30.06 vs 8mm Mauser

Slater · June 24, 2002, 10:25 PM

Anyone know how these two rounds compare ballistically (assuming standard military ball loads)?

Jamie Young · June 24, 2002, 10:41 PM

The 8mm is a heavier bullet. I'm pretty sure the krauts used a 170gr bullet. Or was it 190gr??? I get the Mauser and Enfield confused. The 30/06 round the good guys used was a much flatter shooting round. I'm pretty sure it was 150gr bullet. The 30/06 is also a better cartridge IMHO

**Art Eatman** · June 24, 2002, 10:44 PM

GI stuff, there's not a whole bunch of difference. The '06 is a bit flatter out to 300/400 yards or so...

Commercial or handloads, any .30 has more selection of bullets than any 8mm. If you need to use a bullet of 200 to 225 grains or so, the 8mm is as good as the '06, for all practical hunting purposes, since range beyond 300 yards is rarely an issue on larger animals. The '06 will be some 200 ft/sec faster, sez Mr. Hodgdon. Woopee.

, Art

Cosmoline · June 25, 2002, 12:40 AM

The .30'06 was designed in response to the the German's new 7.92x57 "S" Patrone, which was adopted a year before in 1905. The '06 is therefore the offspring of the 7.92x57, just as the Springfield 1903 is the offspring of the Mauser '98. In both cases, I would say the original is better ;-)

The write-up in Cartridges of the World describes how, particularly in WWI, the 8mm Mauser had a significant advantage over '06 Ball. Apparently the Germans used much better powders. I believe the power advantage held true during WWII, as well. Here are some figures:

7.92x57 JS 154 gr. Ball = 2,880 fps and 2,835 ft. lbs.

.30'06 150 gr. Ball = 2,740 fps and 2,500 ft. lbs.

For modern loadings, the major advantage of the 8mm Mauser is the fact that it copes with with 200 and 220 grain bullets a little better than the .30'06. The major drawback is that 8mm Mauser is loaded *WAY* down by domestic cartridge companies. I won't get into that here, though.

BigG · June 25, 2002, 05:53 AM

Cosmoline covered it pretty much. The only thing I'll add is the 7.92 was a better machinegun cartridge also than the '06.

The US Springfield Armory tried to adapt the schnell firing German MG to 30'06 but forgot that the American round is longer so their attempt was a failure.

With all due respeck to JMB, the German MGs were much better than the .30 Brownings.

Beowulf_93 · June 25, 2002, 08:04 AM

Which is why the MG-42 is still used worldwide in various patterns & the M1919 Browning is a museum piece.

Jamie Young · June 25, 2002, 08:14 AM

Since we're comparing a 30/06 from a Semi-auto vs an 8mm out of a bolt action the 8mm might have an edge. But if we compare these two cartridges both being fired from bolt actions the 30/06 has the edge. I see almost an 400fps velocity difference between the 30/06 and 8mm with 220gr bullets. The 30/06 also has the edge with 150gr.

ojibweindian · June 25, 2002, 10:13 AM

SodaPop

Are you comparing American loadings of the .30-06 and 8mm? I thought that the European loadings of the 8mm brought it to be on par with .30-06 loadings from the States.

Jamie Young · June 25, 2002, 12:56 PM

I'm comparing what My Lyman 47th book says. It says 46.5gr 2439fps with 4064 out of an '06. The 8mm can barely break 2100fps with the same bullet weight. I don't see how its better than the '06. I realize there isn't a drastic difference between the two.

BigG · June 25, 2002, 01:01 PM

The German loadings of the 8mm put it squarely in line with the '06. The US ammo companies have purposely loaded it down for junk war relics that may blow up in somebody's face.

If the truth were known I would bet that the 308 (7.62 NATO) is an off shoot of the 8mm so they could adapt the MG to the preferred US 30 caliber. The M60 has some of the features of the German MGs.

Jamie Young · June 25, 2002, 01:09 PM

Quote:

The US ammo companies have purposely loaded it down for junk war relics that may blow up in somebody's face.

That makes sense.

What German loadings? Are you talking now? Or back then? I never see German 8mm ammo around.

stinger · June 25, 2002, 01:15 PM

SodaPop,

He says German, but I think he means European spec 8mm. When it is loaded to its full potential it is MUCH more powerful than US made 8mm, cheaper too, go figure.

