swaged or cast?

[Remington kid]

For as long as I can remember I have used swaged balls except in my .32 Penn. long rifle squirrel snuffer. It was so accurated with either that it never seemed to matter. In my .40 and .45 rifles I always used swaged as well as my Remington .44, it likes the swaged .454. For some of you who cast your own do you find much difference in accuracy from swaged to cast?
I'm guessing at long range it may make a difference but not at realistic ranges. What do you all think?
It seems to me that casting may be a fun winter project but the last time I casred anything was as a kid when My Dad and I made lead soldiers. That was back before they knew lead was bad for you. Guess I should have been dead a long time ago from chewing on the lead figures

[gmatov]

RK,

If you want to cast balls, get yourself a 36. As Gatefeo says, they should take a 380 ball and they are hard to come by. Just bought the last 300 from Barkerstown, and the guy says they might be the last 380 Swaged Ball in the country, as he can't find another supplier.

You can buy all the swaged 44 you want, in whatever diameter. Cast some 380.

If you want to have fun and save some money, cast your 44s, too. I found one site selling pure lead for 95 cents a pound, shipped. About 48 ball to the pound, 2 bucks a 100, where you're probably paying from 7 to 9 bucks a 100.

Electric melting pot for about 40 bucks, 22 bucks for a double cavity Lee mould, complete with handles, 20 bucks for the first thousand balls worth of lead. 80 bucks spent, every ball after that is 2 cents each, plus your time, which you said could be an enjoyable winter past time.

Lead can be got cheaper at a scrap yard that takes in old lead pipe from old house renovation, or talk to plumbers in your area, ask them if you can buy the old lead pipes. Lots of crud built up in those old pipes, so don't pay scrap yard price for it. Lots of dross to skim off the top of the melter, but the pipes were pure lead.

I don't think you will see much difference in shooting the 2, cast or swaged. Swaged is easier for the bullet maker, feed a stick of lead into a cutoff tool, cut off, sa, 145 grain chunk, drop into a set of dies, all automatic, force the dies together, out pops a ball. Faster than casting, the lead gotta chill enough to open the mold, so more money per hour of machine time.

I don't think you'll see a difference in shooting. You gotta swage it into the chamber, making it shaped just a little like a double ended torpedo, 454 front to back, 450 side to side. It ain't round no more. More like a just barely conical with a round bottom.

Then, too, measure some of them swaged balls you bought, 8 or 10 different places around. Be at least 5 or 6 different dimensions, just from being banged against each other in the box from shipping. Did that last night with the 380 that just come in. 377 to 384, dimpled like a golf ball.

Damn, I was gonna buy a mould to give the s'in'law's old man, a casting fool, to make ball for me. Now you got me thinkin' I should buy a melting pot and have somethin' to do over the Winter.

Cheers,

George

[gmatov]

RK,

Aw, man, you just cost me some money. After our last discourse, I went to a site and ordered a melting pot and both 380 and 451 moulds, like 71 bucks, shipped. Moulds were about 14 bucks for double cavity, looked a little more at other places, were 26 or more. You gotta watch where you shop, they will screw you every time.

Kept at the Google, and found another place National Bullet Co., bag of 500 swaged ball for about 18 bucks, 3.60 per 100, and cram as much as you can in the USPS box for 7.70. Shipping included, 41 bucks for 1000 balls, 500 380, 500 451.

Price dropped 10% when I ordered the second item, on both.

Here is the address: http://nationalbullet.com/index.php

You gotta hunt a little to find round ball, but, hey, can you beat the price?

Cheers,

George

[tinker2]

Remington kid

I shoot both cast and swaged. My cast balls are a little harder
then the swaged one. Not too hard for the revolver but not pure
lead. Some of my rifles balls are a little harder yet. Some of the
swaged balls were deforming when I was loading them. Some of
my rifles that have the deepest rifling like the harder cast balls.

So tell me more about your squirrel snuffer. What are you shooting
in it. At this time I like my .32 and .34 the most to shoot of my bp
long guns. I shoot ff g in the .32, barrel & lock and fff g in the .34
Would you believe that the .34 shoots it best with 70 grains.
It also likes the harder cast balls.

