads to .0001. With it and the chrono, I can "read" velocity and case head/pressure ring expansion. This will keep me safe from dammage to my rifles or handguns. That's if I were to be pushing the envelope to max loads.

Snuffy, this is exactly the type of information I was hoping to see. With enough educated responses, I just might be persuaded to make use of these powders myself, and save some money in the process. I haven't brought it out, but both my kids reload (under my supervision) and shoot with me. As cautious as I am with my own safety, it is miniscule compared to the precautions I take when it comes to the safety of two of the three most important people in the world to me.

I have been reluctant to utilize surplus powders up til this point, and honestly wouldn't let my children fire it until I had many years of shooting it myself under my belt. And until I see reasoned posts such as yours (hopefully with some expansion on your knowlege base re: safety signs) I am reluctant to even try it out on me. I am full well aware that shooting your own loads carries some inherent risk, as does anything that is worthwhile in life. It is incumbent upon me to minimize that risk as much as possible while still doing the things I (and my kids) love to do.

You do make some good points, as does leftoverdj in regards to how to safely utilize a resource. I appreciate the input, and would like to see you expand on it even further.

March 2, 2006, 04:06 AM	#5
JJB2 Junior member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Posts: 558	I Hadn't Heard About That Recall Leftoverdj when was it??

March 2, 2006, 05:42 PM	#8
B9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 465	What? Are you useing it for? Just banging away or hunting, self defence. What?

March 3, 2006, 03:07 AM	#9
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	most anything I use it mostly for blasting ammo in my .223, .308, M-1 garrand, or even for 600 yd. fun shooting,(target shooting any rest). Also for use in IPSC and IDPA handgun shooting,( the NM-04). Jeff also had a small ammount of powder pulled from 45 acp ball ammo. He dubbed it WC-814, said to load it using WW 231 data. It was my go-to powder for 45 and 40 S&W. I never have hunted with any of it. My hunting loads are worked up with cannister grade powders, mostly Hodgdon. Not that it wouldn't work just fine, but the applications just aren't suited to my current hunting rifle. I just bought a Savage .308, I'll work up a hunting load for it in case a nephew needs an extra gun. I plan on using a recent purchase of 4895 from Bartlett. If that doesn't work well, I also got some WC-846. I may try that as well. I may even decide to hunt with the .308, the 300 WSM is too much gun sometimes!

March 3, 2006, 02:38 PM	#10
B9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 465	snuffy I think surplus powder is fine for blasting and just fun shooting, but for competition, hunting and self defence you should use fresh powder of the same lot number for a given load.

March 3, 2006, 11:14 PM	#12
B9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 465	meplat I don't know if you were referring to me as the post above. "Quote" Unless, that is, they choose to preface their posts like the above. I think you were referring to the one in your post at the top of your post. If not. I do apologize for not mentioning that loads need to be worked up, regardless of manufacture of powder or brass, I ass/u/me, that most people knew that. But, then that doesn`t happen a lot with new re-loaders. If everyone would read a reloading manual and reread it and often, and take it to heart their would be fewer accidents.

March 2, 2006, 12:48 AM	#1
shooter_john Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2002 Location: ALABAMA Posts: 1,472	Surplus Powder??? I have heard and read about people using surplus powder that seems to be aquired at much cheaper prices than the powder I buy? How would one go about finding this surplus powder? I mainly load .308, .223, 40 S&W, 38, 45ACP.

March 2, 2006, 01:26 AM	#2
meplat Member Join Date: February 28, 2006 Posts: 34	Personally, I've seen it advertised, but always been a bit shy about saving the extra dollars to use it. As I understand it, it is cannister grade powder that has not been tested in pressure barrels. For all I know, a person might be able to shoot it for ten lifetimes without a problem, but the one time I did do some closer checking into buying some, some guy's wife answered the phone, and when I asked about load information for the .30-06, she told me her husband was still working up data on that one. With a little further coaxing, I found that "working up data" meant he was firing loads own his own range in his own rifles. I don't know if all the vendors of surplus out there are like that one, but one was enough to make me leery. I personally prefer to buy powders from reputable companies who have things like pressure barrels and real test facilities. But, I HAVE been accused of being overly cautious more than once.