S&B comes to mind and there may be more out there. Is there no German 8mm currently being manufactured? Probably too much stigma involved, but who knows.

Stinger

BigG · June 25, 2002, 01:18 PM

You would have to buy it in Europe unless Norma has it here. S&B (Czech) might also have some full power loads available this side of the Atlantic.

8mm Mauser would be a current rifle cartridge chambered in Euro sporting rifles much like 30/06 is available in a Rem 700 here.

BigG · June 25, 2002, 01:23 PM

After this I'll shut up...

8mm Mauser went thru a change like the US 30/03 - 30/06. Except they changed from a .318 bore diameter to .323.

Why they went larger I have no idea. But the old smaller bore might blow back with a stoutish .323 driven down it by an overzealous shooter/handloader. The ammo manufacturers have never been known for their courage in the face of lawsuits...

I believe the Mauser was the Model 1888?

ojibweindian · June 25, 2002, 01:25 PM

I have bought several boxes of S&B and have saved the brass for the eventuality of a reloading kit. I know that S&B and Norma do sell 8x57JS here in the states. Believe it or not, I think that S&B offers 8x57JS hunting cartridge, if I correctly recall my last visit to their site.

Snowdog · June 25, 2002, 04:35 PM

Somewhere I have read that Sellier & Bellot's 196gr FMJ yields a bit over 3100 pounds of energy. You don't see too many 06's pulling that kind of power from an FMJ. They are currently the most accurate round available for my Yugo M48A.

Also, it's absolutely true there is a tremendous difference between Euro-spec 8x57 loadings and those offered by American cartridge companies. American 170gr loads offer 2100 FPE and not a drop more, and you can thank our lawsuit-happy society for that.
However, I would like to add that our 170gr American hunting loads for the 7.92x57JS are targeted for the deer hunting market, and though woefully underloaded, will take deer without a problem.

cracked butt · June 25, 2002, 06:06 PM

I shoot alot of Turkish surplus ammo for plinking. Its loaded up to German specs with 154 gr bullet pushed to right around 3000 fps out of a 29 1/2" barrel. The WWII German ammo was 198 gr, as the 154 grain ammo caused too much muzzle flash and spotty accuracy out of the shorter barrel Karabiner 98's.
The 8mm and 30-06 are very similar in performance, though handloaders have a bit of an advantage with the 30-06 because of a wider variety of bullets than is offered in 8mm. Also, alot of loading manuals tend to be very conservative with 8mm loads, Lee's loads are a joke- probably put together by a team of lawyers, Hornady's are pretty conservative, while recommended loads from the Lyman manual are pretty close to reality. Most of my rifles show signs of pressure at or just above Lyman's recommended loads.

Gewehr98 · June 25, 2002, 08:33 PM

Wouldn't running a 220gr .30 cal bullet in a .30-06 require a faster twist rate than what's normally installed in your plain-vanilla .30-06 Springfield?

SodaPop, take a look at the Accurate Arms load book. They have two separate sections devoted to the 8mm Mauser. One is U.S. (liability) spec, the other is full-patch European spec. Quite an eye-opener!

The only reason I'd buy U.S. 8mm ammo is for the brass. S&B runs their stuff closer to true.

BTW, some of the TFL family are very German in descent. My wife wasn't real keen on losing her beloved Irish Murphy name in exchange for her husband's very German moniker. Something about being called a Kraut. Go figure.

Jamie Young · June 25, 2002, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Something about being called a Kraut.

Well, when I tell everyone that My last name is really spelled "Jung" they think I'm Chinese

Quote:

some of the TFL family are very German in descent

My Dad went back to Germany a few years ago to trace our family tree. I found My great Uncle was a Commander on a "U" something or other.

www.u-boat.net

RickD · June 25, 2002, 09:32 PM

.30-06 ~= $170 to $200+ per 1,000 rounds

Portuguese .308 = $140 per 1,000 rounds.

8mm Mauser = $150 for 2,700 rounds.

Rick

BluRidgDav · June 25, 2002, 09:39 PM

We WON, Germany Lost!
Therefore .30-06 is more powerful than 8mm.
Good guys and winners shoot .30 caliber.

straightShot · June 26, 2002, 06:16 AM

Yeah, but who owns Chrysler?