[Remington kid]

[IMG][/IMG]Tinker, Back in 89 I broke my back in 3 places along with many other injuries and it took me about 2 years to even start to heal so Im had time on my hands but a lot of pain in my body. To keep my mind off things I started building muzzle loaders from scratch.Through a friend who worked at a muzzle loading shop I was able to pick the 2.5 x 6 curly maple for the stock and then I chose the green river barrles Everything was by hand except the roughing out of the stock for the barrel and works inlay.My first was a .45 and it took me over 300 hours. I could only do a little at a time but wanted to see how long it would take total time. The dove tail for the sights were cut in useing a hack saw ,cold chisle and 2 sided 3 corner files.
Anyway I built 4 of them, 2 for my sons and 2 for me. I inlayed a 1989 penny in the stock of each one along with all the other inlays.It was a great learning thing and kept my mind and hands busy.
My wife has a picture of me sitting at a pick-a-nick table working on one of the guns in my yard and there are 22 turkeys all around me as if I wasn't there and I even had country music playing on the radio. We fead them and the deer all the time so I guess they just weren't afraid on me.
Anyway after sighting them in I found that my .32 loves 55g. of 3f and a wonder lube patch. At 30 yards from a bench rest I can keep all the shots in a half dollar . The .45 likes 70g. of 3f and at 70 yards will knock a deer on it's butt

[Remington kid]

George, Thank you for all the info. I know about the plumbers useing pure lead and another good sorce is the lineman for the phone company.That's where I would get mine and it's free and about as pure as you can get.
I did some checking on the molds and pots but the prices you got are a lot cheaper than what I found. I'm going to save that link and maybe order after Christmas. Santa has just about broke me for this year but right after the first I should be bale to get what I need including my Navy 61 .36 and I will need the 380 balls for that.Talked to a guy the other night who cast .389 for his .36 and he say's they are so accurate that it's unreal.He's going to send me a couple to try when I get my Navy. Severl people have told me to stay way from the wheel weights because the lead is to hard and you need to ad some tin and so on.
Thank's for all the info you guy;'s, that really helps.

[gmatov]

RK,

He's wrong on 1 thing, the wheel weights. They are hard, and you have to add a lot of LEAD to get them down to soft enough. Tin hardens up lead, and antimony hardens it up even more.

A test would be to cast a ball and see if you can even squish it into the chamber. With a 7 1/2 or 8 inch barrel's rammer handle, a lead ball is fairly easy. If you gotta put a cheater pipe on it to get it seated, it is too hard.

Another site says to use whatever scrap you can find, including wheelweights, and if you think about it, why would they raise pressures? If they are a close fit to the chamber, say 2 thou shave, still a seal, they are gonna go down the barrel. Don't think they are gonna burst anything, well, mebbe an original Walker with the cast iron cylinders.

Did you see the Original Walker's price is something like 148,000 bucks? Damn!!!

Innyhoo, I spent about 115 bucks for balls and for casting equipment last night. No biggie. Might take me a while to shoot the ball, but then I can cast them as I need them, never have to wait for them to come in again.

Cheers,

George

[Remington kid]

Yep, I look at the old guns all the time and the pricees is unreal but they get it. Thanks again for all the info.

[Old Dragoon]

I don't feel too bad then, I spent $130.00 for 500 .248 Grn 44 Rem bullets, a 44 Rem crimper for the 44 Rem loading of the 44 Colt, and a luber/sizer for the cartridges (they are sized after loading.) I had the crimper made adjustable for 44 Colt, 44 spec. and 44 Rem Mag cases. I can use all three in the konverter as long as I cut rim dia down. However the 44 Rem Mag case is too long with the 248 Grn bullet, pokes their little noses out the chamber mouth. Cylinder don't rotate when that happens. I do have another .451 heeled bullet mould that will work.

I figured out that the 44 special case and the 248 Grn bullet with 35 grains BP approximates the Original 45 LC loading of 250 Grn bullet and 35 Grn BP, Will update when I get them loaded and shot.

