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May 14, 2024, 04:27 PM | #151 | |
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Quote:
He never did answer. I was just wondering. It had to be somebody like Jim Cirillo or Bill Allard, I thought.........but they're both dead. Point is, precious few of us have actually SEEN a lot of gunfights. Which is why, I guess, we get so many reports of some guy who heard from another guy who said he had seen this or that.......proving........something. So........isn't it about time for another post saying that a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44 Magnum? It's been at least two pages since somebody gifted us with that old cliche. |
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May 14, 2024, 06:17 PM | #152 |
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All that long and the cliche is still true.
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May 15, 2024, 07:35 AM | #153 |
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I had the misfortune of living in dangerous Third World country where shootings, robberies, and kidnappings are part of what is to be expected every day.
I had learnt quickly that my S&W 64 did not have the capacity that was needed against multiple opponents and carried a Glock religiously wherever I went but had an AK with 7.62 HP ammo around the house. I have seen people soak up half a dozen rounds without being incapacitated and I have seen a man that was dropped with one shot of birdshot at around 20 feet and trust me, he will not give anybody dirty looks again. So when I read that some dude who hasn't been there is writing about old cliches, I can only smile mildly. Some of those "cliches" from men like the colonel are about mindset, skill and assessment of one's abilities and have become the basis of defensive shooting. Confidence into one's skills is very comforting when bad situations start developing. Everybody who signs up to a gun forum is, or course, a naturally born gun fighter and the skill level increases with post count, no range time necessary. |
May 15, 2024, 09:48 AM | #154 |
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A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44 Magnum.
And a hit with a .44 Magnum is better than a miss with a .22. A broad axe to the forehead is better than a teaspoon to the knee. A hit with a bicycle is better than a miss with a loaded cement truck. Being decapitated by a broadsword is a far more serious injury than being poked with a pencil. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. Thank you, Mr. Obvious. |
May 16, 2024, 08:16 AM | #155 |
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The biggest one you can use effectively.
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May 18, 2024, 10:04 AM | #156 |
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Cliches don't endure unless they are usually true.
Everyone's needs are different: some might value availability, others might prefer boutique ammo. Cost might even be a factor, if it limits practice. Recoil might limit practice, and the need for smaller and lighter guns might increase recoil. Old age, arthritis, or hand injuries might make recoil a factor limiting practice, even if premium ammo gets carried often but shot rarely. Certainly, bigger is better when it comes to terminal ballistics. No argument there. But there are so many other considerations affecting speed and accuracy. I shoot 9mm best, thru a G17 or G26, but here in FL we don't wear cover garments. I carry G42 and/or P32 more often (.380 or .32) so every range session I try to practice with the pocket guns too. They are not as fast or as accurate in my hands, have less capacity, and less terminal effectiveness. So they are less fun. But they are far more likely to be carried on my person, and RULE ONE is have a gun even if it's a tired cliche. If I have time to go back to get my bigger gun, I'll just keep going.
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May 18, 2024, 12:51 PM | #157 |
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Disagree.
For this problem, Everyone's need is the same - to stop the threat ahead of violence. And, while there is more that one way to skin this cat, the quickest way is generally the best. Only hits count. - Better hits count more. - Bigger hits count more. - More hits count more. Red |
May 18, 2024, 06:01 PM | #158 | |
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Quote:
For example, is six hits of .44 Magnum better than 15 hits of 9mm? Is one really good hit of .22 LR better than an ok hit with 9mm? Is ten mediocre hits with any caliber better than one really good hit of the same? |
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May 18, 2024, 08:37 PM | #159 |
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Only hits count.