March 2, 2006, 01:44 AM	#3
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	Meplat, you seen the recall on the Bullseye in the Unique kegs? So much for "reputable companies". I shoot surplus powders. Have ever since I started loading about 45 years ago. Had a couple of surprises, but never damaged a gun. Seen several of my surplus powders become canister grade with no change but the price doubling. Worse than that sometimes. I bought my first 32 pound case of 5744 for about what a single one pound can now sells for. Here are the folks I buy from. http://www.gibrass.com/gunpowder.html http://www.patsreloading.com/patsrel/whatsnew.htm

March 2, 2006, 02:58 AM	#4
AlaskaMike Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 947	I would jump on some surplus powder if I could get any. I called and spoke with the owner of gibrass.com, and he told me he wasn't able to ship to Alaska. Keep in mind that Hodgdon's started out reselling surplus military powder. Mike

March 2, 2006, 10:06 AM	#6
Russ5924 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Posts: 1,874	JJB2 go to the top thread on this forum and read Powder recall

March 2, 2006, 04:58 PM	#7
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	works good! Surplus powder is THE best deal for high volume shooters, like myself. My first purchase was from hi-tech at least 5 years ago. Since then I've been buying from Jeff Bartlett at gi brass .com. http://www.hi-techammo.com/ http://www.gibrass.com/ Some of the time what Jeff gets is new powder. Meaning it has never been loaded. Other times he gets pull-down powders, that have been loaded then the bullets pulled and the powder dumped. So far, I haven't been able to tell the difference, at least as far as WC844 goes. It is loaded per H-335 data, in my .223 it performs very close to what you'd expect from H-335. Once when I called about ordering some other powders, he said "I just got in some chinese powder that was an over-run for an ammunition company". It was a pelleted flake type powder he called nm-04. The burn rate was supposed to be around green-dot or dupont PB. I ordered 5 pounds, loaded it using green dot as a guide. It worked well in 9mm, using 124 grain west coast plated bullets, it was accurate and functional. I also loaded some 12 ga using PB as a guidline. It too worked just like it would have if I used PB. Try it IF you are an experienced handloader, IF you are just starting out, stick with commercial powders.

March 4, 2006, 12:27 AM	#13
flutedchamber Member Join Date: July 14, 2005 Location: New Jersey Posts: 61	Surplus Powder I have used surplus powder for years in my 9mm, 38/357, 44 mag, 45 acp, 223, 7.62x39, 308, 30-06 and 50 bmg. The powder I use is from Pat Mc Donald and is not pulldown. Pulldown is powder removed from loaded cartridges and put into containers. The powder is economical, and shoots well. In some instances it is a bit faster or slowe than canister powder, which helps greatly in some loads. I have gotten quite a few one inch 30 caliber one hundred yard loads with surplus powder. The first time I use the surplus powder, I start at the minimun load, until I can judge the reaction of the load.

March 4, 2006, 01:47 AM	#16
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	I figger that ill-informed comments get called. I could fill up the screen with dangerous mistakes made by the major companies. A name brand is no guarantee of safety. Nor would I have any difficulty coming up with a list of bad data that came from pressure barrels. 'Twaren't me who chose to imply that established practices are somehow unsafe. Folks have been working up loads without pressure barrels for a long, long, time. To name just a few, Elmer Keith, PO Ackley, Roy Weatherby, and Ken Waters did most of their work without pressure barrels. Cautious folks still work up each load because published pressure data cannot be trusted to apply to our rifles. One of my pet peeves, and I have expressed it before, is the number of opinions posted by people who have never done the subject in question and have no factual basis for those opinions. I'm gonna add casting casual slurs and retreating behind a false civility to that list.

