The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 14, 2024, 04:27 PM   #151
The Verminator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2013
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by PzGren View Post
My son is an emergency physician and worked in Northern Ohio during his residency and has seen single .22 l.r rounds being lethal while multiple hits with 9mm and .40 SW were survived. Even head shots.

It should be noted that the 9mm and .40 were FMJ and that lethality and incapacitation are not exactly the same.

Being able to perform the Bil Drill successfully with a 9mm is probably better than slow fire ( one shot per second ) and misses from a .45 ACP or .44 Rem Mag.
I asked that question of a guy who said he had seen all these gun battles with various calibers.

He never did answer.

I was just wondering.

It had to be somebody like Jim Cirillo or Bill Allard, I thought.........but they're both dead.

Point is, precious few of us have actually SEEN a lot of gunfights.

Which is why, I guess, we get so many reports of some guy who heard from another guy who said he had seen this or that.......proving........something.

So........isn't it about time for another post saying that a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44 Magnum?

It's been at least two pages since somebody gifted us with that old cliche.

The Verminator is offline  
Old May 14, 2024, 06:17 PM   #152
jar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2001
Location: Deep South Texas
Posts: 1,683
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Verminator View Post
So........isn't it about time for another post saying that a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44 Magnum?

It's been at least two pages since somebody gifted us with that old cliche.

All that long and the cliche is still true.
__________________
To be vintage it's gotta be older than me!
jar is online now  
Old May 15, 2024, 07:35 AM   #153
PzGren
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2001
Posts: 1,265
I had the misfortune of living in dangerous Third World country where shootings, robberies, and kidnappings are part of what is to be expected every day.

I had learnt quickly that my S&W 64 did not have the capacity that was needed against multiple opponents and carried a Glock religiously wherever I went but had an AK with 7.62 HP ammo around the house.

I have seen people soak up half a dozen rounds without being incapacitated and I have seen a man that was dropped with one shot of birdshot at around 20 feet and trust me, he will not give anybody dirty looks again.

So when I read that some dude who hasn't been there is writing about old cliches, I can only smile mildly. Some of those "cliches" from men like the colonel are about mindset, skill and assessment of one's abilities and have become the basis of defensive shooting.

Confidence into one's skills is very comforting when bad situations start developing.

Everybody who signs up to a gun forum is, or course, a naturally born gun fighter and the skill level increases with post count, no range time necessary.
PzGren is offline  
Old May 15, 2024, 09:48 AM   #154
The Verminator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2013
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 419
A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44 Magnum.

And a hit with a .44 Magnum is better than a miss with a .22.

A broad axe to the forehead is better than a teaspoon to the knee.

A hit with a bicycle is better than a miss with a loaded cement truck.

Being decapitated by a broadsword is a far more serious injury than being poked with a pencil.

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Thank you, Mr. Obvious.
The Verminator is offline  
Old May 16, 2024, 08:16 AM   #155
Gunfu_blaster
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2021
Posts: 3
The biggest one you can use effectively.
Gunfu_blaster is offline  
Old May 18, 2024, 10:04 AM   #156
ChuteTheMall
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 1999
Location: Sinkholeville Swamp
Posts: 230
Cliches don't endure unless they are usually true.

Everyone's needs are different: some might value availability, others might prefer boutique ammo. Cost might even be a factor, if it limits practice. Recoil might limit practice, and the need for smaller and lighter guns might increase recoil. Old age, arthritis, or hand injuries might make recoil a factor limiting practice, even if premium ammo gets carried often but shot rarely.

Certainly, bigger is better when it comes to terminal ballistics. No argument there.
But there are so many other considerations affecting speed and accuracy.

I shoot 9mm best, thru a G17 or G26, but here in FL we don't wear cover garments.

I carry G42 and/or P32 more often (.380 or .32) so every range session I try to practice with the pocket guns too.
They are not as fast or as accurate in my hands, have less capacity, and less terminal effectiveness. So they are less fun.
But they are far more likely to be carried on my person, and RULE ONE is have a gun even if it's a tired cliche.

