Home Invasion

[mrcalm7]

How many folks have actually experienced a home invasion? Not a friend of a friend story. Actually been involved in one is what I'm looking for. TIA

[krept]

Erick,

on the ones that you worked, were there any similarities? i.e. time of day, location of house related to main streets/other houses, lack or presence of alarm systems, dogs? Surely there were done with different crews and different MOs...

I'm just wondering if there were any conclusions like always at nighttime, no alarm system, suburban neighborhood, etc. that you noticed.

thanks,
Erik

[mrcalm7]

I'm talking about the Charlie Manson, come in kill everything and run out kind. The tragic home invasion where they intend to harm people and leave. In my experience, most people live in a suburb where this doesn't happen that much.

I'm a big 2nd Amend fan, but all the talk about what people keep under their beds for home defense just seems a little much. How often are people breaking into other people's homes with the intent of doing them bodily harm?

[raz-0]

It only takes one guy who thinks a house is empty to come in, be startled, and try to maim you to need tools of self defense. I've been at home a couple times in my life when someone tried to enter for nefarious purposes. Both of which were very confrontational until presented with a serious threat, at which point they left rapidly.

It dosen't take a cult or gang to leave you maimed or dead.

[Quartus]

Bingo. Just because a classic home invasion is unlikely doesn't mean that being prepared is paranoid. If you are living in constant fear and jumping at every noise, something's wrong. But simply being ready isn't living in fear.

Cost vs. benefit. If you are a shooter anyway, the cost of keeping something handy is nil. The benefit is (potentially) living instead of dying.


Kind of like seat belts. The probability of actually needing one is small. The benefit of having it when you need it is large.

[The Plainsman]

but in my opinion at the time and today, many years later, it was as close as I'd care to get.

I was thirteen and home babysitting my younger sibs, all of whom were asleep at the time. It was about 10:00pm on a Saturday night. The doorbell rang and when I answered it (behind a locked storm door), a man wanted in to use the phone (he said). When I declined, he became agitated and demanded entrance.

I quickly slammed the door and locked it. I ran to the back door to make sure it was locked. Then I went to my parents' room and retrieved my dad's .22 Winchester Mod. 69, and called my parents to come home (waaayyyy pre-911).

Our house was built so that the kitchen and family room windows were at ground level and the back door opened into a stairwell that stepped up to ground level. It was the only part of the house that I was worried about at the time since it wouldn't have taken much to kick in a window to gain entrance.

I took the rifle (loaded and cocked) to the family room and waited for Dad to get home. In the meantime, the man was running around the house, peering in the family room and kitchen windows and demanding entrance. Finally, he began to kick at the back door. I fired one round at the door, not knowing (nor caring) what I hit. The kicking stopped and man "went away", but not before he returned to the front door and repeatedly rang the doorbell.

When my dad and the police arrived (about simultaneously), they found what the police said later, was blood on the doorbell, raising the question of whether I had hit something. The police never found anyone who might have been the perp, but I learned very profoundly, that guns are pretty handy under certain circumstances, with NO workable substitutes.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it, 51 years later.

[mrcalm7]

That sounds like a perp with bad intentions to me. There was more than one occasion when I wish I had been packin on the street. But how many have had someone try to physically enter the house, and go for the jugular? I have a big rotty/shepard mix. One thud and he's up like a maniac. Best dang protection out there IMO. Better than an alarm, gun, baseball bat, tear gas, or cop.

In my case, I live in a good neighborhood where for the most part everyone are friends or at least very civil. I have law enforcement living next door and federal lawmen one block over. What I'm really trying to get at is, do we really have to be so prepared for a what if scenario? Are we doing ourselves justice by being armed to the teeth? Or are we giving someone a reason to enter our property because we now own some perp wants to steal? I don't condone giving up one weapon. But I'm not really sure we should openly flaunt what we have.

[Quartus]

One thud and he's up like a maniac. Best dang protection out there IMO. Better than an alarm, gun, baseball bat, tear gas, or cop.

Yep, as far as a first line goes. But if there are multiple perps, one dog is not enough.

In my case, I live in a good neighborhood

Oh, you mean the kind where there's enough money to make a robbery worth while?

where for the most part everyone are friends or at least very civil.

Well, except for drug dealers, I suspect most home invasions are not about grudges.

I have law enforcement living next door and federal lawmen one block over.

That helps. Hope the perps know that.