March 4, 2006, 01:50 PM	#17
B9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 465	meplat No problem here. I didn`t think it was me. leftoverdj WHY? From experience and reading. As an example from one who knows, David Tubs "sp" A world champing shooter says he seldom keeps a powder more than a year and always buys enough powder of the same lot to last trough the shooting season for a particular caliber. Powder can very from lot to lot, as primers and brass also do. How old is surplus powder??? I have used surplus ammo .308 and 9mm in guns that shoot 1/2 MOA all day long with fresh powder that I reload. The surplus is fine for plinking ( But not as good a group). Every now an then I get the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] happened. I don't want the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] happened in a self defence load, nor do I want it for hunting. If it is off 2+" at 100 yds it will be off 4+ at 200 yds and that is not good enough for me.

March 4, 2006, 03:41 PM	#18
willsnipe Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Posts: 24	I've been using surp powder for years. Blasted thousands of prairie dogs with it. Shot some pretty tiny groups too. Just remember that it can vary from lot to lot more than canister powders, and start working a load from the begining with each new batch. Try www.wideners.com They are great folks to work with and sell a couple types appropriate to 223 & 308 etc. I also use factory second bullets! So far none of the critters have noticed! Just get to do three times as much shooting!

March 4, 2006, 06:31 PM	#19
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	Let's hear about that experience, B9mmHP? Have you conducted specific tests that show changes in powder performance of reasonable periods of time, say 20-30 years? Are you aware that Hercules stored a portion of the original run of Unique and tested it against every subsequent run for nearly a hundred years? Did you happen to read Bob Bell's article in Handloaders Digest #7 on testing WWII surplus H-4895? And how do you know if powder is "fresh"? The major brands routinely store powder in bulk and only package as needed. Why do you conclude that problems with milsurp ammo are powder problems? Generations of military match shooters shooters have obtained improved accuracy by substituting commercial bullets for military bullets of the same weight with no change in any other component. I'm always willing to learn. If you have any hard data or actual test experience, trot it on out.

March 5, 2006, 05:18 PM	#20
B9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 465	Leftoverdj. I don`t believe I wrote, that I did any tests. What I wrote was. From, experience and reading.Here is my Trot. Some such reading comes from Speer Reloading Manual #11 page 33 LOT UNIFORMITY “ Quote” Powder manufactures strive to maintain a high degree of uniformity between lots of powder sold under the same label. This effort has been quite successful for many years, but recently, some wide lot-to-lot variations have found in Factory-Fresh (That Sir is my reply to your question of what is Fresh and not surplus and why David Tubb, one of the most renowned rifle shooters in history, buys enough powder of the same lot # to last the shooting season.) canister powders. These are popular powders that are widely used by hand loaders. It will be noted that specific recommendations in the charge tables are often at considerable variation with earlier Speer data, and some data from other sources. These revisions were made necessary by unexpected variation in burning characteristics in lots of the same powder. From. Hornaday, Vol 1 Fifth Edition page 38. “Quote” The table of relative burning rates we present here is informational rather than prescriptive; It is definitely not a powder substitution chart. Not only do powders vary from lot to lot and year to year of manufacture, their relative burning rates may very from cartridge to cartridge. “Quote” From the above Speer manual pg 32. STORAGE. Proper storage of powders requires that they be kept in a dry place with even, cool temperature. They should be kept in the original factory containers. Glass makes a poor powder container. Light, like elevated temperature, accelerates decomposition of smokeless powder. Stored under proper conditions, shelf life of modern smokeless powder is practically indefinite. But if exposed to heat and/ or light, it may last only a few months. How old is surplus? I suppose it can be from a recent factory overrun, but if it was recent 2-3 years. The factory sure needs some management help, and since it can be kept indefinite under the right conditions why would they sell it as surplus? It must have been a monster overrun. It could have been a large batch they had stored for the use in military weapons. The bullet manufactures produce large amounts of ammo fully loaded cartridges that the military stores for future use. Within a certain time limit the military sell it. And that is what I buy to shoot as it has been stored properly “mostly” with the primer pockets sealed and no light can get to the powder. Some of this is well over 20 yrs old. Why do they sell it? If it not reliable enough for our military. Why would I want to use it for compition,hunting or self-defense. Nor would I use surplus powder either. I really don`t care what you shoot, that is your choice, not mine. I was trying to pass on what I know; to people that may care about what they shoot. It maybe that someone here would like to compete agents David Tubb a National NRA Highpower Champion 6-7 + times. With your attitude I can tell you will never be that person, shooting surplus powder. Plink away, and let professionals write the reloading manuals and win National Champion Matches. I have already given you my experience. I hope your surplus powder was cared for properly.