DAVID NANCARROW · June 26, 2002, 07:08 AM

and who is keeping Daimler afloat? It sure isn't the crap Daimler makes!

**Art Eatman** · June 26, 2002, 08:36 AM

Aw, the Germans make good cars, sure, but they ain't that good, that they justify their too-high prices. Germany's revenge for losing WW II. America's stupidity for believing Madison Avenue's hype in the car ads.

After all, if it's expensive it's wonderful, right?

"Any fool can design a water pump for a Rolls Royce. Ya gotta be pretty danged smart to design a water pump that's $13, exchange, over the counter." -- Chevy Test Lab engineer, 1962.

About the only thing worth having out of Yurrop was the AC Bristol, after Shelby Cobra-ized it, and the Austin-Healey, after Art Eatman stuck a 'Vette motor in it and named it "Mongoose".

And VW buses ca 1970-1974...Maybe the BMW 1600...

Aw, some of the 1960s Ferraris, but I couldn't afford one of them back then, either.

They're great on making clunky or complicated guns, too. The Luger is fragile, the P-38 is clunky, and the grip on a Browning Hi-Power makes me think I'm giving sexual gratification to a banana. And whoever dreamed up that stoopid magazine disconnect oughta get a job with HCI.

Not that I'm opinionated or anything...

, Art

BigG · June 26, 2002, 09:20 AM

One thing Mauser DID RIGHT was designing his ca'tridges, particularly the 7 and 8x57 and mebbe the 6.5x55.

Even today with the improved powders and whutknot with the larger cartridges you cannot beat them very much unless you blow one heckuva lot more powder down the bore for the same size bullet. Diminishing returns, big time!

June 24, 2002, 10:25 PM	#1
Slater Member Join Date: January 19, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 84	30.06 vs 8mm Mauser Anyone know how these two rounds compare ballistically (assuming standard military ball loads)?

June 24, 2002, 10:41 PM	#2
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	The 8mm is a heavier bullet. I'm pretty sure the krauts used a 170gr bullet. Or was it 190gr??? I get the Mauser and Enfield confused. The 30/06 round the good guys used was a much flatter shooting round. I'm pretty sure it was 150gr bullet. The 30/06 is also a better cartridge IMHO __________________ Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities. www.TheRallyPoint.org Get your gun club involved!!

June 24, 2002, 10:44 PM	#3
Art Eatman Staff Lead Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 23,972	GI stuff, there's not a whole bunch of difference. The '06 is a bit flatter out to 300/400 yards or so... Commercial or handloads, any .30 has more selection of bullets than any 8mm. If you need to use a bullet of 200 to 225 grains or so, the 8mm is as good as the '06, for all practical hunting purposes, since range beyond 300 yards is rarely an issue on larger animals. The '06 will be some 200 ft/sec faster, sez Mr. Hodgdon. Woopee. , Art __________________ You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!

June 25, 2002, 12:40 AM	#4
Cosmoline Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2000 Posts: 1,080	The .30'06 was designed in response to the the German's new 7.92x57 "S" Patrone, which was adopted a year before in 1905. The '06 is therefore the offspring of the 7.92x57, just as the Springfield 1903 is the offspring of the Mauser '98. In both cases, I would say the original is better ;-) The write-up in Cartridges of the World describes how, particularly in WWI, the 8mm Mauser had a significant advantage over '06 Ball. Apparently the Germans used much better powders. I believe the power advantage held true during WWII, as well. Here are some figures: 7.92x57 JS 154 gr. Ball = 2,880 fps and 2,835 ft. lbs. .30'06 150 gr. Ball = 2,740 fps and 2,500 ft. lbs. For modern loadings, the major advantage of the 8mm Mauser is the fact that it copes with with 200 and 220 grain bullets a little better than the .30'06. The major drawback is that 8mm Mauser is loaded WAY down by domestic cartridge companies. I won't get into that here, though. __________________ "Know that the pistol has no value, we practically don't use it. We need grenades, rifles, machine guns, and explosives." Mordechai Anielewicz, April 23, 1943

June 25, 2002, 05:53 AM	#5
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	Cosmoline covered it pretty much. The only thing I'll add is the 7.92 was a better machinegun cartridge also than the '06. The US Springfield Armory tried to adapt the schnell firing German MG to 30'06 but forgot that the American round is longer so their attempt was a failure. With all due respeck to JMB, the German MGs were much better than the .30 Brownings. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

June 25, 2002, 08:04 AM	#6
Beowulf_93 Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2002 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 221	Which is why the MG-42 is still used worldwide in various patterns & the M1919 Browning is a museum piece.