If I have time to go back to get my bigger gun, I'll just keep going.
__________________
ChuteTheMallGawdSortaMount
ChuteTheMall is offline  
Old May 18, 2024, 12:51 PM   #157
Red Devil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2010
Posts: 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuteTheMall View Post
Everyone's needs are different...
Disagree.

For this problem, Everyone's need is the same - to stop the threat ahead of violence.

And, while there is more that one way to skin this cat, the quickest way is generally the best.

Only hits count.
- Better hits count more.
- Bigger hits count more.
- More hits count more.




Red
Red Devil is offline  
Old May 18, 2024, 06:01 PM   #158
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,458
Quote:
Originally posted by Red Devil
For this problem, Everyone's need is the same - to stop the threat ahead of violence.

And, while there is more that one way to skin this cat, the quickest way is generally the best.

Only hits count.
- Better hits count more.
- Bigger hits count more.
- More hits count more.
But which hits count most? Do more hits count more than better hits? Do better hits count more than bigger hits? Do bigger hits count more than more hits?

For example, is six hits of .44 Magnum better than 15 hits of 9mm? Is one really good hit of .22 LR better than an ok hit with 9mm? Is ten mediocre hits with any caliber better than one really good hit of the same?
Webleymkv is offline  
Old May 18, 2024, 08:37 PM   #159
Red Devil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2010
Posts: 297
Only hits count.
- Accuracy
- Size
- Speed/Capacity

Don't hurt yourself overthinking it.


GR
Red Devil is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 10:17 AM   #160
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,458
Quote:
Originally posted by Red Devil
Only hits count.
- Accuracy
- Size
- Speed/Capacity

Don't hurt yourself overthinking it.
It sounds simple, but it really isn't. Nothing exists in a vacuum and everything is a trade off. By and large, smaller calibers are easier to shoot quickly and accurately and hold more ammunition than larger calibers do. Also, those aren't the only three factors that play into the choice of a defensive handgun as size, price, ease of use, practicality, and in some jurisdictions legality all can be potential factors. A duty-sized 9mm like a Glock 17 or Beretta 92 is very easy to shoot well for many people and holds a good supply of ammunition, but it's also too big, bulky, and heavy for many people to regularly carry. A full-sized government model 1911 in .45 ACP can be shot very well by a great many people and shoots a bigger, more powerful bullet than the 9mm does, but it may not be quite as easy to shoot and certainly doesn't hold as many rounds. The crux of the question is whether or not a larger more powerful cartridge is advantageous enough to offset the greater ease in shooting and increased capacity of a smaller, weaker one and that is a debate that we've never achieved a consensus on and it's doubtful that we will anytime soon.
Webleymkv is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 11:35 AM   #161
Red Devil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2010
Posts: 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webleymkv View Post
It sounds simple, but it really isn't. Nothing exists in a vacuum and everything is a trade off. By and large, smaller calibers are easier to shoot quickly and accurately and hold more ammunition than larger calibers do. Also, those aren't the only three factors that play into the choice of a defensive handgun as size, price, ease of use, practicality, and in some jurisdictions legality all can be potential factors. A duty-sized 9mm like a Glock 17 or Beretta 92 is very easy to shoot well for many people and holds a good supply of ammunition, but it's also too big, bulky, and heavy for many people to regularly carry. A full-sized government model 1911 in .45 ACP can be shot very well by a great many people and shoots a bigger, more powerful bullet than the 9mm does, but it may not be quite as easy to shoot and certainly doesn't hold as many rounds. The crux of the question is whether or not a larger more powerful cartridge is advantageous enough to offset the greater ease in shooting and increased capacity of a smaller, weaker one and that is a debate that we've never achieved a consensus on and it's doubtful that we will anytime soon.
Academic nonsense.

Outcome is determined by:

Only hits count.
- Better hits count more.
- Bigger hits count more.
- More hits count more.




Red
Red Devil is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 11:44 AM   #162
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,458
Quote:
Originally posted by Red Devil
Academic nonsense.