What I'm really trying to get at is, do we really have to be so prepared for a what if scenario?

Nope. You can sell all your guns and put up a "No guns here" sign if you want to. It's your call. Whatever you're comfortable with.

Are we doing ourselves justice by being armed to the teeth?

Only if you wind up needing it some night.

Or are we giving someone a reason to enter our property because we now own some perp wants to steal? I don't condone giving up one weapon. But I'm not really sure we should openly flaunt what we have.

Well, maybe that's why some of us don't use our real name and post our address on the Internet. If I tell you everything I have in the course of discussing home defense, and you are a criminal, you still won't be able to act on the info, will you? All you know is the state I live in. That's not much help to a robber - there are a few other people here, too.

And, oddly enough, I don't post an inventory of my valuables on my front door either. Not even a "This house protected by Smith & Wesson" sign.

[mrcalm7]

Since you had no problem flaming my post you might want to remember a couple of things. Just because you type into here doesn't make you invisible. Everyone that posts gives away their ip_address. Once someone has that they essentially own you. Have a nice day. :barf:

[raz-0]

so mrcalm7, which of the gajillions of comcast customers am I?

Your response is a fairly sorry reply to someone who was rebutting your comments item for item.

It doesn't require an organized group to justify a need for self defense. The fact that organized home invasions bent on violence are relatively rare doesn't mean that there is no threat form the much more common B&E thug. Especially with three strikes rules.

Also, just because there are people who will try to steal your stuff, does not justify anyone's rational that you should own less stuff, or less valuable stuff.

You want a $50,000 gun collection, go right ahead. but you might want to consider part of your collection a serious UL listed safe. If not a vault. It's called taking sensible precautions.

[krept]

ok, relax (please) Mr Calm

as Quartus hinted at here

Yep, as far as a first line goes.

weapons are the very last in a system of layered defenses. If you have a dog that is a good thing but some people cannot. That was one reason why I asked Erick if he noticed a trend in a home invasion. I'd be surprised if a hit happens without any casing involved.

Paranoia is a phychological problem. Preparedness is simply taking care of things when they are easy, before an actual problem arises. Sun Tzu had a great quote about the wise doing things way beforehand where they are easy and that applies here... an ounce of prevention and all of that.

I would be surprised if anyone here has experienced a home invasion but it is an interesting topic.

For what it's worth, when my wife was about 10 she was at home with her two smaller brothers when three large minority males kicked the door in and came in with baseball bats and maybe a knife. They were looking for her dad who was a biker (HA) at the time and owed them money. The proceeded to take the TV and some other appliances and ransacked the place, ranting and raving, looking for her father... didn't really get much because they were poor but nonetheless it was quite disturbing. Thankfully, nothing else happened to them and they left relatively quickly.

Out here in the Phoenix area there was a string of home invasions. The DPS busted some of them... here is a link http://www.dps.state.az.us/news/HomeInvasion.pdf

notice how they say

The growing concern with these types of home invasions is that many times, the suspects target the wrong home by accident and innocent citizens are then victimized by these aggressive acts. Several unexplained home invasions have taken place where these suspects have used force to injure innocent victims.

cheers

[krept]

Also, just because there are people who will try to steal your stuff, does not justify anyone's rational that you should own less stuff, or less valuable stuff.

Exactly. The purpose is to be low key and not to flaunt it. If you want to express yourself and wear gold, have Glock stickers on your car and clean your guns in the garage that perfectly fine but it does cause more eyes to fall on you and thus increases the chance you will be a target. This is a paradigm... if you act like a high roller out and about the town then you might not get your home invaded but you might still get robbed and chances are your rottie won't be with you. Isn't armed robbery more frequent than home invasion anyways? Having a weapon pulled on you in the street means a lot of things have already gone wrong and you can still end up just as dead as in a home invasion gone wrong, but I digress...

My advice-layer.

First is to take care of the area outside your home. Google the word CPTED.

Then you secure your perimeter, then inside.

When you have done as much as you can, as much as you consider reasonible then you can and should relax without being paranoid.

Again, try not to take everything as if people here are spitting darts, that's not my intention and I don't think it's theirs. There are just some things you can't do anything about other than make relatively feeble preparations. Home invasion is right up there with total SHTF. Might as well be a house-sized SHTF.

fwiw,

cheers

(edit, here is a good link to CPTED http://www.cpted-watch.com/Dwellings.htm#Singlefamily it doesn't really touch on motion detecting lights, stuff like that but it's a good foundation towards a solid plan)

[Quartus]

mrcalm, that wasn't a flame, it was friendly disagreement. If I could manage to include tone of voice with my keyboard, you'd have heard a calm, reasonable discussion of your points, rather like you might hear in a friendly barbershop conversation. If I'd wanted to flame, EVERYONE would have known it.