- Accuracy - Size - Speed/Capacity Don't hurt yourself overthinking it. GR |
May 21, 2024, 10:17 AM | #160 | |
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Quote:
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May 21, 2024, 11:35 AM | #161 | |
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Quote:
Outcome is determined by: Only hits count. - Better hits count more. - Bigger hits count more. - More hits count more. Red |
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May 21, 2024, 11:44 AM | #162 | |
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Quote:
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May 21, 2024, 12:03 PM | #163 | |
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Quote:
Second, isn't your post stuff that's been said a million times? And how could "More hits" count less? One can only respond......yes, obviously. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am3FjwsNqXc |
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May 21, 2024, 12:34 PM | #164 |
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The problem with these kinds of discussions, is that there is no standard that can be applied fairly to all situations, other than "worked or didn't work" and that isn't a standard, its a statement of results.
Every caliber has been used for self defense has examples of it working, and not working. There is a documented case of a guy taking 2 (two) 12ga slugs to the chest, and running away!! He didn't run far, but he did run away...
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May 21, 2024, 01:06 PM | #165 |
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That's why we're left with the FBI conclusion about what works best for our average Homo sapiens most of the time.
There's no perfect answer--just the compromise 9mm. |
May 21, 2024, 04:27 PM | #166 | |
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Quote:
Where does the word "less" appear in the post? That it is not as important as good hits and bigger hits? For the simple facts that: - It takes more ammo to make more hits. - It takes more time to make more hits. - it takes more shots to make more hits, ... of which every one is a potential miss. So, needing a high capacity magazine and being in a hurry to miss, because you chose your SD round poorly? Doesn't trump a better round well placed. Red |
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May 21, 2024, 05:44 PM | #167 |
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May 21, 2024, 05:49 PM | #168 |
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May 21, 2024, 05:57 PM | #169 |
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And don't misunderstand me.
When I call the .40 a failed round I don't mean it's no good. What I mean is that it has failed as a police and government caliber. I doubt that the military ever considered it.......they do have some experts. The .40 is an excellent round for those who can handle it. It's just not a good recommendation for the beginning shooter or general law enforcement work. |
May 21, 2024, 07:04 PM | #170 | |
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Quote:
There are also excuses not to use it. The Military already traded effectiveness for ammo capacity. The 9mm is easier for grandmas to shoot and FBI secretaries to qualify with. A 9mm micro pistol makes a nice minimum carry. That's about it. Red |
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May 21, 2024, 07:17 PM | #171 | |
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When you say the .40 is superior is that because it's more powerful than the 9mm? |
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May 21, 2024, 09:35 PM | #172 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
Red |
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May 21, 2024, 09:54 PM | #173 |
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IINM: The rationale for 9mm (with MUCH improved ammunition) was that the probability of multiple hits in a very time-limited gunfight interval was much higher than the higher recoil 40S&W across the board.
That this probability only improved as smaller-framed humans were increasingly exposed to/involved in combat situations sealed the deal. On balance... the decision as to Good-Enough is the most difficult of all arts. |
May 21, 2024, 11:13 PM | #174 | |
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If this makes you believe that the .40S&W is better and will give you an edge in real-world gunfights, I guess that's your concern, but it isn't going to satisfy anyone who's looking for generally accepted evidence of terminal superiority.
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May 22, 2024, 01:20 AM | #175 | ||
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When it was the "hot new thing" lots of govt agencies and police depts adopted it. Quote:
Look how long the .45acp was the service round. Would still probably BE the service round, if we hadn't promised NATO we would adopt their 9mm, back in the 50s. And do note that we kept the .45 for around another 30 years after promising we would adopt the 9mm round. We promised we would, we never promised WHEN we would. After adopting the 9mm in what 84?? do you honestly think the military spent any time considering adopting the .40 S&W not even 10 years later?? I would remind everyone once again, that the way the military, other govt agencies, and most law enforcement agencies work is that, when it comes to choosing the pistol round (and pistols) for their people, the choice has to perform to a minimum standard of effectiveness, it has to be deemed the best overall for the ORGANIZATION'S MISSION (NOT the individual user) AND it has to fit into their budget. IN other words, it has to work acceptably well in use, it has to be useable by the bulk of their personell, and it has to be cheap enough to afford. When it comes to the personal choice of a defensive caliber, and firearm for my personal use, I do not (and should not) use the same criteria that a large organization uses. I don't think you should, either.
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All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
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