Time to set up my RCBS Crusher and my Lyman Luber/sizer. I bought both at a gunshow a few years back, $20.00 for the RCBS and $10,00 for the Lyman 450 full of some kind of brown soft lube. I could hardly get the money out quick enough. Have loaded and lubed several rounds with both.
I have a set of 44 Colt dies also.

I like using my Lyman Ideal 310 hand loader on cold winter nights. I'll load 100 per night. Same with my hand primer, set around at night and prime cases

Colder than a Montana well diggers shovel here this morning, we're not used to 19 degrees and 40 mile an hour winds. BRRR

[tinker2]

Remington Kid
I broke my back in June of 1991 so I know about lots of
time on your hands. Your .32 looks great and sounds
like it shoots the same. Very nice. I did not make mine,
it’s a Pedersoli flintlock in .32 It is to heavy for me after
I messed up my back but I’m not going to have it sawed
off into something lighter. I am open to any ideas for a
very short and very light rifle.

If I get wheel weights, as long as you don’t flux the pot,
you can skim off the dross/slag and you will end up with
pure lead.

[Remington kid]

Tinker, It's been a while sice I have seen any but do a search for "Buggy Rifles" they are short, light and shoot great! A friend of mine had one years ago and it was a .22. Nicest little .22 muzzle loader I ever shot....Hell, it was the first and last ,22 muzzle loader I ever shot! The biggest caliber I ever seen in a buggy gun was .50 and that will take any game in North America.
Thanks for the tip on the wheel weights. The guy's from the phone company said they could get me plenty of it when Im ready so I'll stick with the pure stuff

[mec]

It was a long time before I tried wheel weights except for modern pistol and rifle bullets. The limited amount of caplock shooting I have done with them has been unproblematic. Ive gotten exceptional groups with the Lyman Plains pistol both with ball and Lee R.E.A.L bullets and lee conicals in .44 revolver. Loading is little if any more difficult than with pure lead.

Still, I don't enjoy bullet casting as much as I did for the first quarter century or more and really appreciate the availability of swaged store balls. I still do it to get projectiles not otherwise available and have had good luck casting .380s for my 61 Navy in the lee mould.

[Remington kid]

Mec, The 61 Navy is the one that I have been looking at. Can you tell me anything you have found good or bad about yours or problems to look for? Thanks , Mike

[Old Dragoon]

Tinker2,
There used to be a swivel breech cap lock that had 20 or 22 inch bbls. It was short enough and light enoughto jam in your Mt. Man belt and walk around with.
The 32 Cal I built was 11/16th across the flats 40 inch long bbl. by Bill Large. The whole thing done loded and ready to fire weight in at about 4 1/2 lbs. on a still day I could kill my share of pop cans at 100 yds, and it was killer on squirrels and Whistle pigs. Bill Large told me before he died that he ruined 3 or 4 bbls like mine to get one good one, so he stopped making them that small across the flats.
Perhaps a boys rifle in a small cal.? I had Art Holly make a rifle for my wife at the time it weighrd about 3 1/2 lns with the same bbl, but only 23 Inche long, bedford county style Caplock. It shot just as well as mine.
look on the auction sites I think there are some lighter rifles out there still.
Wish I could find a supplier for those small bbls, I think there is still a market for that type squirrel gun.

[gmatov]

Tinker,

I don't think if you skim you are removing the tin. It's an alloy, now. If you want to separate them , it has to be electrolitically.

Lee sells a hardness tester to see what you actually have, per Brinell hardness, about 28 bucks on one site I have been to. Lead is X, lead + 5, 10, 15% tin will be different. Wheel weights, with possible antimony, will be harder yet.

Cheers,

George

[mec]

This one is neck and neck with my 60 army for outright shootable accuracy. All I did to the sight was to open the hammer notch for better visibility andit hits right on at 25 yards. It even shoots very well with .375 balls even though they start into the chambers a bit loose.- I usually use .380s though.

Take a look at these:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...ht=uberti+navy

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...ht=uberti+navy

[Remington kid]

Mec, Thanks for the info! Great pictures and write up's , it looks like you were really having fun.