If you were expecting everyone to just nod and comment on how wise you are, you came to the wrong place. We try to keep it friendly, and if we can't manage that, at least civil, but blindly agreeing with every post isn't part of the game here.


Interesting screen name you have...


BTW, if you are trying to point out that some people go overboard, well, no disagreement here. Everybody has to find his comfort level. Evil exists in this world, and bad things happen to good people. Individual reactions to that run the gamut from

"fingers-in-my-ears-I-can't-hear-you-la-la-la-la"

to

"I've got 3 alarm systems, hired security, 4 Dobermans in the house and a gun stashed in each room and I'm STILL awake most nights wondering who might be about to break in."

You fit somewhere on that scale. I fit in a different place, I'd guess. Other people fit somewhere else. Is there any problem with discussing it?

[Quartus]

Google the word CPTED.

Interesting how quickly Google has become a verb!


That's good info, krept. Thanks!

[Chip Dixon]

mrcalm,

Your sig is the old quote those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it, and you're saying that all these stories about people keeping guns under their bed for self defense is a little much?

You have heard of home invasions. They exist. The fact that they are uncommon doesn't matter. If it does happen, that Mossberg 500A loaded under the bed and the 1911A1 under the pillow could make all the difference. There's a lot of sick, depraved individuals out there who would gladly splatter you on the wall to get another bag of dope or crack. Don't let yourself be a victim. Your dog is the best alarm money can buy, I agree. But it is an easy target for a maniac who is armed, and then you'll need your gun. You really should be prepared for the "what if" scenario. If this "what if" scenario happens, it's not like getting a flat tire and needing to get towed because you don't have a spare, it's getting shot and killed because you thought you didn't need to have anything to protect yourself with. Big difference there. Maybe it's overkill if you have a safe room with a Ma Deuce mounted on a tripod in there aiming at the entrance door, but having a shotgun or AR and pistol is just being reasonable. This is the real world, after all. There's no coming back from the dead.

I pity the perp that comes for my guns. Anyone who fears that owning guns is going to make them a victim shouldn't own guns, as you're probably one of those types who couldn't use one if you had to. You should be confident that your proficiency with your firearms and your acquaintance with your SHTF plan will prevent you from becoming a victim.

I agree with the sentiment about not flaunting them all over the neighborhood, though. However, posting that you have a shotgun in TFL or THR isn't being careless. Posting that you have $10,000 in guns and no safe and your address may be, though. Not if you never leave said house, though

[rwilson452]

My Mossberg is beside the bed. my 1911 is on the night stand when it's not on my person. Both are within arms reach. I'm sure this will give Hellery and the Brady Bunch the heebee jeebees. What the heck, I'm an adult and live alone. My children are grown and gone with families of their own and live half a continent away for the closest and all the way across for the other one. Then again my son is preparing to go to some place called Mosul. Anyone who might visit knows better than to try to sneak up my stairs, you can't.

[VeT|Us]

Does it count if the perp didnt get in?
If so, We've had 7.

(My first post so maybe I should say something about myself)

Im 18, and since my older brothers have both moved out, and my dad left when I was 6, Im the man of the house now.
Wasn't really any problems around here for a long time, until we had alot of attempted brake-ins.

7 where people have walked around our house between 1am - 5am, checking doors, trying to force open windows etc. 1 time I had to rack the shotgun in front of the backdoor to get the message through, and once I came reeeeal close to firing through the backdoor when someone tried to kick it in.

Funny thing is, my mom didnt like guns before this started to happen.
Now she does, and she even bought me an 870

She still doesnt like my knives though...

[carebear]

Knives look eviler to moms. Gunshots are abstract but they've seen nasty cuts before.

[Tex570]

Everyone that posts gives away their ip_address. Once someone has that they essentially own you. Have a nice day.

Assuming they aren't behind a proxy or better yet chaining proxies together, you can learn which ISP they use. Does the ISP keep track of who has what IP at what time? Can you sucessfully hack the ISP and find the needed information to "own" them? Are you willing to take the gamble that the net admin of the ISP doesn't know [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] he's doing and you can get in and out successfully?

