How do you tell which components a rifle "likes"?

kotengu · April 29, 2002, 11:42 AM

While waiting on my Vandenberg masterpiece (match grade FAL)I've been continuing to scour the web so I can better understand proper load development, and I'm curious about the idea of "tuning a load" to your gun for accuracy.
I understand different powder charges may or may not jive with the harmonics of a barrel, and different bullets will travel the bore differently, but what about combinations? For example I'm starting with IMR4895, 168gr Sierra Matchkings, Lake City Brass, and Federal Primers. Will trying a different brass (of course reducing the powder charge and working back up) affect the mix of the bullet, primer, and powder?

In other words, if a powder is consistant I would think it would be that way no matter which bullet you use with it, and you just have to find the charge that happens to work well with your barrel. Same goes for bullets - if they and your barrel work well together, will it know which powder is pushing it? Having thought about it some, I can see how some primers may work better with some powders than others, but again isn't consistancy the key?

I think I'm having trouble saying this the right way, but could certain combinations of powder/brass/primers/bullets work better than others, or is there going to be one bullet that shoots best in my gun, then I use that bullet and try it with several powders until I find the powder that works best in my gun, then do the same with primers, and brass?

Thanks in advance - sorry for my rambling way of asking the question,
Matt

C.R.Sam · April 29, 2002, 03:43 PM

A wealth of combinations.

Rifle could react differently with different powders even tho other componants are the same and loaded to same velocity.

Different burning rates will give defferent shape to the pressure curve. And thus different rates of acceleration to the same velocity.

Excuse to shoot a LOT.

Sam

Gewehr98 · April 29, 2002, 06:42 PM

It's an excuse to shoot a lot, and DOCUMENT load performance a lot.

C.R.Sam · April 29, 2002, 07:38 PM

Me bad. Ass u med documentation.

Thanks Gewehr98

Sam

ms1200 · April 29, 2002, 09:54 PM

only one way take it out and shoot as many different combinations as you can.

Art Eatman · April 30, 2002, 12:06 AM

Benchrest competition is necessarily nit-pickier than most other shooting, so I'll leave that out.

I've never found brand of primer to make any difference in my group sizes.

I've usually loaded to the max, for hunting; less total number of rounds through a hunting rifle, so "burnout" is less of a concern. However, one or two grains less than max is generally a bit better for accuracy.

In 30 caliber, most folks shoot a 168-grain boat-tailed bullet. Only your rifle can tell you whether a soft-point or hollow-point is best, and/or which brand is best. Buy as few bullets as possible and load five of each and see what happens, I guess. That's always been a good system for me.

The pressure curve for 4895 is pretty much the accepted standard for the Garand and the M1A. If you go to slower powders, you might drop back a grain or two so as not to have a bit too-high pressure at the gas port--won't hurt the operating rod, that way.

AND KEEP RECORDS! (Do as I say, not as I do.

)

FWIW, Art

KP95DAO · April 30, 2002, 08:05 AM

First off, don't assume that because many people shoot 168 gr bthp match bullets that they are the best for your gun. Both Savage 10FPs that my son andd I have have never shot those bullets worth a damn. However, those rifles like the Sierra 165 gr bthp Game King bullets and now that the throat on mine has extended itself .2" of an inch, my gun shoots Sierra 180 gr Spitzer flatbased GameKing bullets into a 5/8" 10 shot group at 100 yds on a regular basis, like yesterday.

You will note one thing; these are all Sierra bullets and that is where I suggest you start looking for the "right" bullet for your rifle.

El Loco Lobo · May 2, 2002, 02:53 AM

since your rifle is a match grade target work is the main use?
the brass needs to be of good quality and true to round, and a high quality set of dies. If your bullet isn't straight into the case it won't shoot straight.
depending on how anal your are case prep can be quick and painless to flash hole cleaning, trim to over all length, turn the neck, check volume of the cases and match them into lots, etc.
every Sat. go to the range with a new batch and ENJOY the fruits of your labor. as the groups get smaller the difference in charges should get smaller i.e. if you start with a load of 38 grains and 40 grains of IMR4895 next step would be 1/2 grain one either side of the best group then shoot and check.
most important is dont get discuraged to quickly the elusive 3 shot one hole at 100 yards may getcha when you least expect it

Mikul · May 2, 2002, 10:36 AM

The length of your cases is probably the most critical. They all need to be exactly the same length. Beyond that, try different bullet weights. Talk to Vandenberg and ask them what they recommend. The twist rate in the barrel may dictate a certain weight.