March 5, 2006, 06:09 PM	#21
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	B9mmHP, your points are well taken. You are, of course, correct. BUT, with a little trial and error type of load work-up, you can overcome the obstacles of the aging,(if any), and the unknown lot variations of the surplus powder. As long as there's some idea of where the burn rate falls,(what number of commercial powder IE H-335), to use in initial load work-up. Since most of what I've been buying comes in 8 pound jugs, it's worth the effort to work up a load for each new jug of powder. It takes even me a long time to shoot up 8 lbs. of powder. I can get 2,330 rounds of .223 from an 8 pound jug of WC-844! Up to a couple years of rattle battles, plinking, pin shoots, 3 gun, and other fun shooting. I just shot an incredible 3/8 inch 5 shot group with my bushy AR-15, using the WC-844, r-p cases ww sr primers, 24.0 grains of 844, hornady 60 grain hollow points,(2275), @ 100 yds. A second group with the same powder charge went into 3/4 inch! This was during a load work-up, I came back and loaded the rest of the box of bullets and another box. I can't wait for another day like yesterday to see if the accuracy holds! The risk, in my opinion, is small. While I don't have a pressure barrel, I DO have a chrongraph. Also I have a micrometer that reads to .0001. With it and the chrono, I can "read" velocity and case head/pressure ring expansion. This will keep me safe from dammage to my rifles or handguns. That's if I were to be pushing the envelope to max loads. I'd say that for a beginner reloader, you should stay with commercial canister grade powders. Treading in unknown waters is for old farts like me.

March 5, 2006, 06:46 PM	#22
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	BM9mm, "experience" implies some actual shooting. The quotes you supplied certainly don't amount to a warning that surplus powder is unsuitable for serious use. Lot to lot variation is of major concern only when changing lots and it applies to canister powder, as well. As surplus is generally sold in 8 pound jugs and I buy several jugs at a time, it is not much of a concern other than the initial load development. My rifles will tell me what a load is doing. If X charge shoots into .75 MOA at 2800 fps, I'm good to go hunting whether that powder is surplus or canister, a week old or 30 years. It's the results that matter, not how you get them. It happens that I have done a fair amount of shooting of surplus powders. I recently reached the end of a case of 5744 that I had bought about 20 years ago and it was surplus when I bought it. I found no observable change in accuracy or velocity between the last of the old lot and the brand new can I bought. A slight difference would not have surprised me as normal lot to lot variation, but I did not find even that, much less any indication of impaired performance. I still have some to the original surplus lot of what is now AA-3100. It's still giving the same results it gave when I bought it, but I am down to 3-4 pounds of the original 32 pounds. I still have a partial jug of surplus H-322 and can detect no change. I've seen deteriorated powder, and it's unmistakeable with a red dust and an acrid reek. That happened to be canister H 4227 that had been left exposed to direct sunlight a few years. I've never seen it in surplus.

March 5, 2006, 07:12 PM	#23
B9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 465	snuffy You are correct. My reply was to leftoverdj. But I do welcome your input. I see nothing wrong with reloading surplus powder, as long as it is not used for hunting or self defence. Competition is your choice, if you like. Can you imagine a trophy Buck,Antilop "sp" etc: walking away when you spent $2,000 + for a hunt, because you used surplus powder. However I do use reloads for hunting with Fresh powder. I just can not imagine someone using any surplus powder or cartridges for self defence, I don`t even use reloads for it. I use Hornady 124gr 9mm TAP for my carry weapon, it is low flash for shooting at night,"no blinding from the flash" I also use A chronograph for my reloads. Well, I have to go feed my dog. With Fresh dog food.

March 5, 2006, 07:48 PM	#24
B9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 465	leftoverdj Do what you want. I just feed my dog fresh food, not surplus. You read my posts, if you don`t like it live with it.:barf: I wont reply to anymore of your posts on this thread, but maybe others. And I have done, actually shooting, probably more than you, but not with surplus powder. Have a nice day.