Outcome is determined by:

Only hits count.
- Better hits count more.
- Bigger hits count more.
- More hits count more.
So what point are you trying to make and how does it relate to what caliber someone should choose for self-defense? Should you choose the caliber you can make the best hits with, the one you can make the biggest hits with, or the one you can make the most hits with? I don't disagree that bigger, better, and more hits are better, but which one is most important? I can make good hits reasonably fast with my .44 Magnum, but I can make just as good if not better hits a lot faster with my 9mm and I can do it a lot more before having to reload, so which one is better?
Webleymkv is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 12:03 PM   #163
The Verminator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2013
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Devil View Post
Academic nonsense.

Outcome is determined by:

Only hits count.
- Better hits count more.
- Bigger hits count more.
- More hits count more.

Red
First of all, Web's post was not nonsense of any kind.

Second, isn't your post stuff that's been said a million times?

And how could "More hits" count less?

One can only respond......yes, obviously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am3FjwsNqXc
The Verminator is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 12:34 PM   #164
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,957
The problem with these kinds of discussions, is that there is no standard that can be applied fairly to all situations, other than "worked or didn't work" and that isn't a standard, its a statement of results.

Every caliber has been used for self defense has examples of it working, and not working.

There is a documented case of a guy taking 2 (two) 12ga slugs to the chest, and running away!!

He didn't run far, but he did run away...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 01:06 PM   #165
The Verminator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2013
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 419
That's why we're left with the FBI conclusion about what works best for our average Homo sapiens most of the time.

There's no perfect answer--just the compromise 9mm.

The Verminator is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 04:27 PM   #166
Red Devil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2010
Posts: 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Verminator View Post
First of all, Web's post was not nonsense of any kind.

Second, isn't your post stuff that's been said a million times?

And how could "More hits" count less?

One can only respond......yes, obviously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am3FjwsNqXc
Your emotion outburst, vitriol, and hyperbole are obviously interfering with your reading for content ability.

Where does the word "less" appear in the post?

That it is not as important as good hits and bigger hits?

For the simple facts that:

- It takes more ammo to make more hits.
- It takes more time to make more hits.
- it takes more shots to make more hits,
... of which every one is a potential miss.

So, needing a high capacity magazine and being in a hurry to miss,
because you chose your SD round poorly?

Doesn't trump a better round well placed.




Red
Red Devil is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 05:44 PM   #167
The Verminator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2013
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Devil View Post
Your emotion outburst, vitriol, and hyperbole are obviously interfering with your reading for content ability.
Red
Well, at least it wasn't my fake eyelashes.

The Verminator is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 05:49 PM   #168
The Verminator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2013
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Devil View Post

Where does the word "less" appear in the post?

Red
I didn't say that it did.
The Verminator is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 05:57 PM   #169
The Verminator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2013
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 419
And don't misunderstand me.

When I call the .40 a failed round I don't mean it's no good.

What I mean is that it has failed as a police and government caliber.

I doubt that the military ever considered it.......they do have some experts.

The .40 is an excellent round for those who can handle it.

It's just not a good recommendation for the beginning shooter or general law enforcement work.
The Verminator is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 07:04 PM   #170
Red Devil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2010
Posts: 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Verminator View Post
And don't misunderstand me.

When I call the .40 a failed round I don't mean it's no good.

What I mean is that it has failed as a police and government caliber.

I doubt that the military ever considered it.......they do have some experts.

The .40 is an excellent round for those who can handle it.

It's just not a good recommendation for the beginning shooter or general law enforcement work.
The .40 S&W is a superior round and has considerably higher bullet reliability.

There are also excuses not to use it.

The Military already traded effectiveness for ammo capacity.

The 9mm is easier for grandmas to shoot and FBI secretaries to qualify with.

A 9mm micro pistol makes a nice minimum carry.

That's about it.




Red
Red Devil is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 07:17 PM   #171
The Verminator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2013
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Devil View Post
The .40 S&W is a superior round and has considerably higher bullet reliability.

There are also excuses not to use it.

The Military already traded effectiveness for ammo capacity.

The 9mm is easier for grandmas to shoot and FBI secretaries to qualify with.
Red
Do you have any evidence that grandmas and FBI secretaries have to qualify with the handgun?