Fatelvis · May 2, 2002, 06:26 PM

I think you`re on the right track, with your component selection. What you`re using is pretty much time proven, in 308. Some people watch the standard deviation on thier chrono`s readings, and try to shrink them as small as possible, believing that it is evidence of a more accurate load. Good luck-

April 29, 2002, 11:42 AM	#1
kotengu Member Join Date: November 21, 2001 Location: Cookeville, TN Posts: 71	How do you tell which components a rifle "likes"? While waiting on my Vandenberg masterpiece (match grade FAL)I've been continuing to scour the web so I can better understand proper load development, and I'm curious about the idea of "tuning a load" to your gun for accuracy. I understand different powder charges may or may not jive with the harmonics of a barrel, and different bullets will travel the bore differently, but what about combinations? For example I'm starting with IMR4895, 168gr Sierra Matchkings, Lake City Brass, and Federal Primers. Will trying a different brass (of course reducing the powder charge and working back up) affect the mix of the bullet, primer, and powder? In other words, if a powder is consistant I would think it would be that way no matter which bullet you use with it, and you just have to find the charge that happens to work well with your barrel. Same goes for bullets - if they and your barrel work well together, will it know which powder is pushing it? Having thought about it some, I can see how some primers may work better with some powders than others, but again isn't consistancy the key? I think I'm having trouble saying this the right way, but could certain combinations of powder/brass/primers/bullets work better than others, or is there going to be one bullet that shoots best in my gun, then I use that bullet and try it with several powders until I find the powder that works best in my gun, then do the same with primers, and brass? Thanks in advance - sorry for my rambling way of asking the question, Matt

April 29, 2002, 06:42 PM	#3
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	If I may add to Sam's wisdom... It's an excuse to shoot a lot, and DOCUMENT load performance a lot.

April 29, 2002, 03:43 PM	#2
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	A wealth of combinations. Rifle could react differently with different powders even tho other componants are the same and loaded to same velocity. Different burning rates will give defferent shape to the pressure curve. And thus different rates of acceleration to the same velocity. Excuse to shoot a LOT. Sam

April 29, 2002, 07:38 PM	#4
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Me bad. Ass u med documentation. Thanks Gewehr98 Sam

April 29, 2002, 09:54 PM	#5
ms1200 Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2002 Posts: 133	only one way take it out and shoot as many different combinations as you can.

April 30, 2002, 12:06 AM	#6
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Benchrest competition is necessarily nit-pickier than most other shooting, so I'll leave that out. I've never found brand of primer to make any difference in my group sizes. I've usually loaded to the max, for hunting; less total number of rounds through a hunting rifle, so "burnout" is less of a concern. However, one or two grains less than max is generally a bit better for accuracy. In 30 caliber, most folks shoot a 168-grain boat-tailed bullet. Only your rifle can tell you whether a soft-point or hollow-point is best, and/or which brand is best. Buy as few bullets as possible and load five of each and see what happens, I guess. That's always been a good system for me. The pressure curve for 4895 is pretty much the accepted standard for the Garand and the M1A. If you go to slower powders, you might drop back a grain or two so as not to have a bit too-high pressure at the gas port--won't hurt the operating rod, that way. AND KEEP RECORDS! (Do as I say, not as I do. ) FWIW, Art

April 30, 2002, 08:05 AM	#7
KP95DAO Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2000 Posts: 699	First off, don't assume that because many people shoot 168 gr bthp match bullets that they are the best for your gun. Both Savage 10FPs that my son andd I have have never shot those bullets worth a damn. However, those rifles like the Sierra 165 gr bthp Game King bullets and now that the throat on mine has extended itself .2" of an inch, my gun shoots Sierra 180 gr Spitzer flatbased GameKing bullets into a 5/8" 10 shot group at 100 yds on a regular basis, like yesterday. You will note one thing; these are all Sierra bullets and that is where I suggest you start looking for the "right" bullet for your rifle.

May 2, 2002, 02:53 AM	#8
El Loco Lobo Member Join Date: April 8, 2002 Location: East Helena, MT Posts: 33	since your rifle is a match grade target work is the main use? the brass needs to be of good quality and true to round, and a high quality set of dies. If your bullet isn't straight into the case it won't shoot straight. depending on how anal your are case prep can be quick and painless to flash hole cleaning, trim to over all length, turn the neck, check volume of the cases and match them into lots, etc. every Sat. go to the range with a new batch and ENJOY the fruits of your labor. as the groups get smaller the difference in charges should get smaller i.e. if you start with a load of 38 grains and 40 grains of IMR4895 next step would be 1/2 grain one either side of the best group then shoot and check. most important is dont get discuraged to quickly the elusive 3 shot one hole at 100 yards may getcha when you least expect it

May 2, 2002, 10:36 AM	#9
Mikul Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2000 Posts: 1,396	The length of your cases is probably the most critical. They all need to be exactly the same length. Beyond that, try different bullet weights. Talk to Vandenberg and ask them what they recommend. The twist rate in the barrel may dictate a certain weight.

May 2, 2002, 06:26 PM	#10
Fatelvis Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Lockport, IL Posts: 490	I think you`re on the right track, with your component selection. What you`re using is pretty much time proven, in 308. Some people watch the standard deviation on thier chrono`s readings, and try to shrink them as small as possible, believing that it is evidence of a more accurate load. Good luck-