All this just for getting flamed (in your mind) on a messageboard...

[mrcalm7]

Okay, okay, I went overboard. I admit it. You're right about the tone thang. Posting doesn't give you a tone, so it's easy to overreact. Just like if you broke into my house, you better come in shooting. See what I mean. Anyhoo, no hard feelings I hope. Just learning the ropes here. Like what I've read so far and just want to be a part of it.

One point that someone brought up. Most people who want to rob your house, will do it when you're not in it. Like during the day. Or they'll case it to make sure you're not there. My step dad had his father's house (deceased) burgularized by junkies when he wasn't there. They broke in thru the basement window ransacked it and proceeded to shoot up. Nice, eh? Professionals usually choose the daytime when your neighbors are out and about as well. Break in, open the garage door, back the minivan in and viola, they get everything they came for. Alarms just make them speed up. They're on the clock anyway. For me, having an 850 lb safe bolted to the basement floor helps, as does the animal (thinking about getting another). But I'll never have peace of mind from a pro-criminal. And yes I do have the 45 Peacemaker under the bed (in a quick release safe) and the a bunch of nasty shotguns locked in the MB closet. That includes a SASS double barrel, a Mossberg 8 shot Preacher gun, and a few things I don't want to talk about. So like I said, if you come to my house, come in shooting, you might stand a chance.

Sincerely,

Jojo

[19114EVER]

I used to live in a nice neighborhood growing up with my mother during high school. I thought that this neighborhood was the kind where you could leave your doors unlocked during the day. I had stayed home sick because of a bad cold that turned into pnemonia. I was only 15, so there were no cars in the driveway. After lunch, I climbed the stairs to go lay down and watch tv in my room. When my foot hit the top of the landing, I heard the front door open. I knew it was the front door because it was Christmas time and my mom would always put bells on the front door knob. My sister was at school, my mom and stepdad were at work and I had just talked to them on the phone and knew neither was coming home in the next few minutes.

I crept into my room to retrieve my 870. My mother wouldn't let me keep any ammo in the house, so the boom stick was completely dry. I walked out to the landing, racked the pump even though it was empty and yelled, "I've been bored all morning, wanna play?" I heard a few expletives and some hurried footsteps through the kitchen as I went down the stairs. As I rounded the hall I could see the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] fussing with the back door in the sun room because the knob's lock was very tricky.

I gave the police his description but he was never found. After my mom came rushing home from work, talked to the police, spent the next hour or two hugging me while crying, she took me out to the local sporting goods store and bought me some buckshot and sabot slugs (using my advice on ammo selection). The old boom stick was never left empty after that encounter and mom was an instant convert.

Now, the neighborhood has a bunch of houses that the owners rent out to people. Some of the new renting neighbors look a little shady. Yards aren't mowed as often as they should be. There are more junk cars in driveways. Blue strobe lights flicker more frequently outside houses at night. But one thing has stayed constant, my mom locks her doors now and stays locked and loaded and proficient with her arms. We go to the range together often and she's been steadily becoming a greater shot with my supervision. I'm very comfortable with the thought that she's not under-prepared since I don't live at home anymore.

[Quartus]

One point that someone brought up. Most people who want to rob your house, will do it when you're not in it. .....Professionals usually choose the daytime when your neighbors are out and about as well.

Yep. It's the amatuers that are dangerous. And they ARE dangerous.


No hard feelings, JoJo. BTW, since I'm an engineer I don't sweat the IP thing. There are ways to deal with it.


Hey, if it'll make you feel better, I'll go ahead and flame you:

[Quartus]

BTW, a warm welcome aboard to VeT|Us! Nice to have you with us.

[Pa.Frank]

Don't you guys feel like your being suckered in by a TROLL?

Personally I am reluctant to respond to whimsical "what if" post with political undertones, especially if the poster is a newbie. We really have no idea what he's really about. He could be an agent for HCI trying to gain an insight on our thinking to aid a political attack.

So... in response to MrCalm7, No Comment.

[mk86fcc]

...but all the talk about what people keep under their beds for home defense just seems a little much. How often are people breaking into other people's homes with the intent of doing them bodily harm?

Under the bed - no. Handy? Yes. And I don't have an answer for the question - any is too many. And I do the "layered defense" as well - if I've resorted to lethal force police dispatch will have the whole thing on their "911" tape, and there will be no doubt that I exhausted all lesser means of defense first.