When you say the .40 is superior is that because it's more powerful than the 9mm?
The Verminator is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 09:35 PM   #172
Red Devil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2010
Posts: 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Verminator View Post
Do you have any evidence that grandmas and FBI secretaries have to qualify with the handgun?

When you say the .40 is superior is that because it's more powerful than the 9mm?
Cross-pollinating, from the .40 S&W thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Devil View Post
Given the disparity in both impact Energy and expanded bullet area, ~ 3:4 for both, that gives the .40 S&W a (1.33)^2 advantage, round it to 1.77.

That's over Three 9mm hits(3.54) for every Two(2) .40 S&W hits.

And since that extra hit-and-a-half includes the probability of a miss, call it 1:3, it leaves a pretty solid Two(2) extra rounds fired, on top of the Two initial hits, to equal Two hits from a .40 S&W.

So, one would need a 9mm magazine with Twice(2x) the capacity of the .40 S&W, not simply the Two or so additional rounds in a std. capacity service pistol.

Along with the extra time and collateral damage incurred while shooting those extra hits... and misses.



Red
Red Devil is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 09:54 PM   #173
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,940
IINM: The rationale for 9mm (with MUCH improved ammunition) was that the probability of multiple hits in a very time-limited gunfight interval was much higher than the higher recoil 40S&W across the board.

That this probability only improved as smaller-framed humans were increasingly exposed to/involved in combat situations sealed the deal.

On balance... the decision as to Good-Enough is the most difficult of all arts.
mehavey is offline  
Old May 21, 2024, 11:13 PM   #174
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 25,053
Quote:
Given the disparity in both impact Energy and expanded bullet area, ~ 3:4 for both, that gives the .40 S&W a (1.33)^2 advantage, round it to 1.77.

That's over Three 9mm hits(3.54) for every Two(2) .40 S&W hits.

And since that extra hit-and-a-half includes the probability of a miss, call it 1:3, it leaves a pretty solid Two(2) extra rounds fired, on top of the Two initial hits, to equal Two hits from a .40 S&W.

So, one would need a 9mm magazine with Twice(2x) the capacity of the .40 S&W, not simply the Two or so additional rounds in a std. capacity service pistol.

Along with the extra time and collateral damage incurred while shooting those extra hits... and misses.
Unfortunately no one has been able to come up with any evidence that this sort of "calculation" has any correlation to the outcome of real-world gunfights.

If this makes you believe that the .40S&W is better and will give you an edge in real-world gunfights, I guess that's your concern, but it isn't going to satisfy anyone who's looking for generally accepted evidence of terminal superiority.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old May 22, 2024, 01:20 AM   #175
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,957
Quote:
When I call the .40 a failed round I don't mean it's no good.

What I mean is that it has failed as a police and government caliber.
The only thing I see it has failed at is longevity as the primary cartridge.

When it was the "hot new thing" lots of govt agencies and police depts adopted it.

Quote:
I doubt that the military ever considered it.......they do have some experts.
There is no way our military ever considered it, other than POSSIBLY for some SOG operators, who, essentially get to use what ever they want...

Look how long the .45acp was the service round. Would still probably BE the service round, if we hadn't promised NATO we would adopt their 9mm, back in the 50s. And do note that we kept the .45 for around another 30 years after promising we would adopt the 9mm round. We promised we would, we never promised WHEN we would.

After adopting the 9mm in what 84?? do you honestly think the military spent any time considering adopting the .40 S&W not even 10 years later??

I would remind everyone once again, that the way the military, other govt agencies, and most law enforcement agencies work is that, when it comes to choosing the pistol round (and pistols) for their people, the choice has to perform to a minimum standard of effectiveness, it has to be deemed the best overall for the ORGANIZATION'S MISSION (NOT the individual user) AND it has to fit into their budget.

IN other words, it has to work acceptably well in use, it has to be useable by the bulk of their personell, and it has to be cheap enough to afford.

When it comes to the personal choice of a defensive caliber, and firearm for my personal use, I do not (and should not) use the same criteria that a large organization uses.

I don't think you should, either.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.09441 seconds with 10 queries