June 25, 2002, 08:14 AM	#7
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Since we're comparing a 30/06 from a Semi-auto vs an 8mm out of a bolt action the 8mm might have an edge. But if we compare these two cartridges both being fired from bolt actions the 30/06 has the edge. I see almost an 400fps velocity difference between the 30/06 and 8mm with 220gr bullets. The 30/06 also has the edge with 150gr. __________________ Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities. www.TheRallyPoint.org Get your gun club involved!!

June 25, 2002, 10:13 AM	#8
ojibweindian Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2000 Location: Huntsville, Alabama Posts: 1,178	SodaPop Are you comparing American loadings of the .30-06 and 8mm? I thought that the European loadings of the 8mm brought it to be on par with .30-06 loadings from the States.

June 25, 2002, 12:56 PM	#9
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	I'm comparing what My Lyman 47th book says. It says 46.5gr 2439fps with 4064 out of an '06. The 8mm can barely break 2100fps with the same bullet weight. I don't see how its better than the '06. I realize there isn't a drastic difference between the two. __________________ Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities. www.TheRallyPoint.org Get your gun club involved!!

June 25, 2002, 01:01 PM	#10
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	The German loadings of the 8mm put it squarely in line with the '06. The US ammo companies have purposely loaded it down for junk war relics that may blow up in somebody's face. If the truth were known I would bet that the 308 (7.62 NATO) is an off shoot of the 8mm so they could adapt the MG to the preferred US 30 caliber. The M60 has some of the features of the German MGs. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

June 25, 2002, 01:15 PM	#12
stinger Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Location: west texas Posts: 772	SodaPop, He says German, but I think he means European spec 8mm. When it is loaded to its full potential it is MUCH more powerful than US made 8mm, cheaper too, go figure. S&B comes to mind and there may be more out there. Is there no German 8mm currently being manufactured? Probably too much stigma involved, but who knows. Stinger

June 25, 2002, 01:18 PM	#13
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	You would have to buy it in Europe unless Norma has it here. S&B (Czech) might also have some full power loads available this side of the Atlantic. 8mm Mauser would be a current rifle cartridge chambered in Euro sporting rifles much like 30/06 is available in a Rem 700 here. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

June 25, 2002, 01:23 PM	#14
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	After this I'll shut up... 8mm Mauser went thru a change like the US 30/03 - 30/06. Except they changed from a .318 bore diameter to .323. Why they went larger I have no idea. But the old smaller bore might blow back with a stoutish .323 driven down it by an overzealous shooter/handloader. The ammo manufacturers have never been known for their courage in the face of lawsuits... I believe the Mauser was the Model 1888? __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

June 25, 2002, 01:25 PM	#15
ojibweindian Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2000 Location: Huntsville, Alabama Posts: 1,178	I have bought several boxes of S&B and have saved the brass for the eventuality of a reloading kit. I know that S&B and Norma do sell 8x57JS here in the states. Believe it or not, I think that S&B offers 8x57JS hunting cartridge, if I correctly recall my last visit to their site.

June 25, 2002, 04:35 PM	#16
Snowdog Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2001 Location: Hendersonville, North Carolina Posts: 1,064	Somewhere I have read that Sellier & Bellot's 196gr FMJ yields a bit over 3100 pounds of energy. You don't see too many 06's pulling that kind of power from an FMJ. They are currently the most accurate round available for my Yugo M48A. Also, it's absolutely true there is a tremendous difference between Euro-spec 8x57 loadings and those offered by American cartridge companies. American 170gr loads offer 2100 FPE and not a drop more, and you can thank our lawsuit-happy society for that. However, I would like to add that our 170gr American hunting loads for the 7.92x57JS are targeted for the deer hunting market, and though woefully underloaded, will take deer without a problem. __________________ "What We Do In Life, Echoes In Eternity" -Gladiator- ************************* Brevity Is The Soul of Wit. -Shakespeare-

