Reduced Rifle Loads

[444]

I just started playing around with bullet casting. I probably won't get into it real big, but thought I ought to buy a few moulds and a lead furnace looking toward the day when we can't get ammo (like California's 5 cent/round tax proposal). Anyway, one of the moulds I bought was a 180 grain, .311 mould to that I can use in my .303 Brits, and also in 7.62x54R. I assumed that the Lee loading manual would have reduced loads in these calibers, but no dice. They do however have a formula for finding reduced loads if you know what velocity you are looking to achieve. They also have a few paragraphs that talk about using fast pistol powders for absolute minimum loads using pure lead roundballs. In the reduced load section, they are using regular rifle powder. I was wondering just how low I could go using rifle powder. I was thinking that 1000 to maybe 1500 fps would be all the velocity I would need to plink around at 25 yards or so. Using the formula given in the Lee Book I calculated a powder charge that was less than half the minimum charge listed in the manual for a normal load. How low can you go ? Do you think I would be better off using a reduced charge of something like 2400 ? Anyone got any experience here ?

[Pampers]

Both Speer and Accurate Arms reloading Manuals include reduced Loads. Speer mostly recommends SR4759. Accurate Arms had 5744, and (believe it or not) 8700.

I use SR4759 & 5744, but haven't tried the 8700 yet.


Yr. Obt. Svn.

[C.R.Sam]

Lyman also has some cast loads. Of assorted strengths.

I have used a 30-06 180gr cast at about 1,050 fps (subsonic) that was quite accurate out to 200 yds.

Sam

[MADISON]

444:
Get access to the Lee Loading manual. On pages 90 through 93 they have an article on a "cite" little program you can buy from Lee for $5.00.
The program allows you to use your normal powder to load reduced "squib"loads, using jacketed or cast bullets. I reload .22 Hornet and .223 Remmington down to 1850 FPS.

[444]

Reverse order: Madison. I have the Lee Manual and the BASIC program is in there. The equation is fairly simple and I ran through it the other day using a .30-06 load with 44 grains of H4895 at 2600fps. The question I have still remains, is there a problem with reducing these loads by around half what they list in the manual ? I know that there is an issue with reducing charges of H110 in pistol cartridges. I never heard that about rifle powders but didn't want to try it without asking around about it.

C.R. Sam: what was this subsonic load you were using in the '06 ? I am sure it would be good for the 7.62x54R.

I actually have all the loading manuals that have been mentioned. I guess I really need to spend more time looking at them instead of trying to get information off the internet.

[Jim Watson]

I have done good shooting with cast bullets in .30-06 and loads of 7 and 12 grains of 700X, 16 and 20 grains of 2400, and 18 grains of 4227. I have also used recommended loads of 4198, Norma 200, H322, 4759 and 5744, but since I have no interest in trying for full charge cast bullet loads, I had just as well stick with the fast powders. That load of 7 grains 700X shot 165 grain Laser Cast plainbase into 1.9" at 100 yards, with 4 of the five in 1.1". Four and a flyer like that is pretty common with commercial cast bullets, they just can't do the inspection an individual hand caster can. Twelve grains was more accurate, 1.5" and 4/5 under an inch, but you could actually hear and feel the gun go off. I will definitely be doing more with that setup.

[Stryker]

You should get the Lyman Cast Bullet Book. Not only does it have loads for all calibers, but also tons of info on casting.

[cukrus]

I've been working on cast loads for .308 Win and have come up with a few prefernces.
For very light loads (under 1200 fps) with soft alloy (BH 9-12) fast powders light Red Dot, Green Dot, SR4759 and PB are suitable. The PB was most consistent on the chrono, and I've had the SR4759 under 1000 fps accurate past 50 yds.
Medium light loads (up to 1600 fps) with an alloy BH 12 or better do well with 2400, 4198.
For medium heavy loads (up to 2100 fps) with a hard bullet (BH 22 of better, linotype or heat treated, with gas checks) I use H322 or 748. These are my most accurate loads.
Full power or heavy loads with jacket bullets just seem too much for me and my wife.
The slower powders don't seem to burn as cleanly and lose accuracy at lower velocities compared to the faster powders.
I use a grain of Dacron for filler (helps consitency of powder ignition), heard this isn't necessry with XMP 5744, the next powder I'm gonna try. So many good choices. Ars longa, vita brevis.

[Fatelvis]

444, I reload 303 Brit with one load, after trying many. Jim Watson was right on the money, with one of his recommendations. Your 180 grn. cast bullet over 16 grns. 2400, and a standard primer. Mild, accurate, and position insensitive. Good luck, and tell us what you had the best luck with!

[Jim Watson]

I got that one from Ed Harris. He says it will work in any of the traditional full power calibers like .30-06, 7mm, 8mm, 7.62x54R, .303 and likely .30-40 or .308 but best look them up to be sure. He also reported shooting up a keg of Red Dot left over when he quit loading shotshells at 13 grains a whack in those cases. That is where I got the idea for my load of 12 grains of 700X, being as it is a little faster powder. Seven grains is in the range of loads he recommends for fast shotgun and pistol powders for subsonic or transsonic loads.

[Paul B.]

444. You should slug your bores to find out what their true diameter is. I've seen .303 Brit's that had bores as large as .315". If your mold casts a bullet that is only .314", it's gonna lead like hell.
As to powder charges, I think you can go too low with some of the powders, even those as fast burning as IMR-3031.
I used 19.0 gr. of IMR-4895 in a 6.5 M/S and ran into borderline problems with what may have been a pressure excursion.
I do prefer having my bullets be .002" over bore diameter.
An accurate load in my .308 Win., is a 180 gr. bullet with 25 gr. IMR-4895. I put a peice of Dacron, weighing one grain over the powder charge to hold it against the primer. Recoil is mild, and the load is accurate. I do seat the bullet so it just kisses the rifling. I shoot this load in a private postal competition among friend scattered all over the globe, and while they are using jacketed bullets, I use my cast lead load, and have even taken one first place.
If you need help, feel free to E-mail me. We need more lead shooters in this country.
Paul B.