[Old Dragoon]

Mec,
That IS a handsome rig! and better yet it SHOOTS. The stock is a good thing to put in the plus column of the '61 Navy over the '51.
Have you had any trouble with the walking beam rammer other than polishing the works of it?.
I hate these Great rigs, ideas, more things to look for, more money, ah well that's why we like that sulphur smell.

[tinker2]

Remington Kid
I have a short barreled under hammer buggy rifle in .34 caliber.
The barrel is 1” by 21” With my back it is uncomfortable offhand.
The trade gun next to it ( the longest one ) is the lightest one
not counting the revolver with the should stock. At this time,
this is the lightest ones that I have. The revolver needs to be
retired/replaced.
The trade gun is the only one in the picture that I made.
I need/want something short, light, and not needed for hunting.

The .22 caliber muzzle loader would be fun. I might want some
thing like that. If you have any more that you remember about
that I would sure like to hear about it. Cap lock, flint, inline,
underhammer.


Old Dragoon
“There used to be a swivel breech cap lock that had 20 or 22
inch bbls. It was short enough and light enoughto jam in your
Mt. Man belt and walk around with.”

Maybe this? I been looking.
“Rocky Mountain Arms: A completely different design of black
powder rifle featuring a unique swivel breech in .22, 36, 44
caliber.”

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=150960

“The 32 Cal I built was 11/16th across the flats”

I like that. I think that I have a 15/16 barrel but that’s
the smallest I think I have. Parts I got. Ideas not so much.

What is a Whistle pigs?[IMG][/IMG]

[mec]

"Have you had any trouble with the walking beam rammer other than polishing the works of it?. "

The creaping, or ratcheted rammer of the 1860 Army/61 Navy???
I understand that the little pegs and holes can become worn but I've had no problem with them. I have had 51s and dragoons that kick the rammer loose under recoil and let it drop down but my navy and army and several other's I've shot have not had that problem.

In the past, regardless of company of origin, I had a lot of problem with broken trigger /bolt springs with no reliable souce for replacements. In the last few years, the only parts I've had to replace were a couple of hand/spring assemblies. The current Uberti parts have a useful service life and you can get spares from VTI gun parts and Cimarron arms. I've pre-fitted several hand assemblies for my navy and army (same fit works with both.)

[Old Dragoon]

Tinker2
Whistle pigs are Groundhogs.
Have you never heard one whistle? Actually is is more of a series of squeaks or squeals, but it sounds like a whistle.

I really like your trade guns and isn't that a buggy rifle in the picture? Nice Guns!! OK I went back and read yoiur post Wow the Buggy Rifle is 1 inch across the flats, I didn't know they made them that big.

13/16 X 45 Cal makes for a light rifle also. 45 Cal is the largest Cal. you can put in a 13/16 bbl I think. Cut the bbl short. You'd have to check the twist so it'd shoot well. but you could get almost two short bbls out of one 40" long bbl. If that 13/16 were to be of the swamped variety that takes more weight out also.

Hope this helps some.

[Remington kid]

Tinker2,The one my friend had looked like a small version of a Hawkin and it was really old. That thing was accurate too!
I'll keep and eye out and if I hear or see anything like that I'll let you know.

[Steve499]

My son has a .32 Hawken style rifle I got him when he was about 12. I was hoping he'd get hooked on muzzle loaders but it just didn't happen. Anyway, I think it was a CVA and was quite small, like it was made as a boy's rifle. I don't have it here to measure anything and my son is in Fargo ND on a job for a week so I don't even have access to it until he gets back. It would definately be one of the lighter rifles you would find assuming they are still available.

Back in the early 70s, there was a write-up in one of the gun magazines about a rifle which was supposedly going to be in production soon. It was a breech loading system similar to the Hall where the chamber tipped up for loading. It used a #4 buck as the bullet. The bore was smaller than the chamber so the ball was swaged down some upon firing.I don't remember much more about it except that I decided to buy one when they came out. They never did or if so, I haven't heard about it. That rifle was also small and handy. Too bad it didn't make it.

Steve