June 25, 2002, 06:06 PM	#17
cracked butt Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2001 Location: southeastern wisconsin Posts: 537	8mm I shoot alot of Turkish surplus ammo for plinking. Its loaded up to German specs with 154 gr bullet pushed to right around 3000 fps out of a 29 1/2" barrel. The WWII German ammo was 198 gr, as the 154 grain ammo caused too much muzzle flash and spotty accuracy out of the shorter barrel Karabiner 98's. The 8mm and 30-06 are very similar in performance, though handloaders have a bit of an advantage with the 30-06 because of a wider variety of bullets than is offered in 8mm. Also, alot of loading manuals tend to be very conservative with 8mm loads, Lee's loads are a joke- probably put together by a team of lawyers, Hornady's are pretty conservative, while recommended loads from the Lyman manual are pretty close to reality. Most of my rifles show signs of pressure at or just above Lyman's recommended loads.

June 25, 2002, 08:33 PM	#18
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,068	8mm a lot better suited for 200+ grain bullets Wouldn't running a 220gr .30 cal bullet in a .30-06 require a faster twist rate than what's normally installed in your plain-vanilla .30-06 Springfield? SodaPop, take a look at the Accurate Arms load book. They have two separate sections devoted to the 8mm Mauser. One is U.S. (liability) spec, the other is full-patch European spec. Quite an eye-opener! The only reason I'd buy U.S. 8mm ammo is for the brass. S&B runs their stuff closer to true. BTW, some of the TFL family are very German in descent. My wife wasn't real keen on losing her beloved Irish Murphy name in exchange for her husband's very German moniker. Something about being called a Kraut. Go figure. __________________ "Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round... Neural Misfires

June 25, 2002, 09:32 PM	#20
RickD Junior member Join Date: November 19, 1999 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,920	Cost of Surplus Blammo: .30-06 ~= $170 to $200+ per 1,000 rounds Portuguese .308 = $140 per 1,000 rounds. 8mm Mauser = $150 for 2,700 rounds. Rick

June 25, 2002, 09:39 PM	#21
BluRidgDav Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2001 Posts: 232	We WON, Germany Lost! Therefore .30-06 is more powerful than 8mm. Good guys and winners shoot .30 caliber. __________________ Watch your top-knot.

June 26, 2002, 06:16 AM	#22
straightShot Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2000 Location: MI, USA Posts: 655	We WON, Germany Lost! Yeah, but who owns Chrysler? __________________ Take a kid shooting.

June 26, 2002, 07:08 AM	#23
DAVID NANCARROW Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,758	and who is keeping Daimler afloat? It sure isn't the crap Daimler makes!

June 26, 2002, 08:36 AM	#24
Art Eatman Staff Lead Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 23,972	Aw, the Germans make good cars, sure, but they ain't that good, that they justify their too-high prices. Germany's revenge for losing WW II. America's stupidity for believing Madison Avenue's hype in the car ads. After all, if it's expensive it's wonderful, right? "Any fool can design a water pump for a Rolls Royce. Ya gotta be pretty danged smart to design a water pump that's $13, exchange, over the counter." -- Chevy Test Lab engineer, 1962. About the only thing worth having out of Yurrop was the AC Bristol, after Shelby Cobra-ized it, and the Austin-Healey, after Art Eatman stuck a 'Vette motor in it and named it "Mongoose". And VW buses ca 1970-1974...Maybe the BMW 1600... Aw, some of the 1960s Ferraris, but I couldn't afford one of them back then, either. They're great on making clunky or complicated guns, too. The Luger is fragile, the P-38 is clunky, and the grip on a Browning Hi-Power makes me think I'm giving sexual gratification to a banana. And whoever dreamed up that stoopid magazine disconnect oughta get a job with HCI. Not that I'm opinionated or anything... , Art __________________ You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!

June 26, 2002, 09:20 AM	#25
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	But Luger Heap Big Cool, Unk! One thing Mauser DID RIGHT was designing his ca'tridges, particularly the 7 and 8x57 and mebbe the 6.5x55. Even today with the improved powders and whutknot with the larger cartridges you cannot beat them very much unless you blow one heckuva lot more powder down the bore for the same size bullet. Diminishing returns, big time! __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

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