[C.R.Sam]

444,,,,,my subsonic ought six loads were about 10gr 4227, kapoc filler, behind 180 chilled wheel weight with no gas check. No leading.

Sam

[444]

Thanks for all the replies. I got a little information myself.

I E-mailed Alliant. They replied and said that they don't provide that kind of information, but the guy who actually wrote the E-Mail told me about an article he read about reduced loads; the bottom line was 13 grains of Red Dot.

I called Hogdon. The guy told my to fill a case to the top with 4895 and weigh the charge. Then use a load of half that much.

The equation mentioned by Madison would result in a charge of 17.8 grains of 4895.

I have the Lyman Cast Bullet handbook. I also bought the cast bullet book by Vernal Smith, and the cast bullet book by Beartooth bullets.

I have slugged some of my bores. I own four Enfields, all in .303. One Polish M44, One Russian 91/30, and three Finn M39s that I have been using .311-.312 jacketed bullets in. I intend to use these cast bullets in them all. The bullets are bigger than .311 out of the mould, although I never actually measured them yet. Then I have a sizer for .311. I will play around and see what performs the best.

[ancien]

Hello 444,
Suggest you obtain a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet
Handbook (their Reloading Handbook isn't bad either). The manual is the source for reloading
lead bullets in both rifle and pistols, with loads
they found to be the most potentially accurate marked. I tend to favor heavier than "normal"
bullet weights, as these have proven to me the most accurate in my rifles. I.E. I loaded a 190gr
.308 hardcast bullet in my .308. Very accurate
and mild recoil. We used to live up in the backcountry of the Sierra and my wife saw a coyote
harassing our livestock. She grabbed the little
.308, sighted and fired. To her surprise, (she was in the cabin when she fired) the bullet penetrated
the window sill, reached out the 100yds and dropped the critter dead with one shot.
Shooting lead instead of jacketed bullets also
allows you to use your favorite rifle more with
less cost. The only word of caution I'd offer is
that the results with bullets of 6.5mm or smaller
tend to produced less than satisfactory results.
Shooting lead bullets opens up a whole new horizon
to one's shooting experience.
rgds,
ancien

[444]

I tried several of the loads suggested to me. I used my Finnish M39 (VKT) with the issue sights. I tested the loads at 25 and 50 yards using my standard benchrest (the rear fender of my pickup). Bullets were 180 grain, cast from a Lee mould. Bullets were cast from straight wheelweights and dropped from the mould into water. Bullets were lubed with Alox, sized to .311, and a gas check installed. The following are some basic results:

#1) 10 grains of IMR 4227. Chronoed at 909 fps. Accuracy was very good. Shot about 3 1/2" low at 25 yards with the rear sight set at 150 meters, and about 5 1/4" low at 50 yards with the rear sight set at 200 meters.
#2) 16 grains of 2400. Chronoed at 1532 fps. Accuracy was very good. Shot about 4 inches low with rear sight set two clicks above 150 meters at 25 meters and about 5" low at 50 yards with the rear sight set at 200 meters.
#3) 12 grains 700X, accuracy terrible, shot way low. Lost interest and didn't write down chrono data.
#4) 13 grains of Red Dot. Chronoed at 1535 fps. Accuracy fair. Bullets looked like they were keyholing at 25 yards, but then looked fine at 50 ?????? Also shot way to the left.
#4) 25 grains of 4895 (military surplus CMR100). Chronoed 1671 fps. Accuracy good. Shot 1 1/2" high at 25 yards with rear sight set at 500 meters. Shot 3" high at 50 yards with rear sight set for 500 meters.

So, IMR 4227, 2400, and 4895 are the finalists. I will mull over the pros and cons of each one. I have about 10 pounds of 2400. I have six pounds of CMR100 and it is cheap. The 4227 load is subsonic and very quiet. It also shoots close to point of aim which can easily correct with the sights. Each seem to have their pluses. Oh, and no barrel leading at all was noted.

[C.R.Sam]

[ryucasta]

http://www.nucleus.com/~cronhelm/subsonic.html

[MADISON]

444:
It is true there are possible problems when you reduce any bottle neck case contents below the neck, I load 223 and 22 Hornet, with No problem.
I suppose that with a larger 30-06 case you would have to have to use a certain amount of powder. I have heard of loads LIKE 15 gr 4227. This is not a load I can say will work. Work DOWN slowly.
MADISON

[444]

I have been playing with this some more. I tried 50 rounds of 20 grains CMR 100 with cast bullets out of both the 7.62x54R and .30-06. Seems to be a great practice/plinking load. I have been practicing with my hunting rifle by shooting off hand at a steel plate at 100 yards using this load. I think it will make a difference next hunting season. It also seems like this load shoots pretty good at longish ranges as long as you have enough sight elevation. I was dropping rounds consistently into the A-zone of a silhouette at over 200 yards with my Finn M39 with the rear sight set at 600 meters.
Another load I have been having a lot of fun with is a single "0" buckshot pellet over two grains of Red Dot. In the '06, I sized the ball to .309". In the 7.62x54R I seated the unsized ball into an unsized but primed case and then crimped. I open up the case mouth with a Lyman "M" die and seat the ball at about the midpoint; in the Russian round the ball doesn't quite make it to the midpoint (circumference). Out to maybe 25 yards this load will shoot into one hole and is about as loud as someone clapping their hands.

[labgrade]

Too, for some other reduced loads see Shoot Cheap post @TFL ...